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Hidden applications of a Job

chris_macartwork
Community Guru
Chris M Member Since: May 6, 2015
41 of 60

The fact that we are all unsure of whether proposals are hidden or flagged as best fit or ordered using an Upwork algorithm. or whether the hidden folder has been retired, is absolutely disgraceful.

 

As a freelancer I should have no doubt at all that my proposal is always, initially, presented to the client ordered by date of application. Period.

 

If the client wants advice from Upwork as to who to select - eg. new clients with lack of knowledge in their job post field of expertise might want some help - then have a menu (not as prominent as the actual proposal list) on a single separate menu bar which would take them to another screen.

 

Then as a freelancer I can at least be sure that my proposal will appear on the page ordered fairly by date of application and the client would have to view that page before deciding to use Upwork's selection advice.

 

Some clients might go straight for the Upwork selection advice menu button but at least they will be presented with the list of applicants in a fair manner beforehand.

 

I would know that there has been NO interference from Upwork in the initial presentation of my proposal.

 

I have no objection for the client to be able to order by most recent or oldest.

 

vladag
Community Manager
Vladimir G Community Manager Member Since: Oct 31, 2014
42 of 60

Hi Chris,

 

As we confirmed before in the Community, applicants appear in a single expandable list sorted by “best match”, which is how well we think they fit with the job requirements based on their profile and work history. There is no other visual distinction between applicants, and there are no sub-folders that applicants are sorted into.

 

Hope this clarifies any confusion.

Untitled
stephenbrightman
Community Guru
Stephen B Member Since: Dec 4, 2012
43 of 60

Vladimir ,

With respect, as you say it is an expandable list, then by definition it must be a collapsed list, so obviously some parts of it are more visible than others, whether or not they are technically in folders or hidden. It has been shown time and time again that Upwork's algorithms are woefully bad at making decisions about good matches, so it 's an unwarranted interference IMHO. If I'm applying for a job proofreading a PhD in dentistry at expert rates, I  don't want some robot putting my application way down the list below a bunch of Japanese web scrapers charging $5 per hour. I don't mind being down the list based on time of application, but that is the only criterion that should be applied. Sorry  I don't sound more positive -I do try, but my overall experience with Upwork's various attempts at automatic matching is that it is ineffective and, at the end of the day, unwarranted.

chris_macartwork
Community Guru
Chris M Member Since: May 6, 2015
44 of 60

@Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Chris,

 

As we confirmed before in the Community, applicants appear in a single expandable list sorted by “best match”, which is how well we think they fit with the job requirements based on their profile and work history. There is no other visual distinction between applicants, and there are no sub-folders that applicants are sorted into.

 

Hope this clarifies any confusion.


Hi Vladimir,

Thanks for the speedy reply.

 

Your reply clarifies the current way proposals are presented - thanks.

 

But... you are missing the point of my message.

 

You state '...how well we think they fit with the job requirements based on their profile and work history'

 

That is Upwork interfering with the way the proposals are displayed to the client. The list should have no interference - it should be listed by date of proposal.

 

Then, by all means, have a separate menu button leading to a separate window for Upwork's candidate selection advice where you can have your ordered by best fit list.

 

This is an important issue for fairness.

 

Why does Upwork interfere with the default way that proposals are presented?

 

The default display should by date of application with no flags or markers added to the proposals.

  

When Upwork interferes with the applicant list order it is effectively acting as Employment Agency would.

 

Upwork is NOT an Employment Agency. If Upwork was an Employment Agency I would not have joined.

 

Edited:

As far as I am aware - Employment Agencies have qualified recruitment experts who individually select candidates from their profiles and face to face interviews - to select the best fit employee for the client. Upwork is acting like an employment agency but without the expert recruiters and using a computer algorithm instead of face to face. A recipe for disaster - as is evident in the level of discontent and concern in the community discussions.

kat303
Community Guru
Kathy T Member Since: Jul 17, 2015
45 of 60

Vladimir = I echo what Chris M and everyone else says here. Upwork is NOT an employment agency, It is NOT Upwork's job of MATCHING contractors to job posts/clients. Upworks job is to be a platform where contractors and clients connect. Freelancing is a contractors business. We present proposals and the rate we want to be paid, and present that to the client who, on their own, will look at who they want. Clients will, on their own choose a contractor based on their rate, or work samples, or overall proposal. In any case it will be their choice, NOT Upworks choise of who's the best suited.

 

This was also apparant on Elance too. No one knew about it, but for the fact that one contractor wrote about it in the Water Cooler. She was also a client and she had short listed 2 potential contractors. Going back the next day to hire one of them, she noticed that their proposals were gone from her list. After searching around she found that Elance had decided they weren't a good match for her job, and had moved them to a "hidden" folder. Had it not been for the fact that she was both an established client and contractor who knew her way around the site, she would never have even thought of searching for the proposal that SHE decided to hire. A new client who doesn't know their way around the site and doesn't know about hidden folders would never have thought of looking for any kind of "out of the way" or hidden folders.

 

I have personally interviews employment and temp agencies. In doing so, I was personally interviewd, asked questions, made sure I was appropriately attired, presentable, and had the quelifications in my applications. I was then matched according to that, by a "live" person, experience in recruiting, to a job tha best fit my skills. For this, I had to pay a fee upfront or a portion of my earnings for a period of time was taken out by the agency. In fact in some circumstances my pay would come from the agency itself and not from the company I worked at.

 

What is the mission and purpose of this site Vladmir? Is it a site where clients/contractors connect? If so, NO robot should make the decisions on who's right and who's not for a job and hide, yes, hide because putting proposals into a seperate folder is hiding. And if it's really a sort of agency, then please announce that fact. and we can then understand the reasoning behind the choosing.

 

ALL proposals should be presented to a client either in ascending or descending order based on the date and time it was submitted. And the client should be able to see ALL IN ONE PLACE the proposals and be able to choose who they want.

suznee
Community Guru
Suzanne N Member Since: Aug 15, 2012
46 of 60

If you all think the hidden folder was bad, wait till you see the new page which is being tested. 30 recommended which are not qualified for the job. And confusing on how to get past the recommended page without hitting the job tab again to go back to the job.

 

The system still cannot determine when the job is specific for a recommendation for JSS value or country. When asking for a specific country and ranking I was presented with 30 candidates mostly new to Upwork with no JSS and all from countries I did not ask for.

 

It would be nice if they would work on making the whole process easier for the client rather then more confusing. Why clients are sending an invite to 30 different freelancers who may or may not have the skills for the job is because they are being presented before they see your application with 30 applications and a link to invite them all.

chris_macartwork
Community Guru
Chris M Member Since: May 6, 2015
47 of 60

@Suzanne N wrote:

If you all think the hidden folder was bad, wait till you see the new page which is being tested. 30 recommended which are not qualified for the job. And confusing on how to get past the recommended page without hitting the job tab again to go back to the job.

 

The system still cannot determine when the job is specific for a recommendation for JSS value or country. When asking for a specific country and ranking I was presented with 30 candidates mostly new to Upwork with no JSS and all from countries I did not ask for.

 

It would be nice if they would work on making the whole process easier for the client rather then more confusing. Why clients are sending an invite to 30 different freelancers who may or may not have the skills for the job is because they are being presented before they see your application with 30 applications and a link to invite them all.


Hi Suzanne,

Sounds like the Upwork developers are on a suicide mission! Upwork will fail if this situation isn't resolved soon.

 

I don't understand why Upwork doesn't just present in order of date of application, remove the current recommended best fit process, and then work on the algorithms until they are 100% effective.

 

In my opinion - it appears Upwork is skewing the results towards new freelancers to get revenue from wasted connects, with the excuse that they are 'giving new freelancers a chance'.

 

That's me being cynical.

suznee
Community Guru
Suzanne N Member Since: Aug 15, 2012
48 of 60

Chris,

 

I am not sure what their logic is but for a new client they may never look at your application with the list of recommended. Which I feel is wrong. 

 

I wanted someone for a job for US/CA with a specific score because I had a need for this and not one of the recommended would have fit what I was looking for. I am not opposed to hiring someone new but that said I would like to be able to view freelancers that have applied. 

 

Not a list of recommended and making it difficult to navigate away from the recommended list. New clients are not going to know that there is a whole group applying past that recommended list if they have to hit the job link to get back to the applicants.

 

This seems deliberate to me to hire someone from that recommended list. And why on earth does someone need 30 freelancers recommended to them?

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Valeria K Community Manager Member Since: Mar 6, 2014
49 of 60

Chris and Kathy,

 

We appreciate your feedback. However, currently there are no plans to sort proposals by time they were submitted. Please, refer to my earlier post on this thread for more information.

 

Thank you.

~ Valeria
Upwork
chris_macartwork
Community Guru
Chris M Member Since: May 6, 2015
50 of 60

@Valeria K wrote:

Chris and Kathy,

 

We appreciate your feedback. However, currently there are no plans to sort proposals by time they were submitted. Please, refer to my earlier post on this thread for more information.

 

Thank you.


Hi Valeria,

Thanks for your reply. But your earlier post does not address the point I was trying to make.

 

Upwork appears to be acting as an employment agency.

 

I joined Upwork to make contact with potential Clients and negotiate contracts. I really appreciate The Upwork platform for giving me that opportunity.

 

However -  I did not want to join a platform that interferes with the way that my proposal is presented to the client - as you are doing with 'best fit' and 'recommended' ordering of proposals.

 

I fully expected to have my proposals presented to the client fairly with no interference from Upwork. And if Upwork does wnat to give selection advice then it should be via a separate menu.

 

I'm going to examine your Terms and Conditions over the next few days to find out if I missed something.

 

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