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Hidden applications of a Job

chris_macartwork
Community Guru
Chris M Member Since: May 6, 2015
51 of 60

Here's a quote from part of the Upwork User Agreement (Legal Pages)

 

10. RELATIONSHIP WITH UPWORK

Upwork is not a party to the dealings between Client and Freelancer, including posts, proposals, screening selection, contracting, and performance of Freelancer Services. Upwork does not introduce Freelancers to Clients or help Freelancers find Engagements. Upwork merely makes the Site Services available to enable Freelancers to identify and determine the suitability of Clients for themselves and to enable Clients to identify and determine the suitability of Freelancers for themselves.

 

-------

 

Upwork states that they do not 'introduce Freelancers to Clients or help Freelancers find Engagements. Upwork merely makes the Site Services available...'

 

'...enable Clients to identify and determine the suitability of Freelancers for themselves.'

 

The crucial words are 'for themselves'.

 

Upwork is violating the user agreement surely? - by inserting a best fit algorithm between freelancer and client to push selected freelancers to the top of the list. They are promoting and demoting freelancers. So a Client is NOT determining the suitability of Freelancers for themselves are they.

 

Moderator please.

 

 

 

 

chris_macartwork
Community Guru
Chris M Member Since: May 6, 2015
52 of 60

I can't believe this thread has died again - ...well appears to have.

 

The hidden folder is on the way out but Upwork still interferes with the way proposals are presented to the client. I think they are violating the User Agreement - please see my previous message.

lenaellis
Moderator
Lena E Moderator Member Since: Apr 7, 2015
53 of 60

Hi Chris,

 

Upwork does not introduce freelancers to clients or help freelancers find engagements. Instead, we provide choices to clients and provide opportunities to freelancers to be exposed to clients. This is our same goal for every area of our marketplace, whether a freelancer is submitting a proposal or searching through job posts or a client is searching for freelancers or reviewing client feedback on freelancer profiles. Displaying a freelancer as a result of a search is not the same thing as introducing that freelancer to the client.

 

-Lena

Untitled
researchediting
Community Guru
Douglas Michael M Member Since: May 22, 2015
54 of 60

@Lena E wrote:

 

....Upwork does not introduce freelancers to clients or help freelancers find engagements. Instead, we provide choices to clients and provide opportunities to freelancers to be exposed to clients. This is our same goal for every area of our marketplace, whether a freelancer is submitting a proposal or searching through job posts or a client is searching for freelancers or reviewing client feedback on freelancer profiles. Displaying a freelancer as a result of a search is not the same thing as introducing that freelancer to the client.


"Upwork does not introduce freelancers to clients or help freelancers find engagements."

 

Oh really? I could probably find better uses for my commission money, then.

 

"Displaying a freelancer as a result of a search is not the same thing as introducing that freelancer to the client."

 

Neither is it quite the same thing as displaying a freelancer as a result of a search, when Upwork introduces "return/display" criteria that differ from the client's specifications (e.g. JSS or an exposure rotation scheme).

 

Best,

Michael

 

 

chris_macartwork
Community Guru
Chris M Member Since: May 6, 2015
55 of 60

@Lena E wrote:

Hi Chris,

 

Upwork does not introduce freelancers to clients or help freelancers find engagements. Instead, we provide choices to clients and provide opportunities to freelancers to be exposed to clients. This is our same goal for every area of our marketplace, whether a freelancer is submitting a proposal or searching through job posts or a client is searching for freelancers or reviewing client feedback on freelancer profiles. Displaying a freelancer as a result of a search is not the same thing as introducing that freelancer to the client.

 

-Lena


Hi Lena,

Thanks for replying, but, respectfully, as happens frequently, the point of the argument has not been fully addressed.

 

You will notice that I stressed the words 'for themselves' in my original post..

 

So - Please also address the following paragraph from my post:

---

'Upwork is violating the user agreement surely? - by inserting a best fit algorithm between freelancer and client to push selected freelancers to the top of the list. They are promoting and demoting freelancers. So a Client is NOT determining the suitability of Freelancers for themselves are they.'

---

 

I included the sentences about introduction just to lead up to the main point - ie the fact that Upwork states that the Client determines suitability for themselves. But it's plain to see that when Upwork presents the proposals to the client they are promoting or demoting freelancers.

 

If proposals were ordered by date of application with no promotion or demotion by Upwork then the Clients could determine the suitability for themselves in which case I would not have an argument.

 

 

 

 

hbbabiar
Community Leader
HB B Member Since: Aug 9, 2015
56 of 60

Chris, not sure if you've seen the following response. It represents the official Upwork position on this issue. Business as usual: broom, meet rug. Best regards, Bruno

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Why-Employers-do-NOT-see-your-Proposal/td-p/115079/page/...

 

Garnor M

Community Manager

Member Since:

‎10-30-2014

952 Posts

‎09-13-2015 07:10 PM

Hi Vadivelan and others,

 

I can confirm, and this is after speaking with our Legal team, that we are in compliance with our Terms of Service.

 

I will also confirm again that our systems/processes are built so that we can help clients and freelancers be successful here. It is in all of our best interests to help clients and freelancers find eachother so they can engage together and work together. When you succeed, and clients succeed, we succeed. We're going to continue doing what we can to foster that and that includes improving our systems (and algorithms).

 

Here's a bit more information in response to your feedback in this discussion thread:

 

Again, our top priority in freelancer search is the needs of our freelancers and our clients that use our marketplace and we must balance many competing priorities.

 

  • We want clients to be in complete control of their search results but we also want to help them along by suggesting refinements and anticipating their preferences.
  • We want to help clients find freelancers who have very relevant experience but we also want them to be able to find freelancers who are likely to respond to inquiries.
  • We want to deliver the best possible set of freelancers for any given query but we also want to deliver diverse results that give clients choices and give many freelancers an opportunity to be discovered.

 

In order to satisfy these dueling priorities, we have developed many technologies that help us to understand client needs, predict client choices, identify the most relevant freelancers, and give all of those freelancers a shot at landing on the first page of search results. This is far from an exhaustive list but here’s a peek at how we do it:

 

  • In order to understand the needs of a client, we study their project descriptions. These descriptions are often very detailed. We can use these descriptions to augment our understanding of the queries submitted by individual clients.
  • In order to predict client choices, we study how clients have selected freelancers in the past and use machine learning to anticipate their choices in the future.
  • In order to find the most relevant talent, we look at more than just a freelancer’s skills and profile. Again, we turn to the project descriptions posted by clients. We use those descriptions to better understand the freelancers who bid on and win those contracts.
  • In order to give every freelancer a fair shot, we construct many features which describe the availability of freelancers and use those features to train machine learning models which can predict whether an individual freelancer will accept a particular invitation at a specific time.

 

By using these processes, Upwork does not introduce freelancers to clients or help freelancers find engagements.   Instead, our algorithms further our priority in running our marketplace:  to provide choices to clients and to provide opportunities to freelancers to be exposed to clients.  This is our same goal for every area of our marketplace, whether a freelancer is submitting a proposal or searching through job posts or a client is searching for freelancers or reviewing client feedback on freelancer profiles.   Displaying a freelancer as a result of a search is not the same thing as introducing that freelancer to the client. 

 

Regardless of all of our efforts to make the process easier, freelancers remain completely responsible for finding their own clients and choosing and submitting proposals for projects in which they are interested.  Likewise, clients remain completely responsible for vetting, screening, and choosing their own freelancers.  We’re honored to provide the platform to make this happen.  

chris_macartwork
Community Guru
Chris M Member Since: May 6, 2015
57 of 60

Hi Bruno,

Thanks for that. A classic example of 'Legalese'. 'Terms of Service' are mentioned but I was referring to the 'User Agreement' - are they different in Legal terms I wonder.

 

In my opinion the reply from Garnor is convoluted, contradictory and confusing to say the least.

 

There is one major thing about Garnors response - it answers my concern from another post - that Upwork is acting as an Employment Agency would.

 

There is massive interference with the way that proposals are presented to the Client. As far as I am concerned Upwork is acting as an Employment Agency would.

 

If I wanted to join an Employment Agency I would have gone elsewhere, not joined Upwork.

 

Here's an example of why I think the reply was contradictory:

 

---'We want clients to be in complete control of their search results but we also want to help them along by suggesting refinements and anticipating their preferences.'---

 

So - the clients are NOT in complete control are they. And Upwork is doing a bit of mind reading! 'anticipating their preferences'.

 

Any interference with the way proposals are presented to the client should be via a menu option leading to another window.

 

The default presentation of proposals to the Client should be by date of application so that the client can choose completely for themselves who is suitable. Then if the Client wants to see Upwork's recommendations or their best fit ordering then they can use the menu option.

 

Upwork should assure us that the default display of proposals is devoid of any interference.

 

On the Freelancer side if I look at the list of applicants they are ordered by date. Why can't that be implemented on the Client side I wonder.

stephenbrightman
Community Guru
Stephen B Member Since: Dec 4, 2012
58 of 60

 

"Broom , meet rug"

 

Head, meet wall...

rkrzak
Active Member
Ryan K Member Since: Jul 17, 2017
59 of 60

The more I learn about how this site actually works, the more I am frusterated by its lack of transparency.

It would be one thing if Upwork simply showed certain applications above others, they have the right to run the site however they want. What makes this truly egregious is the fact that I had no way of knowing this was happening. People are using this site under false pretenses if they assume their applications are being treated the same as the others.

 

If my applications are being filtered to the bottom of the pile, how am I even supposed to know how to improve? I get no message on my end saying "your application may not be a good match because x." I want to be able to use this site effectively but it's hard to do when I don't even know what the rules are.

 

If this is happening to people with lots of jobs and feedback built up, how does someone new to the site like me stand a chance? Does anyone know if things have changed at all between from the time this thread was made until now?

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Valeria K Community Manager Member Since: Mar 6, 2014
60 of 60

Hi Ryan,

 

Currently, no proposals are automatically hidden. While by default proposals are sorted by best match, the client can easily sort them by other categories. 

 

When you apply, you will see a notification if you don't meet any of the preferences the client specified in their job posting.

~ Valeria
Upwork
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