Oct 9, 2019 11:01:43 AM by Eric B
Hi,
- I have a 250$ contract and I have to work on 10 websites.
- half of it have been funded (125$) so I think I should work on half of it (5 websites)
As far as I know, I should work on what's been funded. Is that correct?
If that's correct, what do I tell the client having read that message from that client and I quote:
"Hi I just hired you. Half at start and half at finish. Upwork does not allow me to put an earlier date than tomorrow"
what bugs me in that message is: "Half at start and half at finish"
to me, it means: do a 100% of the job while I just fund half of it and I'll pay you the rest when it's all done. I see a risk here, the risk not to be paid more than a half (first time I work with that client so my trust to that client is the same as my trust to every client I don't already know: none)
What should I do?
work a 50% of the jobs (5 sites), submit and wait to be paid for that part then wait for the client to fund the other one and finish the job?
I'm asking myself too about that "atomic job". By "atomic job", I mean "all or nothing". What if I succeed to do my job on 9 sites and I can't do the last one. Couldn't the client say: you haven't done the full job, I won't pay you (or I will pay you half which is what's funded)
Should I have asked for milestones?
that way, I'm being paid as I'm doing the job. In the hypothetical situation where I can succeed on 9 sites, I would be paid a 90%
Last question:
I talked with someone but I was hired by some other account like there can be some personal client upwork account and a professional one. Is that something that can be done? is that usual? is that weird?
Thank you!
Oct 9, 2019 11:23:30 AM by Louisa J
Hi Eric,
I gather you want to work with this client and have accepted the contract without discussing the payment with them in more detail.
Obviously, you are not happy with the set up, otherwise you would not have asked for some advice. The fact the client says half at start isn't actually true as to have half at start, as in now, they would have released the money to you now. As it stands, the money is not yours yet as it's in escrow. The client can still refuse to release this.
I think, considering there are so many red flags here, you need to have a chat with your client now, before you start. Tell them half means half, so you will do half the work, submit the milestone request and await the next milestone funding for the last half. That is how Upwork works.
Overall, it depends on how much you want this job and if you are willing to do the work and risk not being paid for part, or even all of it.
Best wishes,
Louisa
Oct 9, 2019 11:54:57 AM by Eric B
Louisa J wrote:Hi Eric,
I gather you want to work with this client and have accepted the contract without discussing the payment with them in more detail.
Obviously, you are not happy with the set up, otherwise you would not have asked for some advice. The fact the client says half at start isn't actually true as to have half at start, as in now, they would have released the money to you now. As it stands, the money is not yours yet as it's in escrow. The client can still refuse to release this.
I think, considering there are so many red flags here, you need to have a chat with your client now, before you start. Tell them half means half, so you will do half the work, submit the milestone request and await the next milestone funding for the last half. That is how Upwork works.
Overall, it depends on how much you want this job and if you are willing to do the work and risk not being paid for part, or even all of it.
Best wishes,
Louisa
Hi, Louisa
Thank you for your answer!
You're absolutely right: I never discuss the payment with them. I think they'll do what's correct which is not a correct thinking. I've even accepted in the past mysterious milestones thinking it would be correct when it was clearly not.
even if I do half of the job, will I be paid for it? well, I don't know. I see great ways to get work for free on upwork (not even speaking about 0 earnings freelancers eager to work at any price to get a first project)
Oct 9, 2019 11:23:36 AM Edited Oct 9, 2019 11:26:22 AM by Jonathan H
Eric,
This is really a conversation you should have with clients prior to agreeing a contract.
To answer your question....
As far as I know, I should work on what's been funded. Is that correct?
YES - However it sounds like in this case you do not have clear requirements for your milestones?
Hopefully your client will be on the same page as you with this, but do try to get milestones that reflect a specific deliverable (rather than "payment 1, payment 2, etc, etc, ) This way in future it will be clear for you and your client what is expected of you both.
ETA - sorry i missed a big part of your post.....
It sounds like you have not started yet, so simply tell the client you are happy to work on a milestone system they can fund 50% for the first 5 sites and once happy they can fund the second milestone for the remaining 5 sites.
Oct 9, 2019 12:02:55 PM by Eric B
Jonathan H wrote:Eric,
This is really a conversation you should have with clients prior to agreeing a contract.
To answer your question....
As far as I know, I should work on what's been funded. Is that correct?
YES - However it sounds like in this case you do not have clear requirements for your milestones?
Hopefully your client will be on the same page as you with this, but do try to get milestones that reflect a specific deliverable (rather than "payment 1, payment 2, etc, etc, ) This way in future it will be clear for you and your client what is expected of you both.
ETA - sorry i missed a big part of your post.....
It sounds like you have not started yet, so simply tell the client you are happy to work on a milestone system they can fund 50% for the first 5 sites and once happy they can fund the second milestone for the remaining 5 sites.
125$ has been funded but they could perfectly say I won't pay you and ask for refund for no reason. why not, right? what would happen to them if they do? doing so, they need another guy like me to get the job done for free (+ if there is a refund, can you let a feedback to that client? I don't think so)
I have always that unpleasant sensation that clients can do whatever they please whether they're right or wrong.
I'm not even talking about clear specifications: very few clients are ok to waste time to define correctly what they want.
Oct 9, 2019 12:13:35 PM Edited Oct 9, 2019 12:17:02 PM by Jonathan H
Eric B wrote:
125$ has been funded but they could perfectly say I won't pay you and ask for refund for no reason. why not, right? what would happen to them if they do? doing so, they need another guy like me to get the job done for free (+ if there is a refund, can you let a feedback to that client? I don't think so)
I have always that unpleasant sensation that clients can do whatever they please whether they're right or wrong.
I'm not even talking about clear specifications: very few clients are ok to waste time to define correctly what they want.
Yes, they 'could' ask for a refund, but if you have completed the milestone to the agreed level of work then why would they? It is no different than doing a private job for a client and the client refusing to pay - in fact, it is different because the client has already paid the money. So, you at least have some level of protection.
Work to the requirements of the first milestone, then submit work for payment, wait for the client to fund and activate the second milestone and then complete the rest of the work.
If the client was to request a refund then you could take it to dispute where if you have completed the reqirements i see no reason why you wouldnt win! However, im not sure why you are so worried about refunds when you have not even started the job yet!
The only issue i can see here that is perhaps being missed is if you dont have clear deliverables in the milestones - in which case you need to make sure you agree the deliverables with the clients before starting work and then only complete parts of the job that have been funded.
Oct 9, 2019 12:20:47 PM by Antun M
Jonathan H wrote:
Eric B wrote:
125$ has been funded but they could perfectly say I won't pay you and ask for refund for no reason. why not, right? what would happen to them if they do? doing so, they need another guy like me to get the job done for free (+ if there is a refund, can you let a feedback to that client? I don't think so)
I have always that unpleasant sensation that clients can do whatever they please whether they're right or wrong.
I'm not even talking about clear specifications: very few clients are ok to waste time to define correctly what they want.
Yes, they 'could' ask for a refund, but if you have completed the milestone to the agreed level of work then why would they? It is no different than doing a private job for a client and the client refusing to pay - in fact, it is different because the client has already paid the money. So, you at least have some level of protection.
Work to the requirements of the first milestone, then submit work for payment, wait for the client to fund and activate the second milestone and then complete the rest of the work.
If the client was to request a refund then you could take it to dispute where if you have completed the reqirements i see no reason why you wouldnt win! However, im not sure why you are so worried about refunds when you have not even started the job yet!
The only issue i can see here that is perhaps being missed is if you dont have clear deliverables in the milestones - in which case you need to make sure you agree the deliverables with the clients before starting work and then only complete parts of the job that have been funded.
Is that a type of 'mysterious milestone' mentioned in your previous post? Your worry that a client can cancel a contract and get their payment without any trouble?
I never felt that insecurity on UpWork.
Always under impression that IF I do my job correctly, I will be respected.
Always thought it's all up to me (after a valid contract was engaged).
Oct 9, 2019 12:43:57 PM by Eric B
Antun M wrote:
Jonathan H wrote:
Eric B wrote:
125$ has been funded but they could perfectly say I won't pay you and ask for refund for no reason. why not, right? what would happen to them if they do? doing so, they need another guy like me to get the job done for free (+ if there is a refund, can you let a feedback to that client? I don't think so)
I have always that unpleasant sensation that clients can do whatever they please whether they're right or wrong.
I'm not even talking about clear specifications: very few clients are ok to waste time to define correctly what they want.
Yes, they 'could' ask for a refund, but if you have completed the milestone to the agreed level of work then why would they? It is no different than doing a private job for a client and the client refusing to pay - in fact, it is different because the client has already paid the money. So, you at least have some level of protection.
Work to the requirements of the first milestone, then submit work for payment, wait for the client to fund and activate the second milestone and then complete the rest of the work.
If the client was to request a refund then you could take it to dispute where if you have completed the reqirements i see no reason why you wouldnt win! However, im not sure why you are so worried about refunds when you have not even started the job yet!
The only issue i can see here that is perhaps being missed is if you dont have clear deliverables in the milestones - in which case you need to make sure you agree the deliverables with the clients before starting work and then only complete parts of the job that have been funded.
Is that a type of 'mysterious milestone' mentioned in your previous post? Your worry that a client can cancel a contract and get their payment without any trouble?
I never felt that insecurity on UpWork.
Always under impression that IF I do my job correctly, I will be respected.
Always thought it's all up to me (after a valid contract was engaged).
I want to be like you but let's be clear: I only trust the client when my money is in my account. Everything can happen here: I've seen "individuals" you wouldn't believe.
Oct 9, 2019 12:28:15 PM by Eric B
Jonathan H wrote:The only issue i can see here that is perhaps being missed is if you dont have clear deliverables in the milestones - in which case you need to make sure you agree the deliverables with the clients before starting work and then only complete parts of the job that have been funded.
and you're right, it's not clear, it's generic. Let's say we talk about it, they agree about something that's not on the original proposal and after that: they create the contract exactly the same way as the original proposal (in the best case scenario, I've seen mysterious changes in a recent past) and don't make the change we agreed on.
when the offer is in front of us, I think a lot of us freelancers tend to click trusting the good faith of the client reading a bit but really not with a magnifying glass and I think that is an error. I think the best is to read closely that contract and ask for changes on that contract until it is what it needs to be.
Oct 9, 2019 12:39:26 PM by Jonathan H
Eric B wrote:
Jonathan H wrote:The only issue i can see here that is perhaps being missed is if you dont have clear deliverables in the milestones - in which case you need to make sure you agree the deliverables with the clients before starting work and then only complete parts of the job that have been funded.
and you're right, it's not clear, it's generic. Let's say we talk about it, they agree about something that's not on the original proposal and after that: they create the contract exactly the same way as the original proposal (in the best case scenario, I've seen mysterious changes in a recent past) and don't make the change we agreed on.
when the offer is in front of us, I think a lot of us freelancers tend to click trusting the good faith of the client reading a bit but really not with a magnifying glass and I think that is an error. I think the best is to read closely that contract and ask for changes on that contract until it is what it needs to be.
Well, a part of your job as freelancer is to agree terms that are suitable for both you and the client - If the terms dont meet your agreement ask the client to change them or dont agree to them, its quite simple but something you have to do if you dont want to get caught in sticky situations.
Another aspect of this (as you say) is trust....
Have you worked with a client before? If so, and things went well i may be less concerned about the exact spec of the milestones, but certainly for a new client i would expect milestones to be set out clearly. In either case i recognise that it is my own responsibility and if i fail to agree to clear terms and subsequently the client decides to 'do the dirty' well, thats on my head. (I had this situation recently, i took on a second job for a client and ended up a little trapped - i ended up doing far more than I should have done for the contract, but it was a decision i took and realise it was my own fault.)
Does the client have history? If a client has no history whatsoever then it seems obvious that clear requrements need to be set out in the milestones - In fact i will often propose the milestones myself to ensure i am happy with them and get paid for the bulk of my work sooner in the contract rather than later.
Does the client have bad history? Personally i would be wary of any contract if they do (depending on why) but I would certainly not agree to any terms that were not clear and concise for both me and the client.
Oct 9, 2019 12:15:00 PM by Petra R
Eric B wrote:I'm not even talking about clear specifications: very few clients are ok to waste time to define correctly what they want.
That is your job, and considering how many times you have fallen flat on your face one would think you'd have learned that by now.
Eric B wrote:I have always that unpleasant sensation that clients can do whatever they please whether they're right or wrong.
Only if you let them. You need to grow a backbone and start managing your clients and your contracts
You need to not accept a contract until it is correctly set up and funded.
Oct 9, 2019 12:38:04 PM by Eric B
Petra R wrote:
That is your job, and considering how many times you have fallen flat on your face one would think you'd have learned that by now.=> Yes, you're absolutely right but most of clients won't agree to "waste" one hour to check 10 sites. There are clients and clients and I have always that sensation that they don't want to waste a minute.
"Only if you let them. You need to grow a backbone and start managing your clients and your contracts"
=> right, again: I behave like a 0$ earning guy, not normal, at all !
You need to not accept a contract until it is correctly set up and funded."
Oct 9, 2019 11:53:26 AM Edited Oct 9, 2019 11:54:40 AM by Martina P
Eric B wrote:Hi,
- I have a 250$ contract and I have to work on 10 websites.
- half of it have been funded (125$) so I think I should work on half of it (5 websites)
As far as I know, I should work on what's been funded. Is that correct?
If that's correct, what do I tell the client having read that message from that client and I quote:
"Hi I just hired you. Half at start and half at finish. Upwork does not allow me to put an earlier date than tomorrow"
what bugs me in that message is: "Half at start and half at finish"to me, it means: do a 100% of the job while I just fund half of it and I'll pay you the rest when it's all done. I see a risk here, the risk not to be paid more than a half (first time I work with that client so my trust to that client is the same as my trust to every client I don't already know: none)
What should I do?
work a 50% of the jobs (5 sites), submit and wait to be paid for that part then wait for the client to fund the other one and finish the job?
I'm asking myself too about that "atomic job". By "atomic job", I mean "all or nothing". What if I succeed to do my job on 9 sites and I can't do the last one. Couldn't the client say: you haven't done the full job, I won't pay you (or I will pay you half which is what's funded)
Should I have asked for milestones?
that way, I'm being paid as I'm doing the job. In the hypothetical situation where I can succeed on 9 sites, I would be paid a 90%
Last question:
I talked with someone but I was hired by some other account like there can be some personal client upwork account and a professional one. Is that something that can be done? is that usual? is that weird?
Thank you!
I don't see anything unusual here. When you click the submit for payment button, it is assumed that you have delivered the work, meaning you do half the work, send it, click the button for half the total amount, wait for the client to fund the second milestone, finish that, again click submit for payment when you have delivered the second half.
Oct 9, 2019 12:24:12 PM by Christine A
Martina P wrote:I don't see anything unusual here. When you click the submit for payment button, it is assumed that you have delivered the work, meaning you do half the work, send it, click the button for half the total amount, wait for the client to fund the second milestone, finish that, again click submit for payment when you have delivered the second half.
I don't really see any red flags either, but why not simply ask your client if he can set up milestones to fund one website at a time? Ideally you should negotiate payment terms before you accept a project, but there's no harm in discussing it now. You can explain to the client that he would benefit from this arrangement as well, because then he'll be able to approve the first website before committing to the rest.
Oct 9, 2019 12:48:02 PM by Eric B
Christine A wrote:
Martina P wrote:I don't see anything unusual here. When you click the submit for payment button, it is assumed that you have delivered the work, meaning you do half the work, send it, click the button for half the total amount, wait for the client to fund the second milestone, finish that, again click submit for payment when you have delivered the second half.
I don't really see any red flags either, but why not simply ask your client if he can set up milestones to fund one website at a time? Ideally you should negotiate payment terms before you accept a project, but there's no harm in discussing it now. You can explain to the client that he would benefit from this arrangement as well, because then he'll be able to approve the first website before committing to the rest.
You're right. I can try that. What if they don't accept that change for any reason?
Oct 9, 2019 01:04:03 PM Edited Oct 9, 2019 01:04:38 PM by Christine A
Eric B wrote:
Christine A wrote:I don't really see any red flags either, but why not simply ask your client if he can set up milestones to fund one website at a time? Ideally you should negotiate payment terms before you accept a project, but there's no harm in discussing it now. You can explain to the client that he would benefit from this arrangement as well, because then he'll be able to approve the first website before committing to the rest.
You're right. I can try that. What if they don't accept that change for any reason?
It's not an unreasonable request, so why would they say no? There's less risk for them as well.
You can continue discussing this with us in the forum, but really the only way to solve your problem (assuming that it IS a problem - I'm not convinced) is to talk to your client. Part of being a successful freelancer is learning how to communicate.
Oct 9, 2019 12:44:00 PM by Jennifer M
Personally, I would have kicked it back and said to fund the whole thing. It's $250 not $2500. No reason not to fund the whole thing. But I guess you can work on 5 sites, but I'm gonna take a wild guess that's not what the client is thinking will happen, and you're about to be fighting over $125.
Oct 9, 2019 12:58:59 PM by Christine A
Jennifer M wrote:Personally, I would have kicked it back and said to fund the whole thing. It's $250 not $2500. No reason not to fund the whole thing. But I guess you can work on 5 sites, but I'm gonna take a wild guess that's not what the client is thinking will happen, and you're about to be fighting over $125.
If the client said "half now, half when you're finished" I interpret that to mean that if the OP does five websites and submits them for payment, then he will have done half the project and will get paid. Then get escrow funded for the next five sites, do them, submit for payment. I don't understand the need for all of this worrying.
Oct 9, 2019 01:02:44 PM by Antun M
Christine A wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:Personally, I would have kicked it back and said to fund the whole thing. It's $250 not $2500. No reason not to fund the whole thing. But I guess you can work on 5 sites, but I'm gonna take a wild guess that's not what the client is thinking will happen, and you're about to be fighting over $125.
If the client said "half now, half when you're finished" I interpret that to mean that if the OP does five websites and submits them for payment, then he will have done half the project and will get paid. Then get escrow funded for the next five sites, do them, submit for payment. I don't understand the need for all of this worrying.
Especially from a freelancer who, sounds like, is aware of ALL of which is written.
Oct 9, 2019 05:59:06 PM by Jennifer M
If the client said "half now, half when you're finished" I interpret that to mean that if the OP does five websites and submits them for payment, then he will have done half the project and will get paid. Then get escrow funded for the next five sites, do them, submit for payment. I don't understand the need for all of this worrying.
I don't think that's the client's expectations. This is 10 websites for $250, so it's a very cheap sale. I would hazard a guess the client is thinking $125 for all 10 and then he gets the rest after the client asks for changes. That's usually how these people work. It happens in the writing field too, which is why I kick it back and tell them to fund the whole thing. I don't care about the client's risk. I care about mine, and I don't want to get into an argument over unfunded money.
Oct 9, 2019 11:02:59 PM by Eric B
Jennifer M wrote:If the client said "half now, half when you're finished" I interpret that to mean that if the OP does five websites and submits them for payment, then he will have done half the project and will get paid. Then get escrow funded for the next five sites, do them, submit for payment. I don't understand the need for all of this worrying.
I don't think that's the client's expectations. This is 10 websites for $250, so it's a very cheap sale. I would hazard a guess the client is thinking $125 for all 10 and then he gets the rest after the client asks for changes. That's usually how these people work. It happens in the writing field too, which is why I kick it back and tell them to fund the whole thing. I don't care about the client's risk. I care about mine, and I don't want to get into an argument over unfunded money.
I sadly think you're right: no clear requirements and then all changes: a piece of art!
Oct 10, 2019 12:50:38 PM by Eric B
Eric B wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:If the client said "half now, half when you're finished" I interpret that to mean that if the OP does five websites and submits them for payment, then he will have done half the project and will get paid. Then get escrow funded for the next five sites, do them, submit for payment. I don't understand the need for all of this worrying.
I don't think that's the client's expectations. This is 10 websites for $250, so it's a very cheap sale. I would hazard a guess the client is thinking $125 for all 10 and then he gets the rest after the client asks for changes. That's usually how these people work. It happens in the writing field too, which is why I kick it back and tell them to fund the whole thing. I don't care about the client's risk. I care about mine, and I don't want to get into an argument over unfunded money.
I sadly think you're right: no clear requirements and then all changes: a piece of art!
Some clients are masters in the art of ambiguity.
"half now and half when you're finished" can be interpreted 2 ways:
1- you do half, I pay you half, you do the other half, I pay you the other half
2- you do all of it, I pay you half, If it's correct I pay you the other half.
in option 1: half = half (tautology = always true)
in option 2: half = all of it = double
what I understand is that it's hard not to say impossible to be, say 1 hour with the client to get clear requirements. I'm not sure they're able to do that, too occupied, not enough mentally structured (at leat for that kind of task), lazy....
final thought: clear requirements are mandatory. if the client doesn't do his part then no deal, it's a bad client and I'm pretty sure some freelancer will be very happy to deal with him and I will be very happy to NOT deal with THAT (kind of client?).
Oct 10, 2019 03:18:12 PM by Richard W
Hi Eric. You seem to be assuming the worst, when there may be no problem.
One of my first clients said the same thing ("Half up front, half on completion.") I politely explained that that's not how Upwork works, and said that I would treat the two milestones as being for the first and second half the work. He didn't object, everything went well, and he (or rather his company) is now my best client.
Oct 10, 2019 04:54:15 PM by Eric B
Richard W wrote:Hi Eric. You seem to be assuming the worst, when there may be no problem.
One of my first clients said the same thing ("Half up front, half on completion.") I politely explained that that's not how Upwork works, and said that I would treat the two milestones as being for the first and second half the work. He didn't object, everything went well, and he (or rather his company) is now my best client.
You're right but is not assuming the worst being realistic?
I think I should have led the client to have clearer requirements but to go from something generic to something really wel analyzed, it can take time and not all clients are ok to do it.
Oct 10, 2019 03:44:46 PM by Richard W
Jennifer M wrote:I don't think that's the client's expectations. This is 10 websites for $250, so it's a very cheap sale.
Eric does web scraping. So I assume he's talking about scraping 10 sites, not building them! It still seems cheap though.
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