Dec 24, 2019 01:24:19 AM by Gergana K
I am a new freelancer with excellent feedback from clients and I recently earned the "Rising Talent" badge. Yesterday I unwisely accepted a contract from a 3-star rated client who changed the scope of the work we had agreed upon immediately in subsequent communications. I told him that what he is asking of me now is a different category of work and I would have to charge a bit more. He disagreed and wants to cancel the contract, and I´m fine with that since I don´t think even my new proposed rate would be adequate pay for the expanded scope of the work he was asking of me.
My question is, how can the contract be cancelled without it affecting my JSS score or the client leaving negative feedback? No money has changed hands and no work done, the contract is being cancelled due to "scope creep" - client asking me to do something which was not mentioned either in his job offer or in subsequent communications (before I accepted the job).
Would it impact my JSS differently if he cancels or if I cancel it? Or is it equally bad in either case?
Solved! Go to Solution.
Dec 24, 2019 05:13:36 AM Edited Dec 24, 2019 05:18:31 AM by Will L
So please leave accurate feedback for this client, to warn off freelancers who might be tempted to try to work with them in the future.
It's unfortunate you were tempted to work with such a low-rated client, but Upwork should provide more information about the past behavior of all clients, including:
1) What percentage of their past projects have been cancelled by the client?
2) What percentage of their past projects have been cancelled by the client's previous freelancers?
Similar information about projects involving a client’s mediation and arbitration history would be useful, too.
Having to select clients with so little information about their history on Upwork creates unnecessary and avoidable problems for freelancers.
By the way, if a client's feedback has been consistently negative on their prior projects, Upwork has said that client's feedback on new projects may not be included in the JSS calculations of the freelancers they hire. You may get lucky in this respect.
Dec 24, 2019 01:36:17 AM by Steve J
Dec 24, 2019 02:24:50 AM by Patrick M
I believe that if you end the contract before any work is done or money changes hands, you'll not be prompted for feedback nor will the client. Someone from Upwork may wish to verify this but It seems to me from my recollection that if has no impact on your score.
Scope creep can be a frustrating and ubiquitous part of a freelancers life. It's one of the reasons I only do hourly work. If the client keeps asking for more, then they're charged the normal hourly rate.
Best of luck!
Dec 24, 2019 03:34:45 AM by Petra R
Patrick M wrote:I believe that if you end the contract before any work is done or money changes hands, you'll not be prompted for feedback nor will the client.
You believe wrong. Contracts that end with nothing paid usually do affect the JSS regatively, and clients DO get to leave (private) feedback which affects the JSS for better or for worse.
The trick (for future reference) is to not accept a contract until the scope is perfectly defined and nailed down and agreed to in writing.
I'd also be weary to accept any contract with a 3 star rating unless it is clear from the history that the feedback was undeserved.
Life's too short for bad clients.
Dec 24, 2019 05:13:36 AM Edited Dec 24, 2019 05:18:31 AM by Will L
So please leave accurate feedback for this client, to warn off freelancers who might be tempted to try to work with them in the future.
It's unfortunate you were tempted to work with such a low-rated client, but Upwork should provide more information about the past behavior of all clients, including:
1) What percentage of their past projects have been cancelled by the client?
2) What percentage of their past projects have been cancelled by the client's previous freelancers?
Similar information about projects involving a client’s mediation and arbitration history would be useful, too.
Having to select clients with so little information about their history on Upwork creates unnecessary and avoidable problems for freelancers.
By the way, if a client's feedback has been consistently negative on their prior projects, Upwork has said that client's feedback on new projects may not be included in the JSS calculations of the freelancers they hire. You may get lucky in this respect.
Dec 24, 2019 05:19:58 AM Edited Dec 24, 2019 05:21:43 AM by Weiling X
if you cancel the contract now,
client may leave bad private feedback which affects your JSS a bit but the project won't display on your profile at all.
If it was me I would very politely reject this client now and would not care lots about the feedback this client probably could leave, at this point it is their rights anyway. but I can avoid any bigger loss. compare to a bad public feedback, JSS can be built easily.
Dec 24, 2019 05:36:32 AM Edited Dec 24, 2019 05:38:56 AM by Preston H
re: "It's one of the reasons I only do hourly work. If the client keeps asking for more, then they're charged the normal hourly rate."
That can be a very smart and profitable policy. Hourly is a fair and equitable way to hire.
Fixed-price is the more complicated contract model. It requires that the freelancer exercise additional foresight and diligence, and it only work if the client acts professionally. There are certain clients who should never be trusted with fixed-price contracts because they abuse such.
Dec 25, 2019 07:43:02 PM by John B
Here's a tactic I use with prospective-then-actual clients who I think maybe creepy with my scope. Hence, scope creep. This also applies to work that is extensive enough where we cannot estimate total scope until some N period of hours is completed.
First, to note: until hours are entered, the project can be cancelled without reflection on ratings or impact on JSS. With that in mind.
If I am in a circumstance where it appears things might get a little 'jiggy' -- and I am not totally certain the client is going to be partnership-quality. I will physically work through the scoping work, just as if they are billable hours. And keep track of them, perhaps even send emails so there is no 'surprise'. But I wait until the end of the N-needed-hours period before I log them into Upwork. Characteristically, I simply say, "I will bulk load the hours in on Sunday, let's get through this week of work, make sure we totally agree on scope, and when we do, then, I can log the hours with good accord.
Now, this does imply that 'work might be done' that ultimately 'does not get paid for'. Yes, there is that risk. Impactful ratings on our JSS are the lifeblood of our business. I will -- and on a couple of occassions have -- happily sacrifice three or four, or five of whatever hours to get project work started, get through exact scoping -- then input hours.
Summary: just keep in mind. Until we log hours, we are still in control of our JSS and ratings destiny. We can use a technique to bundle first week hours to the Sunday listing period, bulk load them in, and -- win the project. But -- give one's self a week to make sure a potentially sketchy client is going to play ball fairly. The potential cost. A few hours of work, not billed. The gain. Sounder sleep.
Dec 26, 2019 12:40:53 AM Edited Dec 26, 2019 11:03:23 AM by Petra R
John B wrote:First, to note: until hours are entered, the project can be cancelled without reflection on ratings or impact on JSS.
Absolutely wrong. Contracts that close or stay open for 2+ months without any payment affect the JSS negatively in most cases. The exceptions are when the client is suspended, the client has been exclused from the JSS system for excessive poor outcomes, or the client leaves positive private feedback.
John B wrote:If I am in a circumstance where it appears things might get a little 'jiggy' -- and I am not totally certain the client is going to be partnership-quality. I will physically work through the scoping work, just as if they are billable hours. And keep track of them, perhaps even send emails so there is no 'surprise'. But I wait until the end of the N-needed-hours period before I log them into Upwork.
So you use manual hours, meaning "no protection" (if the client doesn't want to pay, you don't get paid) - potentially "free work" and "not getting paid" and STILL have the risk of a negative effect on your JSS.
How in the world does that sound smart to you?
John B wrote:Until we log hours, we are still in control of our JSS and ratings destiny.
Wrong.
Dec 26, 2019 09:50:20 AM by John B
It never occurred to me that anyone would leave a contract open for more than a week or two, with zero work. That has never occurred to me. Apologies. Have a great day!
Dec 26, 2019 10:17:45 AM by John B
I should cover this specifically since it actually does matter:
"So you use manual hours, meaning "no protection" (if the client doesn't want to pay, you don't get paid) - potentially "free work" and "not getting paid" and STILL have the risk of a negative effect on your JSS.
How in the world does that sound smart to you?"
- Yes, I use manual hours. Always. Meaning "no protection". My delivery is my protection. Never, in 7 years on this platform, across all of the profile hours you see, has a client refused to pay me. Has not getting paid been a problem for you?
- Yes, I would, if need be, cede potentially free work to protect my JSS. 'Have not had to, but if a first week's work, which I bundled to enter on Sunday, went south. I'd end the contract myself before I got the client into a position where they could affect my JSS. I protect that 100% JSS you see above all else. Perhaps this is a policy that would be helpful to your JSS.
- No, there would not be a risk to my JSS. I am speaking of a week of work, with hours bundled to Sunday, to make sure the scoping is correct and there are no jiggy circumstances. There is case to be made: this tactic does not work for projects that are.... a week long.
Dec 26, 2019 11:09:04 AM Edited Dec 26, 2019 12:59:48 PM by Petra R
John B wrote:Perhaps this is a policy that would be helpful to your JSS.
What makes you think my (honest; not created by ducking, diving, asking for good feedback and working for free in fear of honest client feedback) JSS needs any help at all?
And, again, any contract with nothing (ever) paid will hurt the JSS except in the circumstances previously outlined.
John wrote:- Leaving open jobs on the books is obvious a negative potential impactor.
Wrong again. Open contracts only affect the JSS if nothing was ever paid. It makes no difference if an open contract is paused or not. Open contracts with money paid are neutral and have no impact.
John B wrote:I'd end the contract myself before I got the client into a position where they could affect my JSS. I protect that 100% JSS you see above all else.
You would do no such thing. If you close a contract before anything has been paid, your JSS will take a hit (because Upwork has long wised up to sneaky stunts like that, done to artifically boost or protect the JSS) because it is a "nothing paid" contract.
Also, the client can still leave private feedback, and private feedback is what affects the JSS. You might want to take a look at your "private JSS" on your "My Stats" page...
John wrote:Has not getting paid been a problem for you?
No, it hasn't been (yet), but it *is* for a hell of a lot of people, many of whom can ill afford to take the hit, so throwing about advice like that without the proviso that manual time means you are only ever one failed credit card charge or a client getting run over by a bus or fired or disputing or going bankrupt away from not getting paid for 2 weeks worth of work.
It also means that in case of fraudulent use of a payment method you could lose much more than just a week's worth. Having seen someone battle over a $ 4k chargeback, for example, was not pretty.
I also use manual time, but to universally advise it is irresponsible.
Dec 26, 2019 09:55:36 AM by John B
Apologies on this one, too. In 2500 work hours, about 70 projects now, I have never had a client dispute hours. Not once. Here's the bottom line as I see it.
- Work with high quality clients. If they 'don't want to pay you', (a) the work was done poorly or (b) the client was chosen poorly -- and both of those are mistakes made the by the contractor.
- If scope is an issue, do some upfront work, keep it off the books for a couple days, to make sure the client will behave. Log them in on the weekend when it is clear the first week will go well.
- Leaving open jobs on the books is obvious a negative potential impactor. Don't start a contract until work is ready to start, and if a contract work set stops, have the client put it on pause. That is incredibly simple to do.
These are simple things to do.
Dec 26, 2019 10:15:28 AM by Christine A
John B wrote:
- If scope is an issue, do some upfront work, keep it off the books for a couple days, to make sure the client will behave. Log them in on the weekend when it is clear the first week will go well.
The rest of your advice is good, but why should anyone do upfront work and "keep it off the books"? If you're telling people that they should do several days worth of work before even accepting a contract or asking for payment, then this is very bad advice. Also, projects can go wrong even after working with a client for weeks or months, let alone a few days; some clients will "behave" right up until a freelancer sends them the finished work, and then the trouble begins.
Dec 27, 2019 06:41:17 AM by Jennifer M
John B wrote:Here's a tactic I use with prospective-then-actual clients who I think maybe creepy with my scope. Hence, scope creep. This also applies to work that is extensive enough where we cannot estimate total scope until some N period of hours is completed.
First, to note: until hours are entered, the project can be cancelled without reflection on ratings or impact on JSS. With that in mind.
If I am in a circumstance where it appears things might get a little 'jiggy' -- and I am not totally certain the client is going to be partnership-quality. I will physically work through the scoping work, just as if they are billable hours. And keep track of them, perhaps even send emails so there is no 'surprise'. But I wait until the end of the N-needed-hours period before I log them into Upwork. Characteristically, I simply say, "I will bulk load the hours in on Sunday, let's get through this week of work, make sure we totally agree on scope, and when we do, then, I can log the hours with good accord.
Now, this does imply that 'work might be done' that ultimately 'does not get paid for'. Yes, there is that risk. Impactful ratings on our JSS are the lifeblood of our business. I will -- and on a couple of occassions have -- happily sacrifice three or four, or five of whatever hours to get project work started, get through exact scoping -- then input hours.
Summary: just keep in mind. Until we log hours, we are still in control of our JSS and ratings destiny. We can use a technique to bundle first week hours to the Sunday listing period, bulk load them in, and -- win the project. But -- give one's self a week to make sure a potentially sketchy client is going to play ball fairly. The potential cost. A few hours of work, not billed. The gain. Sounder sleep.
heyyyy aren't you that boomer who did a boomer thing and posted his private pic on here and then ranted that you got hacked and had the mods clear your posting history? Are you the one who claims to have clients sit on the phone with him and you tell them what to type in feedback? Are you the same dude?
Dec 27, 2019 10:23:53 AM by John B
Dec 27, 2019 10:47:59 AM by Jennifer M
John B wrote:
Nope. I am the 57-year-old management consultant and writer. And the one
who spends, by practical nature. all my time working to deliver results for
my clients. This should be self-evident. Either that, or helping my two
specially chosen Upwork contractor young'ns to go five-for-five in project
delivery success and in so doing: increase their billing rate in 2019 by 4x
what it was when we started our work together, beginning of the year. That
went well. Have a nice day! I guess we all contribute in our ways. Let's
meet up again next year and compare notes on efforts such as this.
ok that's cool, I just went and looked you up and yeah, you're the boomer I'm thinking of. lol
Dec 27, 2019 11:00:21 AM by John B
Dec 27, 2019 11:08:00 AM by Jennifer M
John B wrote:
Well, as you wish. What people chose to believe is what they chose to
believe. Personally, I don't let Upwork social media/blogs rent space in
my head. If I want to go look something up, it would be a former client,
to call or email and say thank you again for the 5-0. Try it some time.
It is both positive, useful and can have wondrous effects. Does for me.
Ciao.
So many words here, but all I'm sayin is you said in previous posts that you sit on the phone with the client and tell them what to write in your feedback. idk why boomers have to tell us all about their Dr Evil levels of income, but I just asked if you were the one who posted their image here and then claimed to have been hacked. I can't help if your advice was unforgettable. I always remember lolcows because I love them very much.
Dec 27, 2019 11:16:21 AM Edited Dec 27, 2019 11:17:03 AM by Petra R
Jennifer M wrote:
idk why boomers have to tell us all about their Dr Evil levels of income
Especially when they claim $ 275k when it's less than half that
Dec 27, 2019 11:32:40 AM by Jennifer M
Petra R wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
idk why boomers have to tell us all about their Dr Evil levels of incomeEspecially when they claim $ 275k when it's less than half that
It was very cute and precious when he offered to "help me out" by hiring me and giving me jobs. Special levels of precious.
Dec 27, 2019 12:03:03 PM by John B
My "cute experience" has been, in fact, brilliant business experience for others and myself. This is a screenshot of my hiring account. Currently, I am employing two Upworkers. I have hired more than this list indicates (it is all I could fit on a screen). Many of these young people I diligently sought out as they work offshore and we all understand the terrible odds they face at times.
Along with my 100% JSS: as you see, 5-0s from each Upworker were granted to me as the Upwork client. Since you have been unkind to me, and made fun of an act of kindness in offer to work with you as a colleague -- and to share project work I have won and can distribute. I can only relate this: Twelve other Upwork contractors made a different decision. Twelve other Upworkers gained work, got extraordinary ratings back from me, and enjoyed work they otherwise might not ever win. Now might be a good time to resheath your blog claws. They do not serve you well in public.
Dec 27, 2019 12:11:21 PM by Jennifer M
John B wrote:My "cute experience" has been, in fact, brilliant business experience for others and myself. This is a screenshot of my hiring account. Currently, I am employing two Upworkers. I have hired more than this list indicates (it is all I could fit on a screen). Many of these young people I diligently sought out as they work offshore and we all understand the terrible odds they face at times.
Along with my 100% JSS: as you see, 5-0s from each Upworker were granted to me as the Upwork client. Since you have been unkind to me, and made fun of an act of kindness in offer to work with you as a colleague -- and to share project work I have won and can distribute. I can only relate this: Twelve other Upwork contractors made a different decision. Twelve other Upworkers gained work, got extraordinary ratings back from me, and enjoyed work they otherwise might not ever win. Now might be a good time to resheath your blog claws. They do not serve you well in public.
Yes, we know dear. We saw your profile.
I'm not sure how I will cope with the loss of your precious offer. I will somehow persevere without the stars and feedback. It will be a long, tough road ahead but I will soldier on and look forward to hopefully finding work on this fine blog platform.
Dec 27, 2019 12:29:27 PM by John B
Your profile is extraordinary. Truly top on the platform. It is my sincere wish I get to compete with you, as often as possible. Have a nice day.
Dec 27, 2019 12:40:10 PM Edited Dec 27, 2019 12:41:35 PM by Petra R
John B wrote:Your profile is extraordinary. Truly top on the platform.
Indeed it is, And she doesn't have to falsely claim to have made $ 250k+ when it's less than half that, to the extent of even writing it into the feedback to her freelancers.
Who does something like that...
Dec 27, 2019 03:45:24 PM by John B
My belief is, it is hard to drown a guy with a 100% JSS, at a rate of $62 to $75, successful on the platform for 7 years now. And with a perfect 5-0 profile, having hired more than a dozen fellow Upworkers. That's exactly the profile Upwork values the most. Not bloggers. The business people at Upwork.
This feedback trend of yours. This is worrisome potentially. Tons of solid 5-0s in 2018. I see nine 'no feedback given' and one 'feedback removed'. Add in a 4.3, a 4.45 in 2019. It is exceptionally good news that Upwork takes the higher JSS over a multi-year average vs past 12 months to calc your score. I am happy this option was available for you. Buckle up young man. Your 2-year average score will run out in about 6 months and those no feedbacks and 4-somethings can really cause problems. Remember, always. How we close out our projects is a sign of strength and client relationship development. This is perhaps an opportunity for improvement in 2020. Let me know if you would like to share any of my techniques.
Dec 27, 2019 05:56:31 PM by Jennifer M
Dec 27, 2019 07:25:54 PM by Christine A
Jennifer M wrote:
Lmao so cute and precious lashing out when you are the poseur in this thread.
Jennifer, he's only trying to help. Maybe if you got onto the phone with your clients and dictated your desired feedback, then you wouldn't be having such a hard time getting work.
Dec 27, 2019 07:22:53 PM by Christine A
John B wrote:My belief is, it is hard to drown a guy with a 100% JSS, at a rate of $62 to $75, successful on the platform for 7 years now. And with a perfect 5-0 profile, having hired more than a dozen fellow Upworkers. That's exactly the profile Upwork values the most. Not bloggers. The business people at Upwork.
This feedback trend of yours. This is worrisome potentially. Tons of solid 5-0s in 2018. I see nine 'no feedback given' and one 'feedback removed'. Add in a 4.3, a 4.45 in 2019. It is exceptionally good news that Upwork takes the higher JSS over a multi-year average vs past 12 months to calc your score. I am happy this option was available for you. Buckle up young man. Your 2-year average score will run out in about 6 months and those no feedbacks and 4-somethings can really cause problems. Remember, always. How we close out our projects is a sign of strength and client relationship development. This is perhaps an opportunity for improvement in 2020. Let me know if you would like to share any of my techniques.
This is just the sort of thing that keeps me entertained through the long, cold winter nights. Kudos to you, sir.
Dec 28, 2019 02:42:43 AM by Petra R
John B wrote:
This feedback trend of yours. This is worrisome potentially.
Not as worrisome as an average private feedback percentage of just 82% and over 15% of contracts that never led to any earnings (cancelled or refunded) to hide visible bad feedback...
Dec 28, 2019 09:44:42 PM by Tiffany S
John B wrote:My belief is, it is hard to drown a guy with a 100% JSS, at a rate of $62 to $75, successful on the platform for 7 years now. And with a perfect 5-0 profile, having hired more than a dozen fellow Upworkers. That's exactly the profile Upwork values the most. Not bloggers. The business people at Upwork.
It's nothing short of astonishing that you have all that experience and presume to coach newcomers, and yet are so stunningly unaware (by your own declaration) of the consistent issues faced by newcomers here, such as clients not paying for manual time, clients tricking them into starting work without a contract and then not making payment, clients never closing contracts, the JSS hit associated with no-pay contracts..and so on, and so on, and so on.
Dec 28, 2019 10:47:21 PM by John B
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