I'm disappointed by the mediation of Upwork

[mammapata]

Dear colleagues,

I opened my first dispute here on Upwork because I have an open contract with a difficult customer. I've been asked for changes for months and I've done them, but the customer is never satisfied, the release of funds has already been denied to me twice and it has been three months since the start of the contract.

After opening the dispute with my client I was advised by the mediation specialist to continue making the changes that are required of me.
Honestly, I've been making changes for months for this client, who behaved unprofessionally throughout the process and finally denied the funds.

I find it shameful that my dispute ends with "do what the customer wants", so I understand that the worker here on Upwork is not protected, every customer can take the freedom to "play" with people, lose time and following his whims can take back the money getting free work.

What do you think? Do you have similar experiences to share? Maybe some suggestions?

Thank you!

[prestonhunter]

Avoid opening disputes or using mediation.

I prefer to start with small contracts with any client who wants to use fixed-price contracts. This way I can test the client.

Start with a contract that is for no more than an hour or two hours worth of work.

Then if the client demonstrates that she can not be trusted to deal fairly with a fixed-price contract, I can walk away if necessary. Rather than dealing with the inappropriate client behavior you describe in your post.

If a client demonstrates that she uses fixed-price contracts fairly and honestly, then I will agree to increasingly larger fixed-price contracts.

[mammapata]

Thank you!

[mammapata]

Of course, that's what I think. But we're talking about a 150$ milestone.
What do I do? I recover my 150$ and then I spend 291$? 

In every real judgment, at least where I live (I don't know how it works in other parts of the world) the loser pays for everything.

In this way, however, I lose anyway, even if I win. I lose money, time and above all my peace of mind.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Of course, that's what I think. But we're talking about a 150$ milestone."

One option you have is to close the contract yourself rather than dealing with this client's shenanigans.

That is what I did a few weeks ago with a client who was asking for more work rather than releasing payment for a $150 fixed-price contract.

Rather than doing new work outside the scope of the contract, I offered to let her pay any amount she felt was appropriate for the work that had been completed. She kept asking for new work rather than releasing payment. I closed the contract.

The work I did belongs to me. I can post it in my profile if I want to, or do anything I want with it. Because the client acted inappropriately, she lost my good favor and can no longer ask for me to work on her project. What she lost was worth far more than the $150 that I did not receive.

[mammapata]

A similar thing happened to me last year, and I also closed the contract because I didn't have any problems.

But that doesn't seem correct, apart from the months of work that is lost, I have presented some graphic ideas and the client has received them. Maybe she won't have the job finished but in the meantime, she takes home some ideas that she can have rebuilt in a short time by someone else.

It's not right to make these people believe that they have the freedom to do what they want, because then they will come back to do it.

I don't want to change the world, but I hate injustices and I think each of us should make our voices heard when this happens!

[prestonhunter]

You're right.

I don't think the system is fair at all. I think the way clients can simply click a button to avoid paying for fixed-price work is one of the most glaring problems within the entire Upwork system.

Until that changes, I try to use proactive ways to avoid getting into situations like this.

I don't think there is any perfect solution to your current predicament.

Keep in mind that you CAN file a dispute. And moving this to a dispute costs nothing.

It is only when one goes to arbitration that one has to pay $291. But, yes: The prospect of paying $291 in order to receive $150 is mathematically problematic.

[petra_r]

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Preston H wrote:

. But, yes: The prospect of paying $291 in order to receive $150 is mathematically problematic.

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The prospect of paying $ 291 and getting it back, plus the $ 150 in Escrow makes more sense though 🙂

That said, I agree that disputes are best avoided, and that happens mostly before even accepting a contract.

I am pretty sure that the reason I only ever had one dispute and ghave always been paid for everything out of over 250 contracts is because I am super careful who I work with. And the one dispute I had I "won" (in the sense that the client folded right away.)

[mammapata]

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Petra R wrote:

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That said, I agree that disputes are best avoided, and that happens mostly before even accepting a contract.

Yes, I agree with you.

Despite this, I think that the ability to recognize customers before the contract starts comes with experience, and I was wrong in this because at first, I had feelings, an internal voice told me not to accept the contract but I did not listen to it.

[petra_r]

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Emy F wrote:

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Petra R wrote:

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That said, I agree that disputes are best avoided, and that happens mostly before even accepting a contract.

Yes, I agree with you.

Despite this, I think that the ability to recognize customers before the contract starts comes with experience, and I was wrong in this because at first, I had feelings, an internal voice told me not to accept the contract but I did not listen to it.

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TOTALLY. And you know what? Mine which ended in the dispute was exactly the same. Little voice said "Don't do it, it'll end in tears" but I ignored it.

And that was this year, so I can't blame lack of experience.
When things go swimmingly for a looong time and nothing goes wrong you (well, I) get cocky and think you can handle anything.

Until you find that you can't.

[richard_wein]

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Emy F wrote:

It's not right to make these people believe that they have the freedom to do what they want, because then they will come back to do it.

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Well, that's effectively what you would be doing if you give them a refund. I say: don't let them get away with it. Arbitrate their ass!

It may not sound like a good bet to risk $291 for the sake of getting $150. But your client is then faced with a worse option: they will be worse off if they go to arbitration, whatever the result. That means they are very unlikely to pay for arbitration, in which case so you are very likely to get your $291 back and the full $150 in escrow.

[alexdente]

Break down the work down into steps and make step1 as small as you can. Do step1 and request the client to revise, approve and pay for step1. Do not proceed to step2 if the work for step1 is not approved. If after a couple of revisions the client is not satisfied with step1, then you are not a good match and you can drop that client politely without charging them (so they can't rate you either).

But if the client revises, approves and pays for step1, then you have just trained them to expect this for all steps and it dawns on them that they will have to repay to revisit a step that they have already approved.

You want to make it all so that you'll never have to rely on disputes and mediations.

[mammapata]

Perfectly agree.
Thank you.

[petra_r]

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Alexandros K wrote:

 then you are not a good match and you can drop that client politely without charging them

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BAD idea. "Nothing paid" contracts hit your JSS as hard as those with poor feedback.

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Alexandros K wrote:

 (so they can't rate you either).

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The client can still leave private feedback, which is what hits the JSS.

[mammapata]

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Petra R wrote:

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Alexandros K wrote:

 then you are not a good match and you can drop that client politely without charging them

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BAD idea. "Nothing paid" contracts hit your JSS as hard as those with poor feedback.

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Alexandros K wrote:

 (so they can't rate you either).

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The client can still leave private feedback, which is what hits the JSS.

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I didn't know that, but I suspected it. When I closed the contract last year by agreeing not to be paid rather than going on with headaches, my JSS dropped significantly. 

[lysis10]

Don't listen to that guy. It shouldn't be marked as best answer. There are countless threads here where two sweaties argue over friggin $20 in escrow.

[florydev]

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Petra R wrote:

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Alexandros K wrote:

 then you are not a good match and you can drop that client politely without charging them

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BAD idea. "Nothing paid" contracts hit your JSS as hard as those with poor feedback.

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Alexandros K wrote:

 (so they can't rate you either).

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The client can still leave private feedback, which is what hits the JSS.

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I want to make sure I understand that correctly, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay contract?

[hoyle_editing]

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Mark F wrote:

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I want to make sure I understand that correctly, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay contract?

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I have just experianced a client closing a contract - to which i have entered dispute.

But what i can say is that i had to leave private feedback for the client first, i can only assume that he also left me private feedback.

[lysis10]

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Mark F wrote:

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I want to make sure I understand that correctly, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay contract?

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I'm not Petra, but I can answer this. She might be sleeeeping 🙂  But the answer is yes, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay or refunded contract. The public feedback doesn't display. This is because the sweaties were refunding to hide their suckage back in the day, so now we all suffer. -_-

[florydev]

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Jennifer M wrote:

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Mark F wrote:

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I want to make sure I understand that correctly, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay contract?

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I'm not Petra, but I can answer this. She might be sleeeeping 🙂  But the answer is yes, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay or refunded contract. The public feedback doesn't display. This is because the sweaties were refunding to hide their suckage back in the day, so now we all suffer. -_-

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Your input and information is always appreciated.  I believe you are the queen of disputes.

So I just asked Petra but I am not afraid to repeat myself there is basically no reason ever to give a refund.  This is straight up assuming that a client would give me the business regardless of if I give them their money back.

[lysis10]

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Mark F wrote:

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Jennifer M wrote:

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Mark F wrote:

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I want to make sure I understand that correctly, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay contract?

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I'm not Petra, but I can answer this. She might be sleeeeping 🙂  But the answer is yes, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay or refunded contract. The public feedback doesn't display. This is because the sweaties were refunding to hide their suckage back in the day, so now we all suffer. -_-

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Your input and information is always appreciated.  I believe you are the queen of disputes.

So I just asked Petra but I am not afraid to repeat myself there is basically no reason ever to give a refund.  This is straight up assuming that a client would give me the business regardless of if I give them their money back.

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Yeah, there really is no incentive to give the money back. Only reason that it might be worth it is if you're new and don't have a lot of jobs and you have a bad one where the client ranted in comments. That might make things harder in the future.

Also, a trick I use if I know I'm getting a so so rating is to let the job sit as "no feedback given" for the 2 weeks so hopefully I get some other jobs before the bad rating shows. Once you can push that down the page (I think clients only look at the first few anyway), it's not a big deal. You can also close some dead contracts to push the bad one down and POOF it's several scrolls before a client sees it. I actually save dead contracts for this purpose. teeeheeee

[petra_r]

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Mark F wrote:

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Petra R wrote:

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Alexandros K wrote:

 then you are not a good match and you can drop that client politely without charging them

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BAD idea. "Nothing paid" contracts hit your JSS as hard as those with poor feedback.

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Alexandros K wrote:

 (so they can't rate you either).

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The client can still leave private feedback, which is what hits the JSS.

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I want to make sure I understand that correctly, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay contract?

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Of course. Is there any other way to interpret "The client can still leave private feedback, which is what hits the JSS."

😉 😉 😉 😉

[florydev]

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Petra R wrote:

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Mark F wrote:

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Petra R wrote:

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Alexandros K wrote:

 then you are not a good match and you can drop that client politely without charging them

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BAD idea. "Nothing paid" contracts hit your JSS as hard as those with poor feedback.

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Alexandros K wrote:

 (so they can't rate you either).

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The client can still leave private feedback, which is what hits the JSS.

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I want to make sure I understand that correctly, they can leave private feedback on a no-pay contract?

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Of course. Is there any other way to interpret "The client can still leave private feedback, which is what hits the JSS."

😉 😉 😉 😉

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I guess NO... but what then I don't understand is why would anyone every do this.  It seems like people forfit the money a lot and if the client can still bang them up anyway..

I like to know the information but when I eventually end up with one of these problems I will be re-asking again 

[lysis10]

Just because the mediator suggests more revisions doesn't mean you have to do them. I refuse more revisions because I think it opens me up to more headaches. So, for me, it's a big neeeewp and it's just money or arbitration, pal.

[yitwail]

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Jennifer M wrote:

Just because the mediator suggests more revisions doesn't mean you have to do them. I refuse more revisions because I think it opens me up to more headaches. So, for me, it's a big neeeewp and it's just money or arbitration, pal.

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Hypothetically, I wonder what the mediator would say if they were asked how many more revisions you should do? 

[lysis10]

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John K wrote:

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Jennifer M wrote:

Just because the mediator suggests more revisions doesn't mean you have to do them. I refuse more revisions because I think it opens me up to more headaches. So, for me, it's a big neeeewp and it's just money or arbitration, pal.

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Hypothetically, I wonder what the mediator would say if they were asked how many more revisions you should do? 

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That's why I reject any more work on the contract, but mediators always ask. By the time it's going into mediation, there has likely already been revisions and I think by agreeing to do more work, it gives the client an additional argument should it go to arbitration. I think it opens you up to additional criticism that can work against you. So, yeah, I reject anything that involves me doing anything else.

[yield9 · Accepted solution]

So sorry to hear about your experience, Emy F.  I haven't personally had this kind of problem yet, but I haven't sourced many jobs through Upwork yet.  The clients I have worked with paid promptly and were good to work for.  

My background in procurement law has taught me one important fact: Make sure all limits are in writing when you first agree to contract terms.  I do voice over work and copywriting/editing.  When I take on a job, I specify in the earliest communications that I offer ONE free revision based on their initial feedback only.  If they want more revisions after that, they pay for each one, and I specify either an hourly rate or a fixed price (depending on the type of project).  The SOW (scope of work) must be crystal clear so both you and the client know what the expectations are and exactly what the deliverables will be.  Specify all limits for everything before you accept the contract.  

Honest clients who have any business sense will have no problem agreeing to these terms - this protects everyone.  Dishonest clients that were planning on fishing you along with what amounts to endless 'free' work will freak out, claim you are dishonest and scurry away like cockroaches.  Which means that you win either way!

If you ensure your contractual stance is solid from the beginning, then Upwork will see that you have abided by the terms of your agreement and that the client is at fault.  

In your case, I guess that you need to cut your losses at some point and just walk away, taking the negative hit.

I wish you all the best in your current battle!

[gaucho76]

I only had a few disputes, until I learned that UpWork will always stand in the scammer's side, no exception. It's hard to swallow, but that's what my personal experience demonstrates.

On a couple cases I got my money back despite Upwork's complete failure to protect me, but I got more cautious and if I'm hit by a scammer I don't care much, it's a lot of energy wasted on nothing.

Dealing with UpWork representatives is really stressing , specially once you understand they're AGAINST YOU, so I don't even care anymore about them. I expect nothing from them , it's more healthy.

Hope you can resolve this in some way

[AveryO]

Hi Fabio, 

I'm sorry to learn about your experience on Upwork. I understand that it can be very frustrating especially if a mediation is closed in the other party's favour. If you would like to share the specific contracts where you had a bad experience with a client, or with the Mediation Team, please identify them with the Contract ID on your next reply so that our team can look into this further. 

[mammapata]

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Avery O wrote:

Hi Fabio, 

I'm sorry to learn about your experience on Upwork. I understand that it can be very frustrating especially if a mediation is closed in the other party's favour. If you would like to share the specific contracts where you had a bad experience with a client, or with the Mediation Team, please identify them with the Contract ID on your next reply so that our team can look into this further. 

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I'm in the middle of my dispute and what Fabio says reflects what's happening to me right now: I open a dispute because the customer has refused twice the payment of my work, after long delays and endless changes required, she waits for the fourteenth day to cancel the payment and ask me again for more changes.

The mediator proposes that I make the changes requested by the client and puts me back in the initial situation by demonstrating that she did not understand or that she did not really analyze the problem.

[lysis10]

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Emy F wrote:

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I'm in the middle of my dispute and what Fabio says reflects what's happening to me right now: I open a dispute because the customer has refused twice the payment of my work, after long delays and endless changes required, she waits for the fourteenth day to cancel the payment and ask me again for more changes.

The mediator proposes that I make the changes requested by the client and puts me back in the initial situation by demonstrating that she did not understand or that she did not really analyze the problem.

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So tell her/him that you don't wanna do that?

[mammapata]

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Jennifer M wrote:

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Emy F wrote:

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I'm in the middle of my dispute and what Fabio says reflects what's happening to me right now: I open a dispute because the customer has refused twice the payment of my work, after long delays and endless changes required, she waits for the fourteenth day to cancel the payment and ask me again for more changes.

The mediator proposes that I make the changes requested by the client and puts me back in the initial situation by demonstrating that she did not understand or that she did not really analyze the problem.

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So tell her/him that you don't wanna do that?

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Jennifer, of course, that's what I did.
With what I wrote I wanted to underline once again, confirming what Fabio said, that the mediation of Upwork was not with me fair and just as with him.

[lysis10]

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Emy F wrote:

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Jennifer, of course, that's what I did.
With what I wrote I wanted to underline once again, confirming what Fabio said, that the mediation of Upwork was not with me fair and just as with him.

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You understand that they can't take sides or decide who is right or wrong, correct? They are just making suggestions to stop it from going into arbitration. You understand this right? Because if you do, then fair wouldn't even be a concern. You just tell them what you're willing to do. Who cares what they suggest?

[mammapata]

This Is my first dispute on this site and I expected more from a mediation. I wrote to learn more, to get suggestions from other freelancers like me who have had the same experience.
I have obtained them and am very grateful for all the information I have received.

I've expressed what I think.

During the mediation, I also suggested ways to close the dispute in a friendly manner but were ignored, while only the customer's proposals to receive back the money or to obtain the required changes were considered. This did not seem impartial to me.

[lysis10]

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Emy F wrote:

This Is my first dispute on this site and I expected more from a mediation. I wrote to learn more, to get suggestions from other freelancers like me who have had the same experience.
I have obtained them and am very grateful for all the information I have received.

I've expressed what I think.

During the mediation, I also suggested ways to close the dispute in a friendly manner but were ignored, while only the customer's proposals to receive back the money or to obtain the required changes were considered. This did not seem impartial to me.

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Yes, I know it's your first dispute, that's why I'm trying to educate you on how to approach it. 99% of freelancers approach it thinking the mediator will side with someone and get frustrated that all this evidence doesn't change the mediator's opinion and the mediator is on the client side. They are on neither side. They are on Upwork's side. Their goal is to stop it from going into arbitration.

So, you need to approach it as "what will I take before I think arbitration is the right route" or "what do I want before I go for arbitration hoping the client will back down." That could be the whole escrow amount. it's up to you. If you tell tlhe mediator waht you will take or you want arbitration, you'll get like 2 emails from them before they tell you to pay for arbitration.

[mammapata]

I get it. Many thanks for the clarification and the detailed explanation. Highly appreciated.

[petra_r]

 During my one and only ever dispute to date I bit my toungue, said only as much as strictly necessary and as little as possible in a 100% matter-of-fact non-emotional manner and kept thinking "What would Jennifer do?"

I walked away with no refund to the client, all my money and no poor feedback.

But as far as experiences go it was indeed most unpleasant (I guess they make it so as a deterrent)

[prestonhunter]

re: "...and kept thinking 'What would Jennifer do?'"

[kochubei_valeria]

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Emy F wrote:

With what I wrote I wanted to underline once again, confirming what Fabio said, that the mediation of Upwork was not with me fair and just as with him.

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Hi Emy,

I'm sorry to hear you feel like the mediation process hasn't been fair. I've checked on your dispute ticket and see that our mediation specialist has explained and followed the purpose of the mediation, which is to facilitate the discussion and help the parties to come to a mutual agreement.

They will continue assisting you and your client with the process and I'll also forward feedback you've shared here to them.

[mammapata]

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Valeria K wrote:

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Emy F wrote:

With what I wrote I wanted to underline once again, confirming what Fabio said, that the mediation of Upwork was not with me fair and just as with him.

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Hi Emy,

I'm sorry to hear you feel like the mediation process hasn't been fair. I've checked on your dispute ticket and see that our mediation specialist has explained and followed the purpose of the mediation, which is to facilitate the discussion and help the parties to come to a mutual agreement.

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Dear Valeria,
I do not doubt that the specialist followed the purpose of the mediation.
But I am convinced that we can follow the purpose of mediation, continue to be kind, polite, follow all the rules that certainly a mediator must follow and be able to be impartial at the same time.

I finished the Milestone purpose respecting and realizing all the required changes. As the customer kept asking me for changes, I proposed a collaboration with the hourly rate. I also made myself available to get on with the work, on the condition that the client gives me clear dates of response and feedback and a clear number of acceptable changes on the finished work.

Ignored my proposals, the solution that continues to be suggested by the mediator is: "It's either he gets the money back or you complete what he requested you to do".

Money back or I do what the client asks.
This does not seem impartial to me.
This solution was obvious even before going to open a dispute. So what is the purpose of mediation? Is there someone who analyses the cases and the reasons for a dispute or is there a default proposal given to everyone?

At this point even the intervention of the mediation is not necessary, the better to go directly to the next step and avoid loss of time for all parties involved.