I think I got Scammed?

[d17bc553]

I recieved my first job from a client who wanted to rush an illustration. I stayed up all night to finish it, losing sleep and getting rest at about 5 in the morning. After all of this, the client seemed legit and money seemed to be getting processed? Then this morning I found out that the job got refunded without me even agreeing to it, I was never emailed or notified about anything beforehand. I'm really upset over everything, I don't think the client will respond to my messages either: I asked them if there was something wrong with my work. 

Thats 5 hours of my life for 1 hour of work (they specifically asked me to just input 1 hour of work so they only have to pay 20 USD) and so much money down the drain. What else could I possibly do?? I dont see any button to open a dispute about it.

[pgiambalvo]

Hi Jillian, so sorry this happened to you, especially since this was your first job here. As for as disputing it, check this out: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/sections/360002670934-Disputes

But after reading many stories such as yours, I've come to realize that when Upwork says a client's payment method has been verified, that doesn't mean they've also verified their ability to pay before giving them that designation.

[d17bc553]

Thanks for replying, Peter.
Everything is just so upsetting right now, and anyway I should've been cautious around the client in the first place anyway 😞 I'll take your advice in opening up the dispute.

[d17bc553]

Hi peter, upon checking again, the client did not send in a dispute: the funds just got automatically refunded to them. Still just so upset about everything, I don't understand why this would happen 😞

[pgiambalvo]

I've seen this happen to others who learned that the reason was because the client's card was declined. That's what I meant by verified payment method not meaning abilty to actually pay. But I'm sure Upwork will eventually let you know. Check out these similar nightmare stories: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Unauthorized-and-Auto-refund/m-p/573725#M348588

[d17bc553]

just read through these, this whole situation sucks and it doesn't seem like theres much else I or anyone can do. Anyway, thanks for the help, Peter.

[petra_r]

---

Peter G wrote:

I've come to realize that when Upwork says a client's payment method has been verified, that doesn't mean they've also verified their ability to pay before giving them that designation.

---

This is, once again, not correct. It has been explained to you more than  once..

Obviously, there is no way in the universe to verify that any payment will forever be able to be charged any amount in the future. That is simply a ridiculous and unrealistic idea.

What it does mean is that Upwork have verified that the client has added a payment method that can be charged and that the charge went through at that point in time and that the client had access to the online banking at the time the verification was done.

---

Peter G wrote:

As for as disputing it, check this out:

---

There is no way to dispute non-payment of manual time.

[a_lipsey]

Jillian, was this an hourly contract? What was the weekly limit on hours? 

[d17bc553]

Hi Amanda, 

It was an hourly contract, we agreed for me to manually input an hour of work. There was a weekly limit of 40 hours.

[JoanneP]

Hi Jillian,

I'm sorry to hear that. I checked and it looks like our team has notified you already via ticket about the refund. It seems like you have already updated the ticket as well. One of our agents will get back to you on the same ticket to assist further. 

[tagrendy]

It was a scammer, to protect yourself from these in the future, use time tracker software, track every minute of it and use memo's to describe what you're doing. With time tracker even if client refused to pay, Upwork will pay you out of pocked for the hours properly tracked. 

Do not agree to do manual hours, bonuses and be skeptical about fixed jobs as well when it comes to first-time clients. Scammers target new people the most.

[jaycrutcher]

Don't work for cheap, don't work desperate, don't work for free. Raise your rate, if you're good at what you do then you should get paid a decent rate. Don't let the desire to get a gig overwhelm your need to protect yourself and make well thought out decisions. Use the time tracker. Don't work for free. If it is going to take you 5 hours charge for 5 hours. If you're not certain, reach out to other freelancers.

P.S. If your client says they need an illustration in three hours that is a rush job. Charge them more.

[wlyonsatl]

Hi, Jillian.

Sorry for your loss, but this is a story we see reported regularly on this message board.

Upwork can't make its payment systems completely fraud proof, but I think Upwork should not allow new freelancers or new clients to use manual time on their projects. At a minimum this should be true for the projects of clients without a meaningful minimum history of successful projects paid in full.

Make both new freelancers and new clients earn the right to use manual time on their projects.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Will L wrote:

Hi, Jillian.

Sorry for your loss, but this is a story we see reported regularly on this message board.

Upwork can't make its payment systems completely fraud proof, but I think Upwork should not allow new freelancers or new clients to use manual time on their projects. At a minimum this should be true for the projects of clients without a meaningful minimum history of successful projects paid in full.

Make both new freelancers and new clients earn the right to use manual time on their projects.

---

**Edited for community guidelines**That level of baby-sitting would constitute serious interference in my business. One of my earliest clients was brand new to the platform and I was still relatively new at the time we connected. We contracted for several projects over the next couple of years that generated total billings of nearly $40k with every dollar billed through manual hours. After two years, we moved off the platform (per the client's preference to avoid the annoying UI) and continue to work together on several projects each year. You may recall that I've repeatedly encouraged inexperienced FLs to avoid manual hours if they can -- not all types of work are conducive to using UW's desktop tracker -- and at the very least, to be fully conversant and comfortable with the risk they are assuming. But I maintain it is the freelancer's responsibility, not Upwork's, to understand what they're doing and make their own choices. Independent contracting is an inherently risky business and anyone engaging in it needs to understand every so-called safety net has holes and weaknesses. We don't need UW meddling further than it already does.

[d17bc553]

You both have points. Now that some time has passed by, I understand this whole situation was partly if not mostly my fault for not being aware enough. I wasn't aware of the fixed rate contracts before I had accepted this one, again this was my first and I got the job literally an hour after I got my account running. Besides the point anyway, I appreciate everyone's answers, I'll definitely be more alert next time. This is a learning lesson for me.

[a_lipsey]

---

Jillian O wrote:

You both have points. Now that some time has passed by, I understand this whole situation was partly if not mostly my fault for not being aware enough. I wasn't aware of the fixed rate contracts before I had accepted this one, again this was my first and I got the job literally an hour after I got my account running. Besides the point anyway, I appreciate everyone's answers, I'll definitely be more alert next time. This is a learning lesson for me.

---

Well, it's not MOSTLY your fault at all. Even though you could have done better to protect yourself, this client is being a **** for disputing these hours, not discussing it with you, and essentially scamming you. A client with integrity would not do this. 

So, yes, you left yourself open, but that doesn't make it your fault. And at least now you know how to protect yourself and it wasn't you know, 100 hours of work you lost. 

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Jillian O wrote:

You both have points. Now that some time has passed by, I understand this whole situation was partly if not mostly my fault for not being aware enough. I wasn't aware of the fixed rate contracts before I had accepted this one, again this was my first and I got the job literally an hour after I got my account running. Besides the point anyway, I appreciate everyone's answers, I'll definitely be more alert next time. This is a learning lesson for me.

---

One of the most valuable items in a FL's toolkit is readiness to recognize and embrace lessons as they appear. I've made tons of mistakes over the years but try really hard to never make the same one more than twice! 😉

IMO the two most important things pertaining to this episode for you have been noted by others: understand and use contract terms to protect yourself, and don't under-value your time and expertise. It's easy to get carried away when you're anxious to land the first few projects but it serves you well to be more picky now than you'll ever be again. Good luck!

[wlyonsatl]

**Edited for community guidelines**

Upwork could allow very experienced freelancers like you who, presumably, know about the risk of being ripped off using manual time tracking, to verify that you accept this risk with each new client you agree to work with.

Such a new client would then be able to use manual time tracking when working with you.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Will L wrote:

**Edited for community guidelines**

Upwork could allow very experienced freelancers like you who, presumably, know about the risk of being ripped off using manual time tracking, to verify that you accept this risk with each new client you agree to work with.

Such a new client would then be able to use manual time tracking when working with you.

---

Advocating a policy that would have prevented me from doing business with a client that turned out to be a keystone relationship in my UW history, not to mention worth tens of thousands of dollars over the past several years, is hardly a molehill. Instead of meddling in clients' and FLs' business when they're setting up contracts, how about if UW directed comparable attention and resources to ensuring FLs are minimally equipped and competent to manage their own business before turning them loose on the platform? That would not only increase the likelihood of their making informed and responsible choices about contract terms but also equip them for safer and more profitable operations all the way around (and less drain on CS resources). Internal guardrails that simply impede traffic are not the way to go IMO. Better to make sure everybody knows how to drive before letting them onto the track.

[kfarnell]

---

Will L wrote:

Make both new freelancers and new clients earn the right to use manual time on their projects.

---

That would be damagingly restrictive. Some fields of work can only be done with manual time. Some involve primarily one-off projects. (For example, I've done library research for new clients.)  

[pgiambalvo]

I agree. I applaud Will's intent, but that would just not be practical for many types of jobs and freelancers. Me, for one.

[wlyonsatl]

So, Peter, Kim and Phyllis, how would what I suggest have a negative effect on community gurus like you and other experienced freelancers? You'd easily be able to allow any client you wish to work with to do so using manual time..

Or are any of you new freelancers, who are apparently the most vulnerable to doing work using manual time with unscrupulous "clients" who get their work done for free?

[a_lipsey]

Will, there are many freelancers who really can't use the time tracker all the time, including newbies. Those in creative fields who might need to work on paper come to mind, also freelancers who have to work with sensitive information (for example in the medical field to comply with privacy laws) who need to work without the time tracker. I agree that freelancers should use all the protection available to them when they can, but sometimes they cannot for a variety of reasons. Upwork should not be mandating that anyone MUST use the time tracker. If we choose to take the risk we should be able to take the risk. 

There's no way to mitigate all risk, on Upwork or off. Understanding how to mitigate these risks is something every freelancer must explore on their own and determine the best path for their business. 

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Will L wrote:

So, Peter, Kim and Phyllis, how would what I suggest have a negative effect on community gurus like you and other experienced freelancers? You'd easily be able to allow any client you wish to work with to do so using manual time..

Or are any of you new freelancers, who are apparently the most vulnerable to doing work using manual time with unscrupulous "clients" who get their work done for free?

---

Being new is not what makes people vulnerable to scammers and sharp dealers. Being uninformed is the problem -- uninformed about the platform and/or uninformed about how independent contracting works as a business. It's completely understandable that FLs charge onto the platform full of energy and aspirations and devoid of understanding about how to get where they want to go. A precious few avail themselves of the reams of information available, watch their step, seek advice, and get under way with minimal mishap. Most do not. IMO it's unconscionable of UW to let them plunge in head-first without forcing them -- by means of a mandatory readiness test that meaningfully gauges their readiness -- to demonstrate they are more than fresh chum for the scamming waters. At the same time, more or less constant calls for one or another measures to protect those lambs, measures that more often than not impede business for the rest of us, I find ridiculous. But maybe that's just me. But I don't think so.  

[pgiambalvo]

I guess the only problem I have with it is REQUIRING new freelancers to use it, but maybe I misunderstood. That would prevent the ones for whom their type of work doesn't lend itself to using the time tracker from being able to accept work. If you mean strongly suggesting they use it if they're able to, and also making it more clear to them when they sign up of the risks and benefits of the different ways they can paid, sure. But no, it wouldn't have a negative effect on us.

[wlyonsatl]

Hi, Peter.

If the problem were simply that Upwork isn't adequately forcing new freelancers to understand this particular element of all of its written and unwritten rules, maybe Upwork could do a better job in this respect.

I don't know what kind of testing of a new freelancer's knowledge of Upwork's rules, etc. is required of new freelancers before they are allowed to work on the platform. Perhaps someone who has joined Upwork in the past couple of moniths could tell us. The testing I underwant to join one of Upwork's predecssors was pretty minimal and I still find out new things by reading this message board from time to time.

I believe there is zero chance anyone can understand all the ins and outs of Upwork's written and unwritten rules, protocols, business processes, etc. by simply reading through any amount of written documentation. And this is expecially true of the new freelancers for whom English is not their first language.

In many countries people who want to get a driver's license must first get a learner's permit of some kind. Just reading the handbook and taking a written test doesn't prove a new driver can drive safely.

[martina_plaschka]

That is an idea that would greatly improve the platform, and lots of experienced freelancers are begging for it: a test! Not the readiness test which gives people free connects and is an absolute joke, a real test that requires them to actually read the ToS. With rotating questions, so they can't copy/paste from the internet. Or at least have to read the questions. 

And to answer your question: there is no test, absolutely nothing to give newbies even the most basic idea what they are dealing with, how it works, anything. I have no earthly idea why they don't even have the simplest test. The readiness test is voluntary and not connected to profile approval at all. 

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Peter G wrote:

I guess the only problem I have with it is REQUIRING new freelancers to use it, but maybe I misunderstood. That would prevent the ones for whom their type of work doesn't lend itself to using the time tracker from being able to accept work. If you mean strongly suggesting they use it if they're able to, and also making it more clear to them when they sign up of the risks and benefits of the different ways they can paid, sure. But no, it wouldn't have a negative effect on us.

---

UW already strongly suggests new FLs use the tracker for hourly work and makes it abundantly clear that manually logged time is not subject to any payment protection whatsoever. You can put all billboards and flashing lights in the world in front of somebody but it's their choice to pay attention or not. Making them pass a test about it before they're allowed to submit proposals or answer invitations, OTOH, would result in most of the ones who don't get informed on their own choosing one of two paths: back up and do the darned homework, or decide it's all too much hassle and go away. Win, win -- for the FLs, for the platform, for clients they might have tangled with, for the rest of us not having to pay to support CS to hold their hands...

And no, instituting a policy now that forces new FLs and new clients to only use tracked hours would not affect me. But it would have a huge negative outcome on the next version of me who has recently joined the platform and connects with a new client and they both, for whatever reasons, would choose to use manual hours. How dare any of us think about obstructing that for the sake of other FLs who lack the gumption to learn what they're about? 

[jr-translation]

You used 5 hours to create something for your porfolio. If the client does not pay the agreed amount, you own the work. Keep an eye out for it and if you find it online, file a DMCA.

[BojanS · Accepted solution]

Hi All,

Thanks for the discussion. I'm not aware of any plans to disallow the manual time options on hourly contracts newer users enter into. We will continue improving our education efforts and the ways we make important information available and accessible to users.