I thought that UPWORK is a platform that is f...

markpiocos · ‎04-13-2022

I thought that UPWORK is a platform that is free from scams. I have decided to work as a freelancer on this platform. One time I worked for a certain client and was able to submit the said job, I was paid, and even UPWORK has gotten the service charge. My client has decided to go off-platform and file a dispute with their financial institution. And right now, the bank and UPWORK have decided to ask for a full refund for a job that was done and paid, and all they can help me is file a dispute with the said bank, and the last decision will be from the bank. I cannot contact my client, as they seemed to have a problem with UPWORK and were banned(I don't know their issue); I worked for this client for 5 projects. I am disappointed with UPWORK with the way they handle the situation as this would mean that despite us(freelancers) paying for the service charge for the paid jobs, it seems that we, the freelancer, are not truly secured when it comes to payment. I want to resolve this issue quietly, but I have realized that it would be better to inform other freelancers as $650 for a refund is quite a big amount. As of now, I have filed a dispute and all UPWORK could say is "We can try to help too, by submitting a rebuttal to your client’s bank on your behalf. If you’d like us to do that, timing is critical. Please reply to this email within 48 hours and attach proof of the work or deliverables you completed for the client.

Keep in mind that while we are happy to submit this rebuttal for you, the client’s bank will have the final say, and we have no control over the outcome."

I am hoping to get a positive outcome to this, but all I have is myself vs. the bank based on the reply sent; it seems that UPWORK submitting the dispute is all they could help, and I am thankful for this but I really hope that this matter will solve other issues that may come up in the future and they would make a better solution than this.

I will continue working on UPWORK despite this as it seems that the fault is from my client, and all the available solution that UPWORK(as of the moment) is this.

Thank you

markpiocos · ‎04-13-2022

The title is by no means a hate speech to UPWORK it's just that base on this issue, clients can find loopholes when it comes to their payment and can request a refund from their bank despite freelancers submitting and finishing the said job.

emmamclaren · ‎04-13-2022

They won't do anything to help. Who knows whether they actually send off any proof because you won't be copied into anything.

Apparently - and this is a direct quote from an Upwork Customer Service rep - it is up to us as freelancers "to discuss your client’s ability and willingness to make future payments before resuming any work for them."

In other words - as freelancers, it is up to us to make sure clients aren't scammers and can pay their bills.

And another quote " Upwork is a community of professionals and we believe the words we use on this platform are important to preserving the professional integrity of our community." However, don't expect any professional integrity from Upwork in freezing your account without warning.

Not quite sure what we pay our fees towards, but hey - it all falls on us apparently because we didn't pick up that our clients were scammers or had their cards hacked so did chargebacks on everything (which is what happened to me)

markpiocos · ‎04-13-2022

I hope that it was resolved, and can I know what has been the solution that was offered to you? Is your dispute successful?

I really hope UPWORK can create a solution regarding the protection of the freelancers to this issue, as it seems that I am not the only one that has encountered this problem. I totally understand that there is no perfect platform, and every day is a learning experience.

feed_my_eyes · ‎04-14-2022

Mark Christian P wrote:
I thought that UPWORK is a platform that is free from scams.

You are hugely mistaken. Read this: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Community-Blog/Top-Red-Flags-for-Scams-From-Community-Member-Wes-C/b...

Mark Christian P wrote:
One time I worked for a certain client and was able to submit the said job, I was paid, and even UPWORK has gotten the service charge. My client has decided to go off-platform and file a dispute with their financial institution. And right now, the bank and UPWORK have decided to ask for a full refund for a job that was done and paid, and all they can help me is file a dispute with the said bank, and the last decision will be from the bank. I cannot contact my client, as they seemed to have a problem with UPWORK and were banned(I don't know their issue); I worked for this client for 5 projects. I am disappointed with UPWORK with the way they handle the situation as this would mean that despite us(freelancers) paying for the service charge for the paid jobs, it seems that we, the freelancer, are not truly secured when it comes to payment.

A few facts here. 1. Upwork doesn't get their service charge when clients file chargebacks; they lose their money, too. 2. Upwork and the bank did not "decide" to ask for a full refund. Either your client demanded a chargeback from his bank, or he was using a stolen credit card and the rightful owner asked for their money back.

Upwork offers payment protection on hourly contracts because there's proof (if you've followed the instructions) of the work that's been done, but with fixed price contracts, if your client issues a chargeback, all Upwork can do is try to help you with the dispute. If you decide to work with someone, they are your client, not Upwork's client, and it's up to you to vet them and decide how you want to handle the project. If you don't want to take any risks, then you should stick with hourly contracts.

ericaandrews · ‎04-14-2022

I'm sorry to hear you've gone through this.

The VERY first thing you should know about Upwork is that there is no "Payment Protection", despite what they advertise (https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211062568-Upwork-Payment-Protection)

Even if you do everything by the book: Only work with clients with verified payment methods, only work after a contract is in place, use the time tracker and document what you are working on, only bill legitimate honest hours, etc there is STILL no actual 'guarantee' you will be paid.

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

The closest thing to 'payment protection' you can get is to never work with a client that doesn't have a profile showing they've been on the platform at least 90 days, and has a clear record of contracts that have closed and they have paid listed on their profile. If I don't see closed contracts with hours/dollars paid out to freelancers, I don't even bother. If they are 'new' and have nothing but a bunch of 'in progress' jobs open that just started recently, I don't even deal with them because they might be planning to scam a bunch of people at once and never pay. I avoid clients that just 'recently' joined in the past month and immediately 'hired' lots of people that all have jobs 'in progress'. I might 'bookmark' that job post and check back months later to see if they actually paid those freelancers, but I'm not working with them now because they are unproven clients currently.

I look for them to have some contracts that were COMPLETED at least 30 days ago and money was paid to the freelancer and the freelancer either left a positive review or left no review. I know if the client had scammed that freelancer that long ago, that client would have either have been banned/suspended or you'd see bad feedback from freelancers complaining that he/she doesn't pay or doesn't pay on time. I avoid clients with less than 4 stars and multiple 'bad' feedback entries, especially complaints about the client refusing to pay, abusive behavior, clients being 'unresponsive' and 'ghosting', demanding extra work, or trying to cheat people out of their money. If they don't have any 'stars' or 'feedback', I don't even bother with them. I better see feedback and mostly 'rave' reviews or I move on.

It sounds harsh, but the only proof a client can provide that they are going to pay, is a proven record of them actually paying other people before I work with them. I will not be the person that 'tries out' a "new" client with no track record and gets scammed. Just not doing it. It's too risky. In God I trust, all others pay cash.

Also, I stay away from clients that appear to keep hiring the same 1, 2, or 3 freelancers over and over because they usually are hiring themselves under fake 'freelancer' accounts they created and trying to create a fake appearance than they are 'hiring' and 'paying' many freelancers.

I also look at the TYPES of freelancers they have hired in the past (by opening their profiles). Do their past freelancers look like real, regular freelancers? Or, do they look like shady con artists and crooks? If the people the client hired don't look 'legit', then the client is probably also not 'legit'.

Lastly, if I do 'interview' with the client and anything - I mean anything at all - feels "off" or "not right" or "not comfortable", that is the end of the interview for me. I trust my hunch and intuition. If something about a client doesn't look, feel, or seem "right", it probably isn't. I don't question it. I just politely end the interview and move on.

These may seem like harsh rules on my end, a 'high bar' for clients to meet, and may mean I might miss some legitimate good opportunities. I'm fine with that. However, what I can tell you is this: Of my entire time on this platform, I have never not been paid for the work I've performed, and I have never been scammed on here because of this extreme level of caution. I am very risk averse 😄 I don't have FOMO, I have FOGC (fear of getting scammed)

The only 'payment protection' you have on this platform is yourself, and all you can do now is raise the standard of who you 'trust' and become more selective with who you work with.

atlinguist · ‎04-14-2022

A client with a proven record of actually paying someone is NO GUARANTEE that said client is legit! Don't let that fool you, newbies! Some scams start with clients creating wonderful-looking profiles (and hiring their own people).

ericaandrews · ‎04-14-2022

You apparently didn't read my post all the way through. If they have been on the platform MORE than 90 days and have freelancers they have PAID, and you can SEE the money on those legitimate Freelancer's profiles as PAID, and they been paying people for several months or more and receiving good feedback from LEGITIMATE freelancers, than they are often worth the 'connects'. Like I said, I am now "new" to the platform and I have never been scammed. A 'proven track' record is pay is just ONE of the items I said I look for, not the ONLY item. Please read the entire post. What I said is that if I don't see a proven track record, I don't look any further. I did not say that was the end of my 'vetting' process. If they interview me and tell me their company name (or if their Company name shows up after I send the proposal), I go look them up on the Better Business Bureau and elsewhere, and RESEARCH who they are before I even respond to any messages they send. If I see something I don't like, they get no response and get BLOCKED. If anything about them doesn't 'look right' to me, they get ignored and BLOCKED. Period. I can promise you I am not 'new' to this by any stretch of the imagination. Like I said, I have never been scammed or not paid on here before, and there's a reason for that. What I said if you don't see clear initial proof that they have been paying people, they aren't usually worth looking any further into unless you just feel like 'taking a risk'. However, in my experience, if Upwork is reporting a client has paid over $1-2 million dollars out over 5 years, and is an 'enterprise client', they usually are not the 'scam artists' on here.

calado-marco · ‎04-14-2022

Hi Christian

Your post is unfortunately a reflex of the current worry of all freelancer out there.

Also unfortunately the awnser is no. Not because it's upwork but simply because everything online is subject to that, specially everything that deals with money and most of all everything that can get work for free or get money from everybody else.

So it's not just Upwork but ALL freelancing platforms.

Christine's link to a post here by Wes is a a really good reminder.

Wes's post gives really good red flags to avoid this situations.

I'm also attaching my response to his post with some samples that happened to me on this platform so that you can get an idea of the kind of sugar coated trickery language this grifters use, hope it helps.

My best regards and all the best to you!

martina_plaschka · ‎04-14-2022

Why in earth did you think that? Scams are everywhere on the internet, and upwork is no exception.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎04-14-2022

There is never a guarantee that a client will pay what they owe. That is not an UW issue, that is the case whether you are using other online platforms or doing business in the bricks-and-mortar world. Biggest loss I ever took was a client I worked with directly (remotely but not through any platform) who was a great client for six months and then cheated me out of several thousand dollars. Several years ago the Freelancers Union compiled what they called the Longest Invoice in the World, or something of the kind -- over $2 million worth of unpaid invoices submitted by freelancers who'd been cheated by clients and couldn't afford to chase payments.

The fact is freelancing can be precarious and people who are naturally risk-averse are likely not going to be happy at it.

jr-translation · ‎04-14-2022

Is the refund issued for 1 contract or all 5?

Was it a ghostwriting job?
You should have no problem to provide proof of the delivery if you used Upwork properly.

In case the client still gets away with the refund, the work belongs to you again so you might want to start tracking it down. If you can prove, that the client has published your work even better for you.

At this point, I would not reply on anyone, expect the money to be gone and start reducing the damage.

markpiocos · ‎05-03-2022

Just for 1 contract(the very first), I asked him about it and was told that the credit card he used was stolen. The very first request for a refund was an amount of $325. Then as we progress and while Upwork was resolving the first issue we encountered, I worked on several other contracts for this client, and was paid. Until such time that I cannot contact the client, I still have 1 job that is needed to be submitted but as of the moment, I cannot contact him.

Also, the protection that is offered for the freelancers is only applied to the hourly-based jobs and not the milestone. This is saddening but, it is what it is and we just need to move on in life.

rexmello · ‎10-17-2022

I faced same issue twice and according to upwork the bank has final say in it. It takes 90 days so I want to ask you did your issue get resolved?

sabrina_tabassum · ‎10-17-2022

Same problem here. Already returned $4000 without any warning and closed client account saying the client is fraud. Now upwork wants another $1000 to be returned to them and said banks have the final decision. What was the outcome in your case?