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Implied blackmail

numbsain
Community Guru
Ray C Member Since: Jun 17, 2015
1 of 22

Suppose you do a logo design job. In most cases the idea or concept is 90% of the work, and once the client has glanced at it, he has it. So all he has to do is say, "i don't like it" and ask for his money back. You've technically done what he asked for so you don't have to give him a refund.

But once he's paid you he can give you a lousy rating, and if you haven't been here that long, that can knock your score way down. So if he simply says, "that was the worst logo design i've ever seen and all your work is horrible," he is, for all intents and purposes, threatening to give you a bad rating if he has to pay you, or, essentially, he's blackmailing you.


Therefor if someone wanted to get his job done for free all he would have to do is invite a designer who is clearly good enough to do his job, but hasn't been around that long so a bad review would hurt him. and then simply take the work, say he hated it, and make it clear the review was going to show no mercy, and bingo! Free logo design!

Am i wrong? Is this not an inherent flaw or loophole in the system that wouldnt take any brains at all for someone to figure out? All he would need is an overdrawn moral bank account. He can throw in a dose of racist hatred for the stereotype of person he's hired (while still appreciating the quality of craftsmanship "your kind" usually delivers.)


And if he really wanted to make sure the freelancer he hired fails, he can describe the job in meaningless terms and keep changing what he wants so that the minute you say anything about it, that's his cue to start the mudslinging with little comments about how "you're the designer! you should know what i meant be 'more swoopy' or 'flowy' and other such technical terms." Have any of you ever had a client pull that one on you?

battershall-ramo
Community Guru
Ramon B Member Since: Jan 11, 2015
2 of 22

Yes, that's exactly what happened to me on my first job. Having had two brilliantly researched reports written for him, the client made up a load of nonsense in order to avoid paying me for the third one. It was even more prevalent then, before escrow was added.

lysis10
Community Guru
Jennifer M Member Since: May 17, 2015
3 of 22

Happens in writing too, and had I not been dumb and read more into the guy's history, I wouldn't have fallen for it. I went through the dispute process and won, though.

 

One reason I'd like to be able to see client's history of cancellations, is that this guy had a long history of cancelling and asking for refunds. You could see that on Elance. Can't see that here. He was exactly what  you state. Fund escrow (slowly... red flag) and then just said "all wrong... you suck."

 

Luckily, according to the arbitrator, a client must put forth a reasonable effort to help get the project done as well as the freelancer, so if it's a project where you communicate but he doesn't, you could win the dispute. "This all sucks do it over" wasn't enough communication according to the arbitrator.

colettelewis
Community Guru
Nichola L Member Since: Mar 13, 2015
4 of 22

Somebody posted yesterday about exactly that. The client paid, gave the freelancer lousy and untrue feedback, and then disputed.  Very, very unfair.

numbsain
Community Guru
Ray C Member Since: Jun 17, 2015
5 of 22

Well i haven't given him a refund or asked for payment yet but it seems like support is telling me I have request payment before i can file a dispute, which is no help at all because he could pay and then destroy my rating!

Why are clients who don't know an anchor point from an elbow (well you know what i mean) rating our skill level? And why am i being asked to rate an insurance brokers skill level when i'm designing his logo and don't know anything about how good an insurance broker her is other than what he tells me? It's like the whole thing was designed without any real thought put into it. If i had been asked to design Upwork I wouldn't have gotten the job because i would have thought it through and done it right.

But this ratings thing is just one of so many problems here that is making me wish i hadn't invested so much time into upwork. Most of the jobs seem to be scammers or people that have so little experience that they eat up your whole life with questions like "Why can't i have rgb colors on my business card?" or "I want the original source file in a layered jpg, what am i supposed to do with these vectors?" then you have to explain to them from the beginning...

Me: "Way back in 1988 a company emerged called Adobe, and around the same time people started communicating a different way, it was called the internet. Well it seems old man Adobe anticipated that blah blah blah... [4 hours later] ...so that's why i designed your logo in vectors."

Client: "Oh. But what IS a vacter anyway? And why can't i erase it? And how come you talk so much mister?"                                                      

lysis10
Community Guru
Jennifer M Member Since: May 17, 2015
6 of 22

 

Is she new? My experience on elance is that when someone hates my work they usually just pay and don't say anything. I would take advantage if you want  payment and close the contract yourself and then just cross fingers she doesn't come back to rate you.

 

You can give money back, but both parties have the opportunity to leave a response for the refund. If she's not happy, it's unlikely she will give you good feedback anyway.

 

You actually have a better chance to avoid a bad rating with a payment rather than a refund. A refund forces her to choose a reason why. If you get paid and close the contract, there is a small chance that she'll just never log in to rate you within the allotted time.

numbsain
Community Guru
Ray C Member Since: Jun 17, 2015
7 of 22

I'll respond to you because you seem to be one of the big wigs around here. SO are you saying that even if i give a refund (it's a he actually) he can still rate me ? I thought refund meant no harm no fowl and he's not allowed to affect my rating, no? I would sure like to get paid but i have 30 some jobs only under my belt and i had two other clients give me less than perfect scores for really awful reasons. and i can't let it go below 90% or i'll never get any jobs!

the first one was a really hilarious story though. do you have a minute? Oh well too bad haha!

It was for a woman who was having a horrible logo she herself had done redone by me at her bosses request. It was a logo for a childrens dentist. He wanted an old fashioned choo-choo train with a smiling face/white teeth—cute idea right?  So i did a beautiful little train (attached), she hated it! I was completely confused at first because i was sure she was gonna love it. She didn't even call me back for 2 weeks.

Finally she said it just wasn't saying "dentist" enough! (because kids would rather be reminded that they are getting their teeth drilled!) So she says can you put two kids in the train holding tooth brushes!!! (see attachment) That goes on a business card, remember. look at the size of the windows. I stayed calm.

I suggested having the kids riding on top of the train so you might be able to make out the 1/16" toothbrush and i drew a really lousy pencil sketch of the idea. She was thrilled "Oh yes that's much more what we had in mind" (it looked lousy). So i rendered it with the same care and detail of the first one and actually made it work. She's pissed now "this just isn't working. I wanted the girl to have a (now this is the clincher) A PIECE OF DENTAL FLOSS IN HER HAND!!!!

I stayed calm and i started to explain that it would not be visible at that size, (it would need to be a piece of ROPE to be visible, i wanted to say). That was it, she ended the contract. Paid me and marked me way down for quality and skill. I was like huh? to say the least, thoroughly discombobulated to say the most. A friend figured it out for me. I was making hers look too bad in comparison and she never showed it to her boss.

I literally "revo tneb" for this woman. But what is it they say?: No good deed...


csjarmitage
Community Guru
Christy A Member Since: Dec 30, 2015
8 of 22

If it's any consolation, I love the train!

numbsain
Community Guru
Ray C Member Since: Jun 17, 2015
9 of 22

thank you Christy!

tlsanders
Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
10 of 22

@Ray C wrote:

Well i haven't given him a refund or asked for payment yet but it seems like support is telling me I have request payment before i can file a dispute, which is no help at all because he could pay and then destroy my rating!

                                                   


 Possibly you are worrying too much about this. Yes, a bad rating can hurt you in a number of ways, but so can being so paralyzed by fear of one that you can't do what seems appropriate to you and instead end up investing a bunch of time and energy in trying to figure out how to control the behavior of one bad client.

 


@Ray C wrote:


Why are clients who don't know an anchor point from an elbow (well you know what i mean) rating our skill level? And why am i being asked to rate an insurance brokers skill level when i'm designing his logo and don't know anything about how good an insurance broker her is other than what he tells me? It's like the whole thing was designed without any real thought put into it. If i had been asked to design Upwork I wouldn't have gotten the job because i would have thought it through and done it right.

                                                   


 They're not, and you're not.

 

They are being asked to rate your success at providing what they asked for in a manner that was collegial, convenient for them, timely, etc.

 

You're being asked to rate the quality of instruction they gave you, the timeliness of their responses, how professionally they behaved, whether they paid promptly, etc.

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