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chris_bannu
Community Member

Important Updates to our Terms of Service

Hey guys,

Just received the following via email:

------------------------

We are clarifying permissible modes of communication between individuals on our site to reduce unwelcome off-platform solicitation.

We want to be clear that professionals and clients cannot make unsolicited contact off of the Upwork platform. While often well-intentioned, any type of outreach that bypasses our communication tools and safeguards without an explicit invitation from the other party can be perceived as unwelcome and a violation of privacy. Going forward, users who are found to be violating the privacy of other users in this way will be removed from using our service further.

----------------------------------

Just to make sure I understand this correctly, I cannot contact a client who I started a contract with on Skype, without him inviting me to do so. Is that correct?

Thanks,

Chris

 

56 REPLIES 56
prestonhunter
Community Member

re: "Just to make sure I understand this correctly, I cannot contact a client who I started a contract with on Skype, without him inviting me to do so. Is that correct?"

 

That is correct.

 

It is kind of disappointing that Upwork had to actually write this out and add it to their ToS. Most of us would have already known this and would never have done something in violation of this rule.

 

But the simple fact is that some freelancers were indeed making nuisances of themselves and were contacting clients directly through other communication methods, separate from any the client had invited them to use.

 

Very inappropriate and distasteful behavior.

jasna_zepp
Community Member

To me this reads as though the client can't intiate the contact off Upwork either ("clients cannot make unsolicited contact off of the Upwork platform"). So really, no one appears to be allowed to make the invitation, yet the invitation is needed in order to skype with the client. I don't know if this is unclear by mistake or by intention, but I see it as yet another sign of how little Upwork cares for its users.

It's undeniable that some users aren't playing by the rules. It's also undeniable that even if you want to follow the rules, it's almost impossible to find them, or understand them, and even if you do, three months later they go and change it all without proper notification.


Jasna S wrote:

("clients cannot make unsolicited contact off of the Upwork platform"). (...) I see it as yet another sign of how little Upwork cares for its users.


Unsolicited is the operative word here. When both of you agree to talk on the phone or on Skype, the communication is solicited. On the other hand, when one party calls the other party on the phone, Sype or whatnot and the other party never agreed to be contacted that way, the contact is unsolicited.

 

I don't know how Upwork displays any lack of care about anything here.

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless

Lack of care is evident in how poorly they've worded this "clarification" in their email, and how difficult it is to find any information on it elsewhere. The fact that people are here on this forum trying to figure things out is proof enough. The fact that you've just made it clear in two sentences shows how easily it can be done.

Also, thank you for doing that.

versailles
Community Member


Cristian B wrote:

 

Just to make sure I understand this correctly, I cannot contact a client who I started a contract with on Skype, without him inviting me to do so. Is that correct?

 


If this is an unsolicited contact, yes, you are not allowed to contact them in any way, but Upwork messaging system.

 

If, on the other hand they gave you their Skype handle and they asked you to call them, in this case you are free to do so.

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
dsmgdesign
Community Member


Cristian B wrote:

Hey guys,

Just received the following via email:

------------------------

We are clarifying permissible modes of communication between individuals on our site to reduce unwelcome off-platform solicitation.

We want to be clear that professionals and clients cannot make unsolicited contact off of the Upwork platform. While often well-intentioned, any type of outreach that bypasses our communication tools and safeguards without an explicit invitation from the other party can be perceived as unwelcome and a violation of privacy. Going forward, users who are found to be violating the privacy of other users in this way will be removed from using our service further.

----------------------------------

Just to make sure I understand this correctly, I cannot contact a client who I started a contract with on Skype, without him inviting me to do so. Is that correct?

Thanks,

Chris

 


That's not entirely correct, at least the way I'm reading it. You don't have to wait for the client to invite you. You can ask the client (on Upwork) if they would like to communicate through Skype. If they agree, then you are free to communicate with them that way. 

I agree. I think it is completely fine to ask a client if you can have his email address, or phone number, or Skype handle, or anything else.

 

And then if he shares that with you, go ahead and communicate with him that way.

 

What is NOT fine is if you are hired or interviewed by a client, and then you use knowledge you glean from your job or conversations with her to look up other contact information that she never provided to you... such as a phone number. (This includes doing a Google search to find alternative contact information. Don't do that.) And then you call her. Or go to her house. Or ping her on Skype. Or whatever.

 

Definitely not acceptable.

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on the precise wording here. We know what is right and wrong. If this wasn't 100% codified before, then it was already an "unwritten rule."


For those pests who try to violate this rule, Upwork is clearly signalling the platform's intent to REMOVE such freelancers from the platform. That is a good thing.

For example, I once had a potential client track me down and try to call me on my home telephone number.  Not cool and I blocked him.

Same here Mary, and agreed, not cool at all!!!  

belich-javor
Community Member

I see that Terms of Service is updated and will be effective on coming April.

 

It says that "any type of outreach that bypasses our communication tools and safeguards without an explicit invitation from the other party can be perceived as unwelcome and a violation of privacy".

 

Does it mean that I cannot share email during the interview?

Sometimes, the clients need my email address to invite me to their slack or Jira.

re: "Does it mean that I cannot share email during the interview?"

 

You may share your email address during the interview.

 

That is fine.


What this update means is you can't google a client's name and figure out his email address or phone number, etc., and pester him. If the client didn't give you his email addess, then you don't email him.

zohaumar
Community Member

Good day everyone! 

I have received an email from Upwork stating their TOS Updates, out of which they have focused on permissible modes of communication. 

 

My question is, is it now allowed or not allowed to talk to clients on Skype or join their Slack Teams? I can always ask for my clients to stick to Upwork but some of them when they ask for my Skype/Zoom account for voice calls and screen shares, I do give the information to them and we communicate there, obviously while the contract is active and ongoing on Upwork. However, I want to make sure moving forward, that talking on Skype/Zoom/Slack doesn't count as a violation. 

 

Talking to interviewers on Skype: I have also received interviews in the past where the client prefers to share the brief via screen-share on Zoom or Skype, will that be still permissible to not?

 

Any clarification on it will be highly appreciated. While I have, and will never ask a client to pay me outside of Upwork, some of my client's communication modes are Zoom and Skype Screenshares for a brief exchange, I hope moving forward, that doesn't put me into any type of error so I want to be ready for it. 

 

 

petra_r
Community Member


Zoha U wrote:

 

My question is, is it now allowed or not allowed to talk to clients on Skype or join their Slack Teams? I can always ask for my clients to stick to Upwork but some of them when they ask for my Skype/Zoom account for voice calls and screen shares, I do give the information to them and we communicate there, obviously while the contract is active and ongoing on Upwork. However, I want to make sure moving forward, that talking on Skype/Zoom/Slack doesn't count as a violation. 

 

Talking to interviewers on Skype: I have also received interviews in the past where the client prefers to share the brief via screen-share on Zoom or Skype, will that be still permissible to not?


You may continue to communicate with your clients any way you and your clients agree to communicate.


What you are not allowed to do is somehow figure out the client's skype, or email, or website etc etc and contract them there without the client's consent. 

 

I am not sure why people think that email is misleading or ambiguous.

 

If reading for context, it's perfectly clear. 

 

Agreed contact and communication outside of Upwork = fine

UNSOLICITED contact and communication outside of Upwork = not fine

zohaumar
Community Member

Thank you for the clarification, Petra. 

Not exactly misleading or ambiguous, I wanted to make sure I understand it correctly. 

petra_r
Community Member


Zoha U wrote:

Thank you for the clarification, Petra. 

Not exactly misleading or ambiguous, I wanted to make sure I understand it correctly. 


I didn't mean you, I meant this:

 

Jasna S wrote:

Lack of care is evident in how poorly they've worded this "clarification" in their email, and how difficult it is to find any information on it elsewhere. The fact that people are here on this forum trying to figure things out is proof enough. 

 

Seriously?

 

I don't think so. People just selectively half-read, jump to (wrong and entirely avoidable) conclusions, and then panic.

Anyone with basic English skills who actually bothers to read it with even a modicum of attention should be able to understand what it says. 

 


Petra R wrote:

Zoha U wrote:

Thank you for the clarification, Petra. 

Not exactly misleading or ambiguous, I wanted to make sure I understand it correctly. 


I didn't mean you, I meant this:

 

Jasna S wrote:

Lack of care is evident in how poorly they've worded this "clarification" in their email, and how difficult it is to find any information on it elsewhere. The fact that people are here on this forum trying to figure things out is proof enough. 

 

Seriously?

 

I don't think so. People just selectively half-read, jump to (wrong and entirely avoidable) conclusions, and then panic.

Anyone with basic English skills who actually bothers to read it with even a modicum of attention should be able to understand what it says. 

 


Yes, Petra, seriously. But please, don't let that utter lack of understanding of the problem stop you from posting about it.

 

I did not selectively half-read. I read the entire email, twice, and the relevant sections of the Terms of Sevice. I did not panic. I also did not understand what any of that was intended to say.

 

The problem should not be mine to solve in the first place. They emailed me.  Why? The email is ambiguous. What is the point of an email saying it's trying to "clarify" points, if it is not only failing to clarify, but actually increasing our confusion?

 

All we want from Upwork is an official communication clearly saying what we are and are not allowed to do.

Or is there a reason why we're not getting that?

 


Jasna S wrote: I read the entire email, twice, and the relevant sections of the Terms of Sevice. I did not panic. I also did not understand what any of that was intended to say.

That is really unfortunate...

 


Jasna S wrote:

All we want from Upwork is an official communication clearly saying what we are and are not allowed to do.

Or is there a reason why we're not getting that?


Please take a look at Vladimir confirming it on the previous page.

 

You are allowed to communicate with your clients and prospective clients in any way both of you agree to. Within Upwork, outside Upwork, Skype, email, Facebook, Whatsapp, by phone, in person, smoke signals, carrier pigeons, telepathy. You name it, it's allowed if mutually agreed upon.

 

You are not allowed to contact clients outside the platform in ways the client did not agree to be contacted in, nor may clients contact you outside the platform in ways you didn't consent to.



 

You are allowed to communicate with your clients and prospective clients in any way both of you agree to. Within Upwork, outside Upwork, Skype, email, Facebook, Whatsapp, by phone, in person, smoke signals, carrier pigeons, telepathy. You name it, it's allowed if mutually agreed upon.

Pity it took two hours of my time and an **Edited for Community Guidelines** on the forum to find out about it. Two hours I could have spent working, if only the initial email had made any freaking sense.

It's actually quite ambiguous and lacking detail. For example, I had an abusive client who (after repeated personal and professional insults) was trying to trick me into doing free work. After asking me to start a milestone and funding it, they then sent a cryptic message via Upwork about the milestone, and would not respond there, so I eventually used the email address they'd provided me months earlier, though we had been primarily communicating via Upwork message.

It was not a directly solicitied communication, and they in fact tried to gaslight me saying I was "harrassing" them for getting in touch that way. But they had provided the contact info previously, and were not responding to Upwork messages about a work and monetary issue on a tight timeline that they'd insisted I stick to.

It's completely unclear how Upwork would handle such a situation with this new rule.

eugene_bazhenov
Community Member

Dear Upwork! Could you please, provide a clear explanation of the question asked at the beginning of this thread? Maybe your update is clear for a lawyer, but I'm just a designer and I'm interested in what's going to happen if calling feature in the Upwork Messenger doesn't work and what if the client asks to move the call to Zoom? Or what if I want to make the call on the go using a phone - and what if I propose a client to chat on Skype providing my Skype id OR requesting client's Skype id?

 

It's very useful to see different opinions of other freelancers, but this matter, in particular, is very sensitive and would be very nice to receive some clear explanations from Upwork Team about the matter. Would be also nice if the answers are provided in a clear way so that ordinary human beings without a law degree (like me, myself and I) could actually understand what's allowed and what's not.


Eugene B wrote:

Would be also nice if the answers are provided in a clear way so that ordinary human beings without a law degree (like me, myself and I) could actually understand what's allowed and what's not.


It (clearly) states that you may not contact a client outside the platform without the other party asking you to do so

 

If a client asks you to communicate on Skype, that's fine if you agree

If you ask a client to communicate via email, that's fine if the client agrees.

 

What is NOT fine is making UNSOLICITED contact outside the platform.

 

It is to stop rogue freelancers hunting down clients via their website, social media, linked in, etc etc etc and hounding them to get hired.


THAT is what is being addressed here, not normal freelancers and clients going about their business.

 

 

 

Hi Eugene,

 

I understand your concern with the latest ToS update and appreciate posting your question in the Community.

 

I'd like to confirm the clarification and examples Petra, Preston, Rene, David, Mary and Valerie shared are correct. When a user agrees to use Upwork they also agree not to make unsolicited contact outside of Upwork, for example, spam or attempt to contact another Upwork user via a social media account, email address, etc. without their permission.

 

The scenario you mentioned does entail having an understanding with the client and their permission (and vice versa, the client having your permission) to use other communication platforms (while keeping that relationship on Upwork), which is in line with Upwork ToS.

~ Vladimir
Upwork

Vladimir, can you clarify how that would apply to the situation I described in my previous comment? I am concerned that an already abusive and gaslighting client could then use my attempt to contact them via previously established email communication to get me kicked off the platform.

Hi! Dylan.

Please note that, as a matter of convention, the mods tend to avoid making rulings on specific scenarios of your kind.

Please feel free to consult with an attorney for advice based on your specific situation.

Smiley LOL

Hi Dylan,

 

Thanks for the question. While I won't be able to advise on the outcome because I don't have the insight and all the information (not that I don't trust your account of the problem), I can confirm our team reviews all the information and can identify false reports. That being said this ToS update on unsolicited contacts will go into effect on April 3. and from the sound of it, it appears this situation occurred in the past. I do see you also mentioned the client shared their personal contact with you previously, which our team would take into account. We don't tolerate making false accusations and abusing our violation reporting features.

Going forward, in case a client is not responding to a freelancer's messages, you can always reach out to us here or to Customer Support and our team will take a look and would be able to reach out to them on your behalf.

~ Vladimir
Upwork


Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Eugene,

 

I understand your concern with the latest ToS update and appreciate posting your question in the Community.

 

I'd like to confirm the clarification and examples Petra, Preston, Rene, David, Mary and Valerie shared are correct. When a user agrees to use Upwork they also agree not to make unsolicited contact outside of Upwork, for example, spam or attempt to contact another Upwork user via a social media account, email address, etc. without their permission.

 

The scenario you mentioned does entail having an understanding with the client and their permission (and vice versa, the client having your permission) to use other communication platforms (while keeping that relationship on Upwork), which is in line with Upwork ToS.


I should think it would help clients a great deal if, when posting a job, Upwork suggests (via a pop-up) that clients not include info that makes it easy to track them down. I realize for some job posts this may not work, but it might go a long way in decreasing being hectored needlessly by unprofessional freelancers. Otherwise, I can't imagine how Upwork could police this, unless the client comes to a forum to ask why/how freelancers tracked down their personal or work emails. Some do, but I'll bet a lot of them don't bother ... they just never come back to Upwork again.

richard_wein
Community Member


Cristian B wrote:

 

Just to make sure I understand this correctly, I cannot contact a client who I started a contract with on Skype, without him inviting me to do so. Is that correct?

Thanks,

Chris

 


I'm sure it's OK for you to suggest Skype and then go ahead if he says yes. I don't think you have to wait for him to invite you first.

 

The wording of the text is not very good. I think sometimes you have to apply common sense and not take it too literally. Naturally, it's more difficult if you're not a native English speaker. I think Upwork could do better with its wording.

Yeah, I had the same feeling, but unsolicited means that one of the parties has to solicit it first. Truth be told, one of the parties can be the freelancer, but I wanted to double check. I've put too much effort in my Upwork business to take a chance, so it's better to ask first 🙂

vipulnandan
Community Member

I received a mail describing an updated ToS coming into effect in April, 2020. One of the 2 points was:

"We are clarifying permissible modes of communication between individuals on our site to reduce unwelcome off-platform solicitation. We want to be clear that professionals and clients cannot make unsolicited contact off of the Upwork platform. While often well-intentioned, any type of outreach that bypasses our communication tools and safeguards without an explicit invitation from the other party can be perceived as unwelcome and a violation of privacy. Going forward, users who are found to be violating the privacy of other users in this way will be removed from using our service further."

 

I want to confirm that for ongoing contracts communications via emails, skype or other means will not amount to a violation of this policy. It does say unsolicited, so it seems that this is to stop FLs approahing clients outside Upwork for contracts. But I am confirming my understanding is correct in this matter. Is there anything else of note in this change?

Regards.

razaadil1
Community Member

Hi,

I got an email from Upwork stating they're updating their terms of service and 'clarifying permissible modes of communication'

Does this mean I cannot talk to my clients outside Upwork? Like Slack for instance?


Raza A wrote:

Does this mean I cannot talk to my clients outside Upwork? Like Slack for instance?

 

It means no such thing!

 

Pay attention to the word "unsolicited"

 

You are allowed to communicate with your clients and prospective clients in any way both of you agree to. Within Upwork, outside Upwork, Skype, email, Facebook, Whatsapp, by phone, in person, smoke signals, carrier pigeons, telepathy. You name it, it's allowed if mutually agreed upon.

You are not allowed to contact clients outside the platform in ways the client did not agree to be contacted in, nor may clients contact you outside the platform in ways you didn't consent to.

 

It's ultimately to stop freelancers hunting job posters down elsewhere and hounding them with "Sir, giwe me jobb in Upworkks" emails or messages etc which sadly happens all too often!

bjweinberg
Community Member

I am happy to use the communication told supplied by Upwork if anything other than messages worked. I have tried numerous times to do the video and phone calling but it ended with a non-experience for both me and the client where we couldn't hear it see each.

With that being said, I wouldn't contact them on other changes without the client's explicit permission either. I just wanted to make sure the technical issues were brought up.
AveryO
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Benjamin, 

Thank you for sharing this with us. I would like to note that I have shared your concern with the team regarding the video/call feature of the Messages room/page so that our engineers can work on resolving this issue. 


As for the communicating outside of Upwork, I wanted to confirm that the new terms outline that if you meet a client or freelancer on Upwork we expect you will keep that relationship on Upwork, including making and receiving payments. You also agree not to spam or attempt to contact another Upwork user via a social media account, email address, etc. without their permission. If we learn a freelancer or client is not following our TOS in most cases we will be forced to permanently close their Upwork account. As such, users are free to communicate outside of Upwork, provided both parties have given permission to be contacted outside of Upwork. 


~ Avery
Upwork

I can confirms that most of the times the Upwork video/audio call doesn't work. I think created a topic a long time ago this.

Hi Cristian,

 

Could you please send me a private message with the screenshot of the error you are receiving from your end so that I can check?

 

Thank you.

~ Aleksandar
Upwork
jraulhernandezr
Community Member

Upwork recently updated some areas of their Terms of Service. 

 

I have a doubt when it comes to the conversations between freelancers and clients through Upwork's proprietary chat feature versus "outside" of Upwork. 

 

I quote:

 

"We are clarifying permissible modes of communication between individuals on our site to reduce unwelcome off-platform solicitation. We want to be clear that professionals and clients cannot make unsolicited contact off of the Upwork platform. While often well-intentioned, any type of outreach that bypasses our communication tools and safeguards without an explicit invitation from the other party can be perceived as unwelcome and a violation of privacy. Going forward, users who are found to be violating the privacy of other users in this way will be removed from using our service further."

- So, I can't have a phone call with my client? 

- I can't connect through Skype/Zoom/you name it with my client? 

 

 

Shred some light... thoughts?


Juan H wrote:

Upwork recently updated some areas of their Terms of Service. 

 

I have a doubt when it comes to the conversations between freelancers and clients through Upwork's proprietary chat feature versus "outside" of Upwork. 

 

I quote:

 

"We are clarifying permissible modes of communication between individuals on our site to reduce unwelcome off-platform solicitation. We want to be clear that professionals and clients cannot make unsolicited contact off of the Upwork platform. While often well-intentioned, any type of outreach that bypasses our communication tools and safeguards without an explicit invitation from the other party can be perceived as unwelcome and a violation of privacy. Going forward, users who are found to be violating the privacy of other users in this way will be removed from using our service further."

- So, I can't have a phone call with my client? 

- I can't connect through Skype/Zoom/you name it with my client? 

 

 

Shred some light... thoughts?


Think that "..."cannot make unsolicited contact..." and  "... without an explicit invitation from the other party..." is important.

Suggests that yes, you can communicate with your client via Skype, mail, yelling from your home, sending him handwritten letters..
You can't do that IF you've stalked a client, if you don't have his permission to contact him.

Might be wrong, though.

yazir80
Community Member

Hello Goran so in case client is asking for skype ID for intereview so its not againts upwork rules so i can give the client my skype id correct. as my client asked me for my skype id for the interview 

re: "in case client is asking for skype ID for intereview so its not againts upwork rules?"

 

No. That is not against Upwork rules.

Clients may ask for a Skype ID.

Freelancers may ask for a Skype ID.

 

You may conduct interviews via Skype.

 

re: "so I can give the client my Skype ID, correct?"

 

Yes.

You may give your Skype ID to anybody you talk to on Upwork.

 

If you have questions, go back and read this thread.

 

This "new policy" is not changing anything for honest people such as yourself. This "new policy" is simply clarifying the fact that Upwork users are not allowed to be pests by "cyber-stalking" other Upwork users, such as by looking up contact information for them and contacting them through un-solicited methods.

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