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pallavi_graphics
Community Member

Inactive Clients - post project and forgets about it

Hi,

 

Many a times it has happened that, I applied to a project with many others but days pass by and there is no activity from the client, so i want to know is it just freelancers who are at loss (in terms of connects) or the clients also pay in some way?
I feel the client post jobs and then forgets about it. 
I suggest Upwork should make some changes and we should get our connects back of the jobs that gets expired due to inactivity from clients.

 

Thanks,

Pallavi

32 REPLIES 32
BojanS
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Pallavi,

 

We understand some clients unfortunately will post jobs, never hire and never close their jobs. We know this is frustrating and we will continue to reach out to clients to encourage them to hire or remove their job. We do, of course, also recommend you closely review the client’s details, such as past hire rate, to help you decide whether to use Connects to submit a proposal for a project. To learn more about what you should be looking for in a job post, please check out this article

 

Thank you!

~ Bojan
Upwork


Bojan S wrote:

Hi Pallavi,

 

We understand some clients unfortunately will post jobs, never hire and never close their jobs. We know this is frustrating and we will continue to reach out to clients to encourage them to hire or remove their job. We do, of course, also recommend you closely review the client’s details, such as past hire rate, to help you decide whether to use Connects to submit a proposal for a project. To learn more about what you should be looking for in a job post, please check out this article

 

Thank you!


Please could you show us an example of the exact messaging you send to clients?

Also how often this messaging is sent and what happens when the client continues posting and then vanishes?

This policy isn't equitable - 50 applications to a job, nobody get's it, client pays nothing, you guys make up to 300 connects ($45) - and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?


and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?

Yes. 

But there is a trial system in place to refund connects for applications where the client hires nobody. As mentioned above, there is also a way that you can mitigate the risk. Such as checking the client's profile and avoiding those with a history of not recruiting. 


Jamie F wrote:

and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?

Yes. 

But there is a trial system in place to refund connects for applications where the client hires nobody. As mentioned above, there is also a way that you can mitigate the risk. Such as checking the client's profile and avoiding those with a history of not recruiting. 


The trial system ended a month ago and the community is awaiting statistics on how that went.

I have several examples of clients with 100% hiring rate and a long history on Upwork also ignoring applications.

I wouldn't waste 6 connects on a client with less than 75% but sometimes you take a risk and it pays off.

My problem is with Upwork taking connects on unresponsive clients (regardless of their history).

Upwork have admitted that this is a new unexpected income stream and I'm sure they're not that keen to do away with it, but at what expense?

Surely irritating the majority of freelancers is not the best way forward?

Clients are not informed that the 50 applicants collectively spent sometimes more than their job is worth as it's not in the interests of Upwork to be transparent about that.

The clients I've explained this to very quickly responded to all applicants and either made the job private to stop the applications coming in, or hired quickly.

My issue is the communication to the clients about how the connects system works.

I don't believe ANYTHING is explained to them either while they're setting up a job, or after, but maybe I can be shown this is not the case?  I'm guessing it will be crickets as usual.

In fact once they've posted a job they get an email asking them to invite more applicants and choosing some who are trending according to algorithms, thereby favoring the many farmers on the platform.

The farmer issue is similar to connects, but again, why would Upwork deal with farmers claiming they do the work themselves (not informing clients they're actually outsourcing) when they can make so much money simply by having more jobs posted and hence more connects utilized?

I've reported several farmers and nothing is ever done about them.

 

All I'm suggesting is some transparency in communication, inform clients exactly how connects work, using the fancy blue radio icons to bring it to their attention while they're posting a job.

 

Mods, please add this as a future upgrade if you care about the community.

I too agree, it should be added or connects should be refunded, when client does not hire or job are closed due to inactivity.


Jamie F wrote:

and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?

Yes. 

But there is a trial system in place to refund connects for applications where the client hires nobody. As mentioned above, there is also a way that you can mitigate the risk. Such as checking the client's profile and avoiding those with a history of not recruiting. 


That trial is over.

It should start again.


Martina P wrote:

Jamie F wrote:

and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?

Yes. 

But there is a trial system in place to refund connects for applications where the client hires nobody. As mentioned above, there is also a way that you can mitigate the risk. Such as checking the client's profile and avoiding those with a history of not recruiting. 


That trial is over.


Ah, I didn't know that - I've not been applying for jobs recently. 

I wonder if they intend to put it into practice. It seemed to me like a reasonable attempt to try and address the problem. Not that I know any of the stats/details. 



Jamie F wrote:

Martina P wrote:

Jamie F wrote:

and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?

Yes. 

But there is a trial system in place to refund connects for applications where the client hires nobody. As mentioned above, there is also a way that you can mitigate the risk. Such as checking the client's profile and avoiding those with a history of not recruiting. 


That trial is over.


Ah, I didn't know that - I've not been applying for jobs recently. 

I wonder if they intend to put it into practice. It seemed to me like a reasonable attempt to try and address the problem. Not that I know any of the stats/details. 



We'll see what the outcome is. No, correction, we wont. 😉


Martina P wrote:

Jamie F wrote:

Martina P wrote:

Jamie F wrote:

and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?

Yes. 

But there is a trial system in place to refund connects for applications where the client hires nobody. As mentioned above, there is also a way that you can mitigate the risk. Such as checking the client's profile and avoiding those with a history of not recruiting. 


That trial is over.


Ah, I didn't know that - I've not been applying for jobs recently. 

I wonder if they intend to put it into practice. It seemed to me like a reasonable attempt to try and address the problem. Not that I know any of the stats/details. 



We'll see what the outcome is. No, correction, we wont. 😉


lol.

That it seemed reasonable (to me anyway), doesn't fill me with confidence that we'll see it again. 



Please could you show us an example of the exact messaging you send to clients?

Also how often this messaging is sent and what happens when the client continues posting and then vanishes?

This policy isn't equitable - 50 applications to a job, nobody get's it, client pays nothing, you guys make up to 300 connects ($45) - and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?


When I post a job I get multiple emails from Upwork every day about new proposals to review and encouraging me to make a hire.  The "client last active"  notification on the bottom of job posts is inaccurate. I have seen it show on my jobs that I haven't been active in days when I have checked proposals and communicated with freelancers every day since I posted. You have no clue what the client may be doing with reviewing proposals or talking to freelancers. 


Amanda L wrote:


Please could you show us an example of the exact messaging you send to clients?

Also how often this messaging is sent and what happens when the client continues posting and then vanishes?

This policy isn't equitable - 50 applications to a job, nobody get's it, client pays nothing, you guys make up to 300 connects ($45) - and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?


When I post a job I get multiple emails from Upwork every day about new proposals to review and encouraging me to make a hire.  The "client last active"  notification on the bottom of job posts is inaccurate. I have seen it show on my jobs that I haven't been active in days when I have checked proposals and communicated with freelancers every day since I posted. You have no clue what the client may be doing with reviewing proposals or talking to freelancers. 


As I suspected, thank you for this insight.

If the "client last active" isn't working what else isn't working?

Today I received a very rare message from a client saying they had hired someone else and thank you for my application.  When checking the job post however, nobody was hired. This isn't a cookie or browser problem either.

Please Upwork look into these issues!


David M wrote:

Amanda L wrote:


Please could you show us an example of the exact messaging you send to clients?

Also how often this messaging is sent and what happens when the client continues posting and then vanishes?

This policy isn't equitable - 50 applications to a job, nobody get's it, client pays nothing, you guys make up to 300 connects ($45) - and that's just tough luck on all the applicants?


When I post a job I get multiple emails from Upwork every day about new proposals to review and encouraging me to make a hire.  The "client last active"  notification on the bottom of job posts is inaccurate. I have seen it show on my jobs that I haven't been active in days when I have checked proposals and communicated with freelancers every day since I posted. You have no clue what the client may be doing with reviewing proposals or talking to freelancers. 


As I suspected, thank you for this insight.

If the "client last active" isn't working what else isn't working?

Today I received a very rare message from a client saying they had hired someone else and thank you for my application.  When checking the job post however, nobody was hired. This isn't a cookie or browser problem either.

Please Upwork look into these issues!


They may have hired someone on a different platform, which would not show on their job post on Upwork. 

kzr2015
Community Member

Why don't you (Upwork) close the job by yourself as you may have the authority?

sjbercot
Community Member

It's a really good practice to factor the price of connects into your business expenses and forget about proposals after you send them. The time spent checking up on clients and worrying about sent proposals is usually better spent improving your skills, portfolio, proposal, etc. If you feel like you're not getting the ROI you're hoping for on connects, the advice is really the same, or maybe move to a free platform, because it's unlikely Upwork will make it *easier* for freelancers to apply to a ton of jobs. It's good for freelancers if everyone has to be a little thoughtful about the jobs they apply to. 

I don't really mind that some clients take days or weeks to hire, or never do. I want more clients not fewer on the platform, and I want it to be easy for them to hire me even if something comes up and it takes them a while to do so.


Sarah B wrote:

... because it's unlikely Upwork will make it *easier* for freelancers to apply to a ton of jobs.


But they already have! It's cheaper to make a lot of proposals now than it was in the days of free connects. Back then you got 30 free proposals a month,  but any additional proposals cost $2 each. Now the marginal cost of a proposal is only $0.30 - $0.90. If you make more than about 40-50 proposals a month (depending on how many connects they cost) it's cheaper now.

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Pallavi,

 

It is my understanding that job postings remain posted even after the client has already hired the freelancer they need, so those clients would have no reason to even review proposals other freelancers are submitting.

 

I see a steady flow of new job postings in my area of specialty, so I have the luxury of ignoring postings that are more than 24 hours old. I do sometimes see postings that are many weeks old when I run a search, but I have never sent a proposal on that sort of posting and have no idea whether any of those postings are ever still valid.

 

Upwork should not just passively request that clients close postings for freelancers that are no longer needed - we all know that many clients are unresponsive unless they need something from someone else. Upwork should require that clients confirm they want more freelancer proposals after Upwork knows a freelancer has been hired for a project. If they don't confirm, the posting should be removed.

Will, this isn't about the age of the posting, it's about the inactivity of the client, two completely separate issues.

I think you'll find most freelancers submit an application for a job within hours of it appearing, if not minutes, but when the client responds to nobody and the job simply expires after a month, no amount of business proposal writing is going to fix that, the problem lies with the client's inactivity and the lack of meaningful repercussions thereto.

The link which a moderator suggested reading for more help features your name right in the middle of the 27 freelancers who could help at $28 to $350 an hour.

I fail to see how this link is applicable.

https://www.upwork.com/hire/business-proposal-writers/

 

No, David, you're wrong.

 

There are many, many job postings that are clearly just abandoned by clients. An earlier posting by an Upwork employee confirmed that Upwork knows this is a problem, so client inactivity IS a big part of the problem.

 

It should have been clear to you that I was saying a job posting that is multiple weeks old has very likely been abandoned by the client and a freelancer who is tempted to apply to it should know they are probably wasting time and connects submitting a proposal to it.

 

I have no idea what this has to do with my name being on some list or why you posted such an irrelevant link that really has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

 

Good luck!


Will L wrote:

No, David, you're wrong.

 

There are many job postings that are clearly just abandoned by clients. Earlier postings by an Upwork employee confirmed that Upwork knows this is a problem, so client inactivity IS part of the problem.

 

It should have been clear to you that I was saying a job posting that is multiple weeks old has very likely been abandoned by the client and a freelancer who is tempted to apply to it should know their are probably wasting time and connects submitting a proposal to it.

 

What this has to do with me being some list has to do with this subject or why you posted such an irrelevant link.

 

Good luck!


If you click on Bojan S' link which he calls "this article", it should take you here:

https://www.upwork.com/blog/2019/05/spot-great-job-post-upwork/

but it actually takes you to a list of the 27 best business proposal writers:

https://www.upwork.com/hire/business-proposal-writers/

 

I didn't make that up, try it out yourself.

 

If Upwork knows this is a problem, created a trial to investigate the problem further, then realized that they would lose a few million Dollars if they kept that trial in place or adopted it permanently, well then it's not really a problem and they can continue to hide behind the fact that they know it's a problem.

 

What about communicating the statistics of how many connects they refunded during the trial and how much money they lost as a result?

 

Do we not deserve that type of transparency instead of just, suck it up, it's part of doing business?

 

The only people I can see this benefitting are the shareholders.

 

I feel that every time I spend another $12 on 80 connects, many which are simply wasted, I'm helping inflate the share price.

 

In fact that would be a cunning plan for any client with shares, post jobs and don't hire anyone, there's no consequences for the client, except maybe a message from Upwork.

 

Seeing as Upwork isn't willing to share the wording of this message, could any of those who are clients and freelancers share what that message looks like, if it does indeed exist?

Also are clients EVER told that every appication to their job costs the candidate between 15 cents and 90 cents unless they invite direct or through a dreaded talent agent?

Hi David,

 

I checked the link Bojan included in his comment and it does redirect me to the correct article - https://www.upwork.com/blog/2019/05/spot-great-job-post-upwork/.

 

I'll copy the message you're looking for and update this post in a bit.

 

~ Vladimir
Upwork

It doesn't send me to the right place. 

Hi David,

 

I understand your concern with using Connects to send proposals to jobs that don't end up hiring. Submitting a proposal has a financial cost, just like the other expenses you incur as a freelancer running your own business. We continue to encourage the client to hire or close the job, but ask that you consider the cost of Connects as part of your business expenses. That said, we do plan to continue testing different Connects options moving forward. We may not be able to share details about a test and its outcome though. There is always the concern that sharing too much will affect a user’s natural response to testing and invalidate their feedback. If any change we test becomes a permanent feature, we'll make sure to announce that. 

 

We also appreciate your feedback about informing clients about connects. We have not proactively reached out to clients to let them know about this change, but this information is in various locations on our site and Upwork Support is available to answer any questions.

 

Finally, I'm sorry you weren't able to access the link Bojan shared and other links in the Hiring Headquarters. We're in the process of updating some of those pages and that's why they may not be redirecting correctly for some users. Meanwhile, Bojan edited his post to remove the link for now.

~ Valeria
Upwork


Valeria K wrote:

Hi David,

 

I understand your concern with using Connects to send proposals to jobs that don't end up hiring. Submitting a proposal has a financial cost, just like the other expenses you incur as a freelancer running your own business. We continue to encourage the client to hire or close the job, but ask that you consider the cost of Connects as part of your business expenses. That said, we do plan to continue testing different Connects options moving forward. We may not be able to share details about a test and its outcome though. There is always the concern that sharing too much will affect a user’s natural response to testing and invalidate their feedback. If any change we test becomes a permanent feature, we'll make sure to announce that. 

 

We also appreciate your feedback about informing clients about connects. We have not proactively reached out to clients to let them know about this change, but this information is in various locations on our site and Upwork Support is available to answer any questions.

 

Finally, I'm sorry you weren't able to access the link Bojan shared and other links in the Hiring Headquarters. We're in the process of updating some of those pages and that's why they may not be redirecting correctly for some users. Meanwhile, Bojan edited his post to remove the link for now.


Thank you Valeria.

 

As for the missing links, please post an announcement for all to see that you're in the process of updating pages, and inform your support staff not to quote these links until the issue is resolved.

 

Can I ask why you have NEVER reached out to clients to explain the connects system?

Saying you don't proactively reach out to them is admitting that you prefer to keep them uninformed.

Is it our duty as freelancers to explain this to the clients on your behalf?

You say the information is available in various locations, I've found one:

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211062898-Use-Connects

 

This is the part I think doesn't make logical sense:

 

Returned Connects

Connects may be returned under the following circumstances:

  • If a project is canceled by the client without making a hire, the Connects used on that proposal will be returned to you for reuse. This does not apply to expired job posts. Why not?
  • If a job post has been removed by Upwork for a Terms of Service violation, the Connects used on that proposal will be returned for you to reuse

Note: Withdrawing your proposal will not return your Connects.

 

 

Why doesn't it apply to expired job posts?

Please give me one valid reason.

Connects were introduced to stop spamming, but if the client ignores his own job posting for 30 days, it is only common decency to return those connects used in vain.

Clients post jobs for free, freelancers pay to bid on them.

Many clients use their job posting simply to get a feel for the current market and then hire off platform or with a competitor.

I know you send reminders to the clients to hire, but how about sending them a polite notice a week before their job post expires and informing them that the 20-50 or sometimes 50+ applicants who took the time to craft an application would like at least to get their connects returned and if they close the job, then that will happen?

You say you continue to encourage the client to hire or close the job, but I'd like to see the messaging where you let them know this.  I've only heard about encouragement to hire, on a daily basis, but specifically the 'close the job' part and the repercussions thereof, could you share that messaging with the community, if it even exists?  I don't believe this is something that needs to be hidden as it's hardly a trade secret or something that is open to abuse, it's simply being open about communication.

If a client has no idea that the failure to respond or close a job has financial repercussions to all those who applied, what is their incentive to care?  If they knew, I feel it would change things significantly.

I'm 100% okay with the financial cost expense argument of the connect system, however there is no logical reason why Upwork should profit from not actually achieving the desired outcome, which is to connect clients with freelancers.  If the client is absent repeatedly you need to do something about it.

If you're simply banking the money AND not doing anything about those non-hiring clients, it leaves a bitter taste.

Please surprise us all by getting management to communicate this openly and honestly.

So again, what messages (exact wording please) are communicated to the client and at what frequency with specific regards to the closing/cancelling of the job post if they do not intend to hire?

Failure to provide this information is as good as admitting that you are not actually communicating this to the client ever.

What would cause a client to even ask you about connects or search the site for what a connect is when they're completely left out of the loop?

Please share this further up the chain as I'm sure the majority of freelancers feel the same way and the sooner a solution is found the better.

 

 

Frankly Upwork should just stop refunding connects for any reason, so people stop getting confused.

 

If you send a letter and the recipient doesn't reply, you don't get your stamp back either.

I'll tell you why: If you get back those connects when the job expired, you won't spending money to buy more connects, which is bad as it's one of Upwork's sources of income.

 

I hate the fact that Upwork seems doesn't take this issue seriously, moreover this problem really affecting a new freelancer like me, spending real money for connects while trying to build my portfolio by competing for low paid projects that mostly have 20-50 applications.


Vladimir G wrote:

Hi David,

 

I checked the link Bojan included in his comment and it does redirect me to the correct article - https://www.upwork.com/blog/2019/05/spot-great-job-post-upwork/.

 

I'll copy the message you're looking for and update this post in a bit.

 


Still waiting for the update...

Perhaps let the team know most of the links on the blog don't work and hence get redirected to hiring pages?

Also if your staff are going to use blog post links as solutions to community posts, it's kind of neccessary that those links actually work for most people.

This isn't the first time I've been given a link that goes somewhere completely different.

Perhaps they can PDF print the relevant info and attach it so all users can benefit.

Try using Google to search for the article titles by name. Place the whole title in quotation marks. If that doesn't work, you can use the Wayback machine to try to find them. 


Tonya P wrote:

Try using Google to search for the article titles by name. Place the whole title in quotation marks. If that doesn't work, you can use the Wayback machine to try to find them. 


Google results attached

 

Clicking on that link does exactly the same thing, takes me to:

https://www.upwork.com/hire/business-proposal-writers/

 

Upwork has moved documents and so when a browser can't find them it redirects to something else.

I've had this problem for months, it's not new, nor do I believe it will be fixed any time soon - they're too busy matching Paypal email addresses and plagiarising job titles...

 

Wayback has 82 snapshots, this is one of them on June 10, 2009:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190610203037/https://www.upwork.com/blog/2019/05/spot-great-job-post-u...

I just found this:

https://www.udemy.com/course/how-to-spot-great-job-post-on-upwork-the-ultimate-guide/#instructor-1

 

It's a guy who has blatantly plagiarised this blog article

https://www.upwork.com/blog/2019/05/spot-great-job-post-upwork/

aka

https://web.archive.org/web/20190610203037/https://www.upwork.com/blog/2019/05/spot-great-job-post-u...

in case the 1st link fails

 

on Upwork and is actually selling it!

 

Maybe you want to tell the author you hired to file a copyright infringement here:

https://copyright.udemy.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?

 

I'm guessing the thief is also a FL on Upwork...

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