Incredibly uncomfortable video "verification"

amt17 · ‎08-09-2019

I did the video verification in February 2019, I submitted a copy of my passport in July 2019 (last month).

Today, my account got restricted with no warning. Next I have to do a video verification using software that doesn't work but apparently shares my computer. I'm therefore told to do the verification on Google hangouts, only I can't see the person I'm talking to - only a black screen with an Upwork logo, and I'm told that the meeting is recorded. Recording my private home and storing it?

Looking at a black screen I have to give personal information to an unknown person who is obviously not at an office as there are sounds from chickens and a rooster in the background.

It is intrusive, it is highly uncomfortable speaking to an unknown person, starring at a black screen and it violates my privacy - but that is what Upwork demands.

m_terrazas · ‎08-09-2019

Annette E wrote:
I did the video verification in February 2019, I submitted a copy of my passport in July 2019 (last month).

Today, my account got restricted with no warning. Next I have to do a video verification using software that doesn't work but apparently shares my computer. I'm therefore told to do the verification on Google hangouts, only I can't see the person I'm talking to - only a black screen with an Upwork logo, and I'm told that the meeting is recorded. Recording my private home and storing it?

Looking at a black screen I have to give personal information to an unknown person who is obviously not at an office as there are sounds from chickens and a rooster in the background.

It is intrusive, it is highly uncomfortable speaking to an unknown person, starring at a black screen and it violates my privacy - but that is what Upwork demands.

I have read it several times and I do not understand.
Why can't we see the person who is going to interview us?
It is something that gives me no confidence. I know that the people who made the verification video say it's easy and fast, but ...

If there are "chickens and a cat", I want to see them, just as they will see me.

abinadab-agbo · ‎08-09-2019

I 100% agree with you.

The "video" verification call is creepy, and some changes need to be done on this matter.

In the so-called video verification call, the other person can see you but you can't see him.

Terrible.

If you can see me why shouldn't I see you?

I was only shown a pic of the other person, not a video, during the call.

amt17 · ‎08-09-2019

Is everybody aware that it is not just a video call, but that they record it and store it? That means Upwork records you, your home and stores the video recording.

Does anybody know whether this is legal?

I asked them to STOP recording and they supposedly did, but I have no way of knowing whether it's true.

hoyle_editing · ‎08-09-2019

Was i aware they were recording? NO

Could i have found out by reading all the info before the verification? PROBABLY - I assume you did?!

Do i care? not really, i am verafied - END OF!

Is it legal? I have no idea, but assuming point 2 is correct, and you accepted the interview then i cant see why it wouldnt be? Is it illegal to record a phone call? dont think so.

ETA - I do actually think they should be on camera to! (in fact i thought they were when i did mine - BUT, it doesnt really matter, they are not the ones being verified)

amt17 · ‎08-09-2019

This is the wording of the email:

==============================================================

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

==============================================================

Unless I'm missing it, it does not mention that the video call will be recorded. I was not told until they had already started recording.

Futhermore, I was told to answer all questions without any hesitation to verify that I'm me.

I was told that we are not allowed to know the identity or see the person doing the video verification and recording us because they have received death threats.

prestonhunter · ‎08-09-2019

re: "Does anybody know whether this is legal?"

Yes, it is legal.

prestonhunter · ‎08-09-2019

re: "Looking at a black screen I have to give personal information to an unknown person who is obviously not at an office as there are sounds from chickens and a rooster in the background."

Are you SURE they were REAL chickens?

If the screen was black, how do you know that wasn't just ambience added to make you feel more at ease?

Personally, I liked the black screen. It made the whole thing more exciting, like riding Space Mountain at Disneyland. I could imagine I was in a spy movie, talking to the mysterious guest star who will be revealed at the end to be played by George Clooney.

petra_r · ‎08-09-2019

Preston wrote:
re: "Does anybody know whether this is legal?"

Yes, it is legal.

Not without permission in most countries. It is not legal in California.

Please do not give legal advice. It far too often goes very wrong.

Preston wrote:
It made the whole thing more exciting, like riding Space Mountain at Disneyland. I could imagine I was in a spy movie, talking to the mysterious guest star who will be revealed at the end to be played by George Clooney.

You really do get a kick out of mocking and ridiculing genuine concerns, don't you.

Jonathan H wrote:
Is it illegal to record a phone call? dont think so.

In most countries, including many states in the US, including California, it is illegal without consent of both parties. Any recording of a conversation requires consent, this includes phonecalls etc.

amt17 · ‎08-09-2019

I found the following in a tabloid article:

"Taking a photo of a person where they can expect privacy (inside their home or garden) is likely to be a breach of privacy laws."

I would assume that the same applies to recording video chat without prior and explicit consent, but that is merely a guess/assumption.

amt17 · ‎08-09-2019

It is outsourced? So I have just given personal information to an unknown individual that Upwork has outsourced it to without being told who that party is and without being told in advance that the video was recorded?

dzadza · ‎08-09-2019

Annette E wrote:
It is outsourced? So I have just given personal information to an unknown individual that Upwork has outsourced it to without being told who that party is and without being told in advance that the video was recorded?

apparently, yes.

I believe several freelancers have asked for more info about the company doing the video verification and got the same canned response starting with "I can assure you..."
So - upwork has our payment methods on file, and chickens have our photo ID on file - doesn't seem secure to me...

Elance also asked for ID to be verified, but they provided all details about the company - integrity-Aristotle. I was able to see the other person, in his office, with employee ID badge. He introduced himself and asked if I wanted to see his ID. We spoke over Skype (they were verified) - the whole thing lasted around 3-4 minutes, and I can't say that it was an unpleasant experience.

amt17 · ‎08-09-2019

The first video verification I did 5 months ago was nothing like this. It was surprising (and came a bad time where I had deadlines) but it wasn't unpleasant, the timing and lack of head's up was just inconvenient and frustrating.

The video verification today was unpleasant, demanding, highly intrusive and I will not perform another one like this again.

Learning that I don't even know what company performed it (if it was a company) is unacceptable.

prestonhunter · ‎08-09-2019

Is it outsourced?

Yes.

If it makes you feel any better, whenever a client hires you on Upwork, they are outsourcing work to you.

When you call your local police department, hospital, or therapist, you are likely to be dealing with outsourced labor.

When I call my doctor's office, sometimes I talk to a person who is there physically and lives a few miles from me. Sometimes I talk to a person working from their home in the Philippines.

Your medical records, legal records, government records, credit card information, and other information are handled by outsourced labor.

That outsourced labor may include me. I am a back-end database specialist. You might be surprised at the type of data I am given access to, all without any kind of additional security or background check other than my Upwork reputation. The outsourced labor may include other Upwork freelancers. It may include people you know from your own neighborhood, and it may include people from places you have never heard of.

hoyle_editing · ‎08-09-2019

Jonathan H wrote:
Is it illegal to record a phone call? dont think so.

In most countries, including many states in the US, including California, it is illegal without consent of both parties. Any recording of a conversation requires consent, this includes phonecalls etc.

Yes, and my point is that i would imagine (i do NOT know for certain) that the same rules would apply to video calls!

The OP clearly knew they were being recorded as they state they requested Upwork to STOP recording - (which the OP says Upwork confirmed) .

Not sure what the issue is - you clearly already knew OR were informed that the call was recorded to which you asked them to stop recording, which they did?

amt17 · ‎08-09-2019

Jonathan H wrote:

The OP clearly knew they were being recorded as they state they requested Upwork to STOP recording - (which the OP says Upwork confirmed) .

The OP was told after the recording had begun. Not in advance, not prior to recording, not asking for my consent to record. And they declined to let me use my phone so I could step outside or into another room.

petra_r · ‎08-09-2019

Abinadab A wrote:
It's also immaterial whether Upwork did it, or whether Upwork hired a third party to do it for them.

It isn't, because such a third party company will, or rather may, not be subject to California law. (By not being in California or indeed the USA, for example.)

abinadab-agbo · ‎08-09-2019

Petra R wrote:
Abinadab A wrote:
It's also immaterial whether Upwork did it, or whether Upwork hired a third party to do it for them.
It isn't, because such a third party company will, or rather may, not be subject to California law. (By not being in California or indeed the USA, for example.)

Again, can you please refrain from giving legal advice on a matter you know next to nothing about?

You have now edited "will be subject" to "may not be subject". [Que in another round of hurried edits due to more faux pas, as with your other comments on this thread].

There is absolutely no need for you to pontificate (as usual) on a matter you barely understand even a fraction of.

petra_r · ‎08-09-2019

Abinadab A wrote:
(as usual) on a matter you barely understand even a fraction of.

lol, if you say so...

colettelewis · ‎08-09-2019

Abinadab A wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Abinadab A wrote:
It's also immaterial whether Upwork did it, or whether Upwork hired a third party to do it for them.
It isn't, because such a third party company will, or rather may, not be subject to California law. (By not being in California or indeed the USA, for example.)
Again, can you please refrain from giving legal advice on a matter you know next to nothing about?
You have now edited "will be subject" to "may not be subject". [Que in another round of hurried edits due to more faux pas, as with your other comments on this thread].

There is absolutely no need for you to pontificate (as usual) on a matter you barely understand even a fraction of.
______________________________
Abinadab, would you please back up and read (carefully) Petra's response to Preston.

You are having knee-jerk reactions to things that are in your own mind only.

dzadza · ‎08-09-2019

I just have a question (to go back to topic)... Am I to understand that anyone (and their chickens) can be entrusted with handling government IDs (passports, drivers license, etc.)? So, basically, I could send my passport scan and have recorded conversation with someone who doesn't have a secured connection, stores my passport and recording of our conversation on external HD that they may forget at Starbucks?

colettelewis · ‎08-09-2019

Sanja D wrote:
I just have a question (to go back to topic)... Am I to understand that anyone (and their chickens) can be entrusted with handling government IDs (passports, drivers license, etc.)? So, basically, I could send my passport scan and have recorded conversation with someone who doesn't have a secured connection, stores my passport and recording of our conversation on external HD that they may forget at Starbucks?

______________________________

Yes. I gave my passport details to a complete unknown and objected to it some million posts ago. Anyway, I now have the little blue tick that appears to be so important to Upwork. However, should I ever close my account, I would demand that my details be rescinded. This of course, would be impossible to verify.

dzadza · ‎08-09-2019

that's just fantastic! thanks for clarifying the process - I believe I'm not going to go through with this...

abinadab-agbo · ‎08-09-2019

Annette E wrote:

I did the video verification in February 2019, I submitted a copy of my passport in July 2019 (last month).

Today, my account got restricted with no warning. Next I have to do a video verification using software that doesn't work but apparently shares my computer. I'm therefore told to do the verification on Google hangouts, only I can't see the person I'm talking to - only a black screen with an Upwork logo, and I'm told that the meeting is recorded. Recording my private home and storing it?

Looking at a black screen I have to give personal information to an unknown person who is obviously not at an office as there are sounds from chickens and a rooster in the background.

It is intrusive, it is highly uncomfortable speaking to an unknown person, starring at a black screen and it violates my privacy - but that is what Upwork demands.

The guy who video verified me appeared scary, at the outset. It was only his picture that I saw, not a video of him. **Edited for Community Guidelines** It was the ponytail that ruined it. I thought, "oh well, this guy's gonna stone me through my screen and permaban me lol". He never did. He just had this CIA/secret agent aura around him.

Yes, he was generally polite in the course of doing the verification, but I think they should find more friendly-looking staff for this.

If that's the same person who verified Annette (a woman), I can understand where this comment is coming from.

My apologies to him; I didn't mean to take his job from him.

But, Upwork needs to find more friendly staff for this job so no other FL will post a comment like Annette's here again.

And of course, provide more info on what will happen during the call and how the info will be processed, beyond the general privacy info in Upwork's TOS.

I read somewhere (on a job posting by Upwork looking for people for that role) that those verification guys usually have to pass very high levels of security clearance checks. I don't know if people who manage to pass such levels of checks invariably have a tendency to look rather scary like that guy with the ponytail.

hoyle_editing · ‎08-09-2019

Not sure how the persons race size or hairstyle has any implication when (as by your own admission) its just a picture!

If you had to meet someone down a poorly lit alley to verify identity then id understand that a large character may come over slightly daunting, but c'mon.

colettelewis · ‎08-09-2019

Jonathan H wrote:
Not sure how the persons race size or hairstyle has any implication when (as by your own admission) its just a picture!

If you had to meet someone down a poorly lit alley to verify identity then id understand that a large character may come over slightly daunting, but c

_______________________

Are you replying to someone specific?

hoyle_editing · ‎08-10-2019

Nichola L wrote:

Are you replying to someone specific?

Well, yes i was replying to "Abinadab A" though i now see that the portion of the post i was replying to has been edited out - hence making my post not make much sense!

emmamclaren · ‎08-10-2019

Oh hell no - if we cannot see the person doing the verification check there is no way in hell I am even handing over my ID with redacted details let alone doing a video call. And to say that we need to answer without hesitation - so if my toddler is running around and I hesitate to see what he is doing, it will what, be marked that I hesitated on an answer and my ID isn't me? The person doing the ID call should be showing their face live on video and producing a copy of their photo ID complete with their name and the company they work for. I bet if freelancers said they were going to record the ID verification they wouldn't get a positive response.

Upwork expects us to hand over all this private data (which again, has enough to commit identity fraud), and be happy our data is being kept on file in some random location that could easily be hacked, yet we can't see the person doing the ID check - something is seriously wrong here!

kochubei_valeria · ‎08-09-2019

Hi Annette,

I'm sorry your experience verifying your identity was an uncomfortable one but I appreciate you sharing it with us. We have already forwarded your observations to the team and will work to improve the process.

All,

I'd also like to confirm that access to the information you provide during identity verification is handled by Upwork agents who have passed strict background checks and our secure, third-party vendor’s automated checks. We do not share or sell any of the information you submit to us. After 30 days, the information you submit to verify your identity is deleted.

We have FAQ sections in help articles about the video verification and the government ID verification portions of the process to address some of the concerns that freelancers may have.

Finally, note that a few posts have been removed from this thread as they were in violation of the Community Guidelines.

~ Valeria

reinierb · ‎08-09-2019

Valeria K wrote:
Hi Annette,

I'm sorry your experience verifying your identity was an uncomfortable one but I appreciate you sharing it with us. We have already forwarded your observations to the team and will work to improve the process.

All,
I'd also like to confirm that access to the information you provide during identity verification is handled by Upwork agents who have passed strict background checks and our secure, third-party vendor’s automated checks. We do not share or sell any of the information you submit to us. After 30 days, the information you submit to verify your identity is deleted.
We have FAQ sections in help articles about the video verification and the government ID verification portions of the process to address some of the concerns that freelancers may have.

Finally, note that a few posts have been removed from this thread as they were in violation of the Community Guidelines.

Valeria,
Given the fact that Google Hangouts is the platform of choice for scammers of all desriptions, can a freelancer insist that the Upwork agent doing the verification at least verify the fact that he/she was indeed appointed by Upwork?

Or is there a clause/provision somewhere in the verification process that says something like "The appointment of our agent need not be proven". Just asking, since the OP said she heard chickens in the background.

VladimirG · ‎08-10-2019

Reinier B wrote:

Valeria,

Given the fact that Google Hangouts is the platform of choice for scammers of all desriptions, can a freelancer insist that the Upwork agent doing the verification at least verify the fact that he/she was indeed appointed by Upwork?

Or is there a clause/provision somewhere in the verification process that says something like "The appointment of our agent need not be proven". Just asking, since the OP said she heard chickens in the background.

Hi Reinier,

To clarify, our agents schedule a call in Google Meet in case a user has an issue with using the provided video verification link. The conversation is facilitated within the support ticket, which is only accessible by our dedicated team managing verification from Upwork's end and the user.

~ Vladimir

petra_r · ‎08-10-2019

Vladimir G wrote:
The conversation is facilitated within the support ticket, which is only accessible by our dedicated team managing verification from Upwork's end and the user.

... and their chickens and roosters, by the sound of it.

So what about the recording of calls without prior consent? Which is illegal in both Upwork's and the OP's location?

lenaellis · ‎08-12-2019

Yes, we do inform users. Even though we do not record every call, when participating in a call the agent is required to let the customer know their call may be recorded. And because of the feedback shared, we have requested the team make it more apparent by adding this information in the chat as well. I don't have timing on when this will be added but it's in the works.

-Lena

amt17 · ‎08-12-2019

Lena E wrote:
Yes, we do inform users. Even though we do not record every call, when participating in a call the agent is required to let the customer know their call may be recorded. And because of the feedback shared, we have requested the team make it more apparent by adding this information in the chat as well. I don't have timing on when this will be added but it's in the works.

-Lena

I was not informed until the video chat was already taking place and it was already being recorded.

The anonymous person conducting the video verification said he would turn it "off", so evidently it was already recording before I was told that the video chat was being recorded. Likewise, I was not asked for my consent to the recording.