🐈
» Forums » Freelancers » Re: Interviewing Outside of Upwork
Page options
jorgensons
Community Member

Interviewing Outside of Upwork

In the last few weeks, I've seen a huge uptick in the number of clients asking me to communicate outside of Upwork prior to hire, despite this practice being banned in the TOS. Today alone I've had two -- one who wanted to talk via phone and another who wanted me to contact the person in charge of the specific project I was interviewing about. Both jobs and clients seemed 100% legit; they just prefer to communicate outside of Upwork. (Can't blame them. It's so much easier, and who wants to learn a brand new platform when existing communication methods work just fine? Not me...)

I reviewed the TOS to make sure things hadn't changed without me noticing. Nope. We're still not allowed to communicate outside of Upwork prior to hire, except with Business and Enterprise clients. (Who are the vast minority, at least for the type of jobs I do.) My question is...

(1) Any chance Upwork will revisit this policy? Clients have told me I'm being passed over because other freelancers are willing to communicate via Zoom/phone/email. In other words, I'm being punished for following the rules. I know I'm not the only one.  

(2) Any chance Upwork can do more to make clients aware of the policy and incentivize them to follow it?

(3) If the policy isn't going anywhere, could Upwork consider adding Upwork Plus clients to the exceptions list? Or clients who have shown they're trustworthy with a 4-star rating or higher as long as they've completed a certain number of jobs? (Maybe 5 or 10?)

I'm following the rules and don't have any intention of doing otherwise -- I'm just getting frustrated by how often I'm being asked to go against the TOS (especially in the last week or two), and I'm getting frustrated by knowing that others are breaking the rules in order to get a job. I'm curious to know what Upwork is doing about this situation...

ACCEPTED SOLUTION


Robert G wrote:

Phyllis G wrote:

l feel like we should keep bumping this thread to keep it on page 1 until UW offers a meaningful response.


What would you expect a UW participant to say on this forum other than a "We appreciate you thoughts and will look into the issue" type statement?


Because sometimes an UW manager joins a rational, respectful conversation like this and at the very least, acknowledges the issue(s) being raised. If we ensure this doesn't devolve into an UW-bashing session, there's reason to think it might happen here.

 

View solution in original post

43 REPLIES 43
AndreaG
Moderator
Moderator

Hi Signe, 

 

Thank you for taking the time to share your feedback and suggestions with us. I will pass this along to the appropriate team for review.

 

~Andrea
Upwork


Andrea G wrote:

Hi Signe, 

 

Thank you for taking the time to share your feedback and suggestions with us. I will pass this along to the appropriate team for review.

 


Andrea, respectfully, Signe is not making suggestions. She's asking questions, the answers to which are of compelling interest to hundreds if not thousands of us. I constantly have to steer prospective clients away from communicating off the platform. Most of the time they're unaware of the rule and most comply without a fuss but occasionally, there's pushback. And it always introduces unnecessary friction. I don't need these extra opportunities to hone my sales and diplomatic skills.

 

As I understand it, this policy is meant to discourage people taking work off the platform and/or help newcomers avoid scams. Instead, it just created another way for cheaters to cheat and the honest and conscientious among us to pay the price. And we know from the forum that newcomers who don't bother to read any of the other rules don't read this one, either.

 

Thanks for passing it along, Andrea, but it doesn't really address my key point: What is Upwork doing to reward those of us who  follow the rules, incentivize clients to follow the rules, and penalize the rulebreakers?

grimesr
Community Member

I just want to be sure I understand -

 

Here is a situation 

 

I submit proposal for a very complex technical project.

I get message from client say, WOW, you might be exactly who we want. Are there any questions?

I say some of the tecnical details are a little fuzzy, client could you clarify before I commit?

Client says sure, just need a NDA signed and I will share some of the internal workings.

I say, great. I sign the NDA.

Client says I want to tell you the magic secret of our company that is in the project.

I tell him fine, but I tell client that the message system is not secure and could be read by others.

Client says - That won't work, I will just give you a call.

I say, can't do that or I get thrown off Upwork for violating TOS.

Client says - Then I can't discuss this since there is now way to talk.

Client says thanks anyway - goodby

I lost potential project.

 

Am I missing something or is the scenario I just gave what the rules state? If so, then something needs to change.

kinector
Community Member

Yeah Robert, I get that too. 🤣

The only thing I could think of to manage this is that I ask about the communication channel before signing the NDA, just to save some effort. 😉
grimesr
Community Member

As soon as client knows I have no way to talk to them, then they will drop dicussions with me. Then I loose that million dollar contract we are all waiting for.

geri_kol
Community Member


Robert G wrote:

I just want to be sure I understand -

 

Here is a situation 

 

I submit proposal for a very complex technical project.

I get message from client say, WOW, you might be exactly who we want. Are there any questions?

I say some of the tecnical details are a little fuzzy, client could you clarify before I commit?

Client says sure, just need a NDA signed and I will share some of the internal workings.

I say, great. I sign the NDA.

Client says I want to tell you the magic secret of our company that is in the project.

I tell him fine, but I tell client that the message system is not secure and could be read by others.

Client says - That won't work, I will just give you a call.

I say, can't do that or I get thrown off Upwork for violating TOS.

Client says - Then I can't discuss this since there is now way to talk.

Client says thanks anyway - goodby

I lost potential project.

 

Am I missing something or is the scenario I just gave what the rules state? If so, then something needs to change.



That's right Robert. Problem as I see it is that Upwork has introduced all these obstacles that purposely create friction in initial client-freelancer interactions to disincentivize cheating on the lower end. But it has not provided a reciprocal mechanism to enable a frictionless experience for the pros that are actually ready to "talk business" but don't like having their every word watched and recorded as if they are some kind of recidivists. It comes down to poor experience design for the "high end" freelancers. 

grimesr
Community Member


Gergana K wrote:

Robert G wrote:

I just want to be sure I understand -

 

Here is a situation 

 

I submit proposal for a very complex technical project.

I get message from client say, WOW, you might be exactly who we want. Are there any questions?

I say some of the tecnical details are a little fuzzy, client could you clarify before I commit?

Client says sure, just need a NDA signed and I will share some of the internal workings.

I say, great. I sign the NDA.

Client says I want to tell you the magic secret of our company that is in the project.

I tell him fine, but I tell client that the message system is not secure and could be read by others.

Client says - That won't work, I will just give you a call.

I say, can't do that or I get thrown off Upwork for violating TOS.

Client says - Then I can't discuss this since there is now way to talk.

Client says thanks anyway - goodby

I lost potential project.

 

Am I missing something or is the scenario I just gave what the rules state? If so, then something needs to change.



That's right Robert. Problem as I see it is that Upwork has introduced all these obstacles that purposely create friction in initial client-freelancer interactions to disincentivize cheating on the lower end. But it has not provided a reciprocal number of tools to enable a frictionless experience for the pros that are actually ready to "talk business" but don't like having their every word watched and recorded as if they are some kind of recidivists. It comes down to poor experience design for the "high end" freelancers. 


I am sure this has been cussed and discussed ad nauseum, but I just to don't see how this rule has any impact on cheating or scams. I have purposely allowed the client to contact me so it isn't an unsolicited contact. If client and I want to agree for me to get paid outside Upwork, it is trivial to get that point across in the message stream so it will happen just as much if the rule wasn't in place.

 

Maybe we all would feel better if there were some concrete reasons given that logically show the rule helps prevent outside payment. I just don't see it.

 

geri_kol
Community Member



I am sure this has been cussed and discussed ad nauseum, but I just to don't see how this rule has any impact on cheating or scams. I have purposely allowed the client to contact me so it isn't an unsolicited contact. If client and I want to agree for me to get paid outside Upwork, it is trivial to get that point across in the message stream so it will happen just as much if the rule wasn't in place.

 

Maybe we all would feel better if there were some concrete reasons given that logically show the rule helps prevent outside payment. I just don't see it.

 


I would be surprised if anyone is gathering such data that proves a negative or at least shows a positive evolution, since there is no baseline to compare against. The "prevent cheating" goal is obviously the desired effect but the mechanism is too crude, so regardless of whether or not is achieves that effect, the rule has a draining effect on the high end. (I sound like a public policy impact evaluation specialist, which I´m not.) 


Gergana K wrote:

Robert G wrote:

I just want to be sure I understand -

 

Here is a situation 

 

I submit proposal for a very complex technical project.

I get message from client say, WOW, you might be exactly who we want. Are there any questions?

I say some of the tecnical details are a little fuzzy, client could you clarify before I commit?

Client says sure, just need a NDA signed and I will share some of the internal workings.

I say, great. I sign the NDA.

Client says I want to tell you the magic secret of our company that is in the project.

I tell him fine, but I tell client that the message system is not secure and could be read by others.

Client says - That won't work, I will just give you a call.

I say, can't do that or I get thrown off Upwork for violating TOS.

Client says - Then I can't discuss this since there is now way to talk.

Client says thanks anyway - goodby

I lost potential project.

 

Am I missing something or is the scenario I just gave what the rules state? If so, then something needs to change.



That's right Robert. Problem as I see it is that Upwork has introduced all these obstacles that purposely create friction in initial client-freelancer interactions to disincentivize cheating on the lower end. But it has not provided a reciprocal mechanism to enable a frictionless experience for the pros that are actually ready to "talk business" but don't like having their every word watched and recorded as if they are some kind of recidivists. It comes down to poor experience design for the "high end" freelancers. 


For the prospects I deal with, it's not even a matter of privacy. It's usually a matter of scheduling facility and/or needing to loop in a senior executive who has no time or patience to depart from whatever meeting platform their organization uses. Please stop wrong-footing us by making us make some of our best prospects comply with this petty inconvenience!

 

 

This is EXACTLY the issue. People don't have time to waste by learning a new platform that feels redundant because it does the same thing as their familiar technologies/methods (just not as well). They want to work with the freelancers who won't waste their time, either, by demanding that they learn this new and redundant communication method. They perceive "let's stick to the platform because the rules say so" as as a stodgy, unnecessary stumbling block...which it is. 

Everyone's made some good comments about this policy. How about some meaningful answers and/or comments from the Upwork staff?

petra_r
Community Member


Robert G wrote:

I tell him fine, but I tell client that the message system is not secure and could be read by others.

Client says - That won't work, I will just give you a call.

I say, can't do that or I get thrown off Upwork for violating TOS.

Client says - Then I can't discuss this since there is now way to talk.


You can talk over an Upwork call or an Upwork Zoom call. 

 

Gergana K wrote: .... the pros that are actually ready to "talk business" but don't like having their every word watched and recorded as if they are some kind of recidivists.

Calls are not recorded or watched.

 

negrusti
Community Member

Same issue for me as for Signe - totally legit customers with high amount spent on Upwork are asking for an interview outside Upwork. It's my understanding that they have their own corporate channels for the interviews allowing multiple people to participate, and simply can't use Upwork for this.

Hi Gregory,

 

You can let your client know that sharing contact information before a contract has started is against Upwork’s Terms of Service and that all communications prior to the contract starting must take place on Upwork.

 

Thank you.

~ Aleksandar
Upwork

Hi Aleksandar - that's what I do - and as mentioned earlier, sometimes this leads to the loss of the contract.

petra_r
Community Member

Ultimately, it means that freelancers who are happy to break the rules will have much higher chances of winning those contracts. 

 

In practice, that's the effect. Now Upwork's rules are directly benefiting people who are happy to break rules, it means those freelancers will be happy to break other rules as well, potentially including taking the client off the site.

 

The rule directly leads to Upwork clients ending up working with less scrupulous freelancers.

 

I am sure that this is not what Upwork intended, but in practice that is the effect. Freelancers who would take clients off site before the communications rule changed are still doing so. Those who always stuck to the rules, lose out on jobs.


Aleksandar D wrote:

Hi Gregory,

 

You can let your client know that sharing contact information before a contract has started is against Upwork’s Terms of Service and that all communications prior to the contract starting must take place on Upwork.

 

Thank you.


Alexandar, have you taken a moment to actually read through this thread before providing a boilerplate response? Obviously the questions raised call for some internal reflection among Upwork's product managers and experience design architects, as they concern the ability of some of the platform's most successful freelancers to close high-value contracts - which ultimately also impacts the bottom line of this enterprise. 

I echo what others have said.

I've not had anybody directly say they are not pursuing things because I don't want to communicate off-platform - but I have had some go silent. I find it otherwise quite rare that a client will go silent all of a sudden after saying they want to discuss things further. 

And it's frustrating to know that those who are following the rules are probably losing out to those who are not. 

Hi, Are we supposed to report clients who ask for interviews outside of Upwork or do we simply just tell them Upwork's policy? 


Aleksandar D wrote:

Hi Gregory,

 

You can let your client know that sharing contact information before a contract has started is against Upwork’s Terms of Service and that all communications prior to the contract starting must take place on Upwork.

 

Thank you.


This is not a solution. It's part of the problem. 

Can't Upwork's algorithms look into people who hire/get hired without first having communicated on the platform? 

I get that the odd occasion won't necessarily mean anything (some do hire straight away), but if there's a pattern of it happening, then... 


Jamie F wrote:

Can't Upwork's algorithms look into people who hire/get hired without first having communicated on the platform? 

I get that the odd occasion won't necessarily mean anything (some do hire straight away), but if there's a pattern of it happening, then... 


Adding to Jamie's suggestion, perhaps Upwork needs to constitute an external user advisory panel, as it seems challenged to come up with advanced non-linear solutions to problems that affect both the user experience and the bottom line (of both FLs and Upwork). 

gilbert-phyllis
Community Member

l feel like we should keep bumping this thread to keep it on page 1 until UW offers a meaningful response.


Phyllis G wrote:

l feel like we should keep bumping this thread to keep it on page 1 until UW offers a meaningful response.


What would you expect a UW participant to say on this forum other than a "We appreciate you thoughts and will look into the issue" type statement?


Robert G wrote:

Phyllis G wrote:

l feel like we should keep bumping this thread to keep it on page 1 until UW offers a meaningful response.


What would you expect a UW participant to say on this forum other than a "We appreciate you thoughts and will look into the issue" type statement?


Because sometimes an UW manager joins a rational, respectful conversation like this and at the very least, acknowledges the issue(s) being raised. If we ensure this doesn't devolve into an UW-bashing session, there's reason to think it might happen here.

 

grimesr
Community Member

Signe, I don't mean to sidetrack your origninal issue of rule breaking, but I would suggest more empahsis should be placed on the rule itself.

 

Without any facts to back me up or any real investigation, I would assert that the rule has little to do with taking the contract outside Upwork, which I assume is the purpose of the rule from Upwork's point of view.

 

First, there is a mention of scams. That will happen with or without the rule. That is just up to the freelancer to make a judgement call. I believe that it will happen just as often in or out of the message flow.

 

Second, I do not believe that there is a direct relationship between taking the conversation outside has an impact on the number of contracts taken outside Upwork. The upside of not having this rule is that more clients might even be contracted than less since it makes the client-freelancer interaction easier to work.

 

Third, those who are going to go outside with the contract are probably already doing it and still following the rule. The AI of looking at messaging is probably not sophiscated enough to find those who are clear enough to go outside and still follow the current rule.

 

Fourth, the rule as it is is almost impossible to find violators. If you can't really enforce a rule, what is the point?

 

Fifth, it takes two to tango. If the rule was changed, just because you are allowed to talk outside as a freelancer, you still have the option to tell the client, "No, I won't work with you outside Upwork". We as freelancers have a responsibilty to do the right thing.

geri_kol
Community Member

Come to think of it, it is very likely the rule exists so that Upwork can charge money to people who want to take their client-freelancer relationship outside the platform and are honest and forthcoming enough to say so.  It's a source of revenue for the platform and that's fair enough, but it obviates all the lost opportunities for alternative revenue streams due to clients walking away *because of* the rule. I guess Upwork could try to run a simulation and do a benefit-cost analysis at some point. 

petra_r
Community Member


Gergana K wrote:

Come to think of it, it is very likely the rule exists so that Upwork can charge money to people who want to take their client-freelancer relationship outside the platform and are honest and forthcoming enough to say so.  It's a source of revenue for the platform and that's fair enought


That makes no sense. When people are honest and forthcoming enough to say so the conversion fee gets paid with or without the rules which only apply before a contract is established. The conversion fee is paid very rarely, so it's not a signficant revenue stream, and what little (if any) revenue it creates is unaffected by the rule.

 

No client would ever pay the conversion fee for a freelancer they've never worked with and if they have ever worked with the freelancer, the rule doesn't apply to them anymore anyway.

 

geri_kol
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Gergana K wrote:

Come to think of it, it is very likely the rule exists so that Upwork can charge money to people who want to take their client-freelancer relationship outside the platform and are honest and forthcoming enough to say so.  It's a source of revenue for the platform and that's fair enought


That makes no sense. When people are honest and forthcoming enough to say so the conversion fee gets paid with or without the rules which only apply before a contract is established. The conversion fee is paid very rarely, so it's not a signficant revenue stream, and what little (if any) revenue it creates is unaffected by the rule.

 

No client would ever pay the conversion fee for a freelancer they've never worked with and if they have ever worked with the freelancer, the rule doesn't apply to them anymore anyway.

 


**Edited for Community Guidelines** but my hypothesis was regarding what may have gone into Upwork's initial decision to have that rule in the first place - I'm not saying whether it makes sense or not, whether paying the fee is profitable or not, etc. **Edited for Community Guidelines**

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Thanks for the discussion, everybody, as well as for sharing your observations and examples of interactions you have had with clients on Upwork. I'd like to address some of the questions and concerns shared in the original post and this thread overall.

 

Yes, it is still required by Upwork TOS to conduct all pre-contract conversations through Upwork platform. It's against the TOS to share contact information before the contract is started. I'm not aware of any plans to change or add any exceptions to Upwork’s contact information sharing policy. Violating TOS can result in warnings, holds, and/or account suspension.

 

That said, there are a few areas discussed on this thread that our Trust & Safety and Product teams continue working on and improving:

 

  • Work is being done around improving existing tools and introducing new ones to make communication between talent, clients, and their teams more smooth and easy on Upwork.
  • Our mechanisms around detecting and actioning TOS violations are constantly evolving. Many of you have posted some great thoughts and suggestions for how these mechanisms and processes can be improved and our moderators have been passing them on to the team. Unfortunately, we can't discuss our detection processes in detail publicly in order to protect their integrity.
  •  Finally, we will continue improving and expanding our efforts around educating Upwork users about TOS in general and contact sharing policy in particular via articles and resources, email and in-product notifications, customer support and community, etc. 

Our goal is to decrease the risk of fraud, scam, and other harmful behaviors and ensure Upwork is a safe environment where our users are protected by our programs. Once again, we do appreciate feedback, suggestions and experiences shared here.

~ Valeria
Upwork

Interestingly there is no separate topic to report a client who is requesting to communicate outside Upwork:

grimesr
Community Member


Gregory M wrote:

Interestingly there is no separate topic to report a client who is requesting to communicate outside Upwork:


Something Else????

negrusti
Community Member

"something else" is what I use. But it just shows that Upwork does not consider that issue common or important in my opinion.

petra_r
Community Member


Gregory M wrote:

"something else" is what I use. But it just shows that Upwork does not consider that issue common or important in my opinion.


You can report the message itself. Much more effective. No point flagging the job post if the request to communicate outside the platform is in messages. If there is contact info on the job post and a request to contact that way, use "job post contains contact info.

 

I would only report a client for this if attempts to gently educate them have failed.

negrusti
Community Member

@Petra thanks, totally missed "Report message" option. My bad!

There's no upside to reporting a client for that. It's in UW's best interest -- and ours -- to educate the client about the rule and persuade them to use UW messaging until a contract is in place.

 


Phyllis G wrote:

There's no upside to reporting a client for that. It's in UW's best interest -- and ours -- to educate the client about the rule and persuade them to use UW messaging until a contract is in place.

 


Yes and No.

 

You might be assuming that telling the client it is a No-No means they won't do it with another freelancer. A few may understand and follow the rules, others will just look for another freelancer and do it anyway.

re: "Are we supposed to report clients who ask for interviews outside of Upwork or do we simply just tell them Upwork's policy?"

 

I don't expect that every client automatically knows all the rules.

 

So my standard advice is this:

Give the client the opportunity to do the right thing.

If they do the right thing, then there is no need to report them.

if they don't do the right thing, then report them.

Latest Articles
Featured Topics
Learning Paths