Issues with Client, Need Advice

[sumit988]

Hello! Community Guru

Actually, I got a project for image editing and at that time client just told me can you able to receive the raw file and I replied yeah, sure.
After that I received the file and edited all the 600 images and delver in jpeg. format that was initially in .CR2 format.

After my submission client liked the work but he was also not agree to the format, he want the edited images in .CR2 format, but unfortunately it's not possible to edit a image and save to .CR2 format.
He's saying that I'll aprove the milestone only when you delever the edited images in .CR2.
I need some advice, Please guide me to solve this issue.

Best Regards,

Sumit

[petra_r]

Didn't you agree the output file format with the client before accepting the contract? That's a little bit like a translator not confirming which language they shall be translating into...

As far as I know, it is not possible to edit raw files and save them in .CR2 so basically if it can't be done the client can't have what they think they want.

Maybe refer the client to evidence that what they think they want isn't possible?

[sumit988]

Thanks for your kind response,

No, we didn't talk about the final format. The main problem is he seldomly reply of my message. 

Also didn't get about you message " That's a little bit like a translator not confirming which language they shall be translating into..."

Best Regards,

Sumit

[prestonhunter]

Sumit:

It does not matter if:

a) nobody can do this 

[or]
b) you can't do this

Your actions are the same:

You don't accept a job doing this.

If you already accepted a job to do this, you tell the client you are sorry for the inconvenience and you close the contract.

[sumit988]

Preston I didn't accept the job for delevering the project in .CR2, he just asked for are you able to recive .CR2 format. but now after 3 days of submitting the milestone, he back with this.
so, if I close the contract, will i not get paid for the project?

[petra_r]

Sumit S wrote:

Thanks for your kind response,

No, we didn't talk about the final format.

---

You should have. It is a vital part of the contract. You failed to specify the deliverables.

so, if I close the contract, will i not get paid for the project?

---

No, you won't get paid. Preston is encouraging you to have worked for free and to gift the client the work you did. 

Again. If you failed to specify the deliverables (which you did)  you need to communicate with the client.

The output file format is a vital part of the contract. If you didn't determine that, you won't be able to prove that you delivered what was agreed,

[atreglia]

---

Sumit S wrote:

Hello! Community Guru

Actually, I got a project for image editing and at that time client just told me can you able to receive the raw file and I replied yeah, sure.
After that I received the file and edited all the 600 images and delver in jpeg. format that was initially in .CR2 format.

After my submission client liked the work but he was also not agree to the format, he want the edited images in .CR2 format, but unfortunately it's not possible to edit a image and save to .CR2 format.
He's saying that I'll aprove the milestone only when you delever the edited images in .CR2.
I need some advice, Please guide me to solve this issue.

Best Regards,

Sumit

---

This is kind of cracking me up.  The client already got what he needed so why not pick a format there's no option for?  That's like going to Burger King and not paying for your Whopper because it wasn't a Big Mac.

[sumit988]

I'm ready to provide him  other format that is possible. I can provide him raw file with TIFF/DNG but he only want .CR2. which is not possible.

[petra_r]

---

Sumit S wrote:

I'm ready to provide him  other format that is possible. I can provide him raw file with TIFF/DNG but he only want .CR2. which is not possible.

---

You need to make the client understand that.

In future, always nail down the scope and the details such as the output file format.

[atreglia]

---

Sumit S wrote:

I'm ready to provide him  other format that is possible. I can provide him raw file with TIFF/DNG but he only want .CR2. which is not possible.

---

You're going to have to explain to this client that a camera raw image is the digital negative of a digital photo; and just like you cannot modify a film negative, you cannot modify a digital negative and save changes on it.  Frankly, I think the client knows this and is purposely asking for something that doesnt exist as a way of not paying for it -- especially since you already delivered the jpegs.  I mean, you don't go to a store with film negatives, ask for changes, and demand the changes be made on the negative or you don't pay for it.  That's just crazy.

[prestonhunter]

I don't know if the client is daft or doing this on purpose. If he is doing this to get free work, that is WRONG... but also kind of clever. I assume that the original poster has learned from his mistake and will never again make the same mistake in the future.

[atreglia]

---

Preston H wrote:

I don't know if the client is daft or doing this on purpose. If he is doing this to get free work, that is WRONG... but also kind of clever. I assume that the original poster has learned from his mistake and will never again make the same mistake in the future.

---

What mistake do you think the OP made?  I've modified plenty of camera raw images and never once advised the client they're not getting them back in the same format.   How would you feel if a client asked you to modify a program that was clearly written for Windows OS then in the end wouldn't pay you because it isn't compatable with Mac?  Pretty clever, yes.

[prestonhunter]

re: "What mistake do you think the OP made?"

The original poster is here asking for help.

This contract is completely jammed up.

Obviously he made a mistake.

He took on a job to convert files, and he didn't nail down what the job actually was.

It was your theory that this client was doing this on purpose. I think you might be right. But I'm not convinced. As I said, I'm also open to the possibility that the client is simply daft. I don't really know.

The freelancer isn't required to "get to the bottom of this" and figure out what is truly in the client's head. The important thing for the freelancer is to never again mess up so badly in drafting the project description.

When I accept a fixed-price contract, there is no question about what the task will be and what the deliverable will be. I do the task and submit it, and that's it. There's no discussion about it. There's no ambiguity about what the final file format will be.

And if the client is going to be difficult and ask for a bunch of other stuff or ask for revisions... I can just cut him off and end things. If I accept a fixed-price contract with a total stranger, I make sure it's not a large amount of work. No more than an hour or two of work. A client who wants to hire me using fixed-price contracts must first demonstrate that they can be trusted. If a client turns out to be somebody who CAN'T be trusted... ultimately it doesn't matter to me if it is because they are malicious or dishonest or just plain crazy. I don't spend tme with people like that.

[petra_r]

---

Preston H wrote:

He took on a job to convert files.

---

No, he didn't. He was hired to edit pictures, not to convert files. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "He was hired to edit pictures, not to convert files."

Good point.

The original poster messed up.

He said he received and edited 600 files, but the client is giving him a hard time and not paying him.

If it had been me, I would have edited 5 files, and submitted them for payment.

And the client would have released payment without fuss and then been given the opportunity to hire me to do more. (Maybe even 595 more all in one shot if the task isn't too time-consuming.) But if the client asked me to convert them to a format I can't convert them to, then I would have said no, and that would be the end of it.

[sumit988]

Thankyou so much to you community guru for giving me your precious time but I still need your guidance about this project.

Just 5 min. ago client ended the contract and asking for refund, he just paid me 50 USD and asking for 150 USD refund.
He's doing this knowingly, because he has a website for wedding photography.

He is still not responding to any of my messages. What should I do now.
I approve returning the remaining funds in escrow to the client.

OR

I do not approve this request and want to file a dispute.

Please look into this matter.

Best Regards
Sumit

[petra_r · Accepted solution]

Decide whether you want to dispute or whether you want to return the escrow funds.

Nobody can take that decision from you. I would dispute. $150 is a lot of money to just throw away when the work was done perfectly

[sumit988]

Thanks again for your response, Petra

Will it affect my JSS?

[petra_r]

---

Sumit S wrote:

Thanks again for your response, Petra

Will it affect my JSS?

---

Will what affect JSS? The client's feedback has already done that (for better or for worse). Disputing won't make a difference.

[sumit988]

Thanks for your guidance
I got atleast 125 USD.

Best regards
Sumit

[atreglia]

---

Preston H wrote:

He took on a job to convert files, and he didn't nail down what the job actually was.

Incorrect.  The OP agreed to edit the files, not convert them -- entirely different.

[prestonhunter]

At this point, the original poster should have submitted the work using the official "Submit Work for Payment" button, and he should be using this information if the client isn't releasing payment:

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068528-Dispute-Non-Release-of-a-Milestone-Payment

Here's the thing:
I believe EVERY fixed-price contract can go wrong, no matter what the original agreement is.

My philisophy is that the freelancer is in charge of the contract, no matter what happens.

So I don't actually care about what the project is for. For me, all fixed-price clients are handled the same:
I don't know you.

Start with something small.

If you demonstrate you can be trusted, we can move on to progressively larger agreements.

I'm sorry that it has to be that way, but Upwork's system doesn't TRULY provide any real protection so that is how I build in protection myself.

Sometimes I have fixed-price task descriptions that just say something like "Do next task." or "Do Task 5."

Because that's a client I trust.

With a new client? Everything needs to be spelled out. And it can still go wrong. And I don't have the patience to adjudicate the matter, so I am just going to bail on the client. The worst thing that I can possibly do to a client is to deprive him of my services. So if a client hires me and then messes up by asking for a bunch of other stuff that wasn't in the original agreement, or by asking for impossible stuff, then yeah... They really messed up because then I'm gone.

I have to say that the original poster in this thread (the freelancer) messed up, because THAT is where the power is. If the problem is caused by someone else - if it is Upwork's fault or the client's fault or the Apple's fault or whatever - then it means the freelancer doesn't have the power. If it is the freelancer who messed up, then it means he can make different choices in the future. It means he can do things differently and obtain better results for himself in the future.

Can a client ALSO be at fault? Of course. A client can be wrong. Or ignorant. Or confused. Or malicious. But if I'm the freelancer, I don't have any control over what the client does or who the client is as a person. If I'm the freelancer, I can only control what I do.