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jurelampe
Community Member

It is not about connects price but about time invested - some internal statistic

Just a comment, not a question. I've read some (a lot of) complaints here about HUGE price of connects and similar. But the real cost here is not the price of the connect - it is time cost spent to prepare the best job offer. We are in niche IT industry where before posting an offer often we need to answer to ourselves: "Is it possible to do it?" In this case I mostly spend an hour or so just to check all constraints before.
Here is some statistic (not exact numbers, just to get an impression), but we've analysed some numbers:
- 6 months, 500 offers, at least 250 hours invested into offers, 2% success rate, approx. 10 jobs approved.
The devil is in details. What about jobs we didn't get? Who got them? NOBODY! The full hire rate was 3%, or so, therefore we can claim: "If client hires a freelancer and we applied, there is 66% or more chance to get a job!" Well, it is great for our ego, how great we are, blah, blah, but that's not true. The price for applying is huge.
So, please do not complain about the connects price, complain to UpWork that they need to find a way how rise the approved jobs ratio and remove unserious clients from the platform.
Just my two cents…
Thank you for your time

8 REPLIES 8
rolludesig
Community Member

thats true and upwork seriously need to look into this..

florydev
Community Member

If you are doing something and it doesn’t work you should ask yourself what part of the problem can I fix?
If connects are not a problem for you (and I applaud that you see this) then what is? If it were me I would say you take too long to propose. You should instead throw down a much simpler proposal and then wait for engagement. Save your energy for serious clients who actually engage.

I am not sure what Upwork can do to identify serious clients that won’t potentially cause serious clients to leave. I am guessing one thing the new connect system is trying to solve is clients getting blasted by tons of unqualified people (because they could), being unimpressed by it and leaving.

Mark, thank you, but it is not about our success rate or how much time we've spent for the proposal. It is our responsibility, our choice and if we find out that it doesn’t worth it, we will find something else. Simple. I am not complaining about that.
It is about:
1. The connect price is not an issue if we compare the price we need to pay and time invested (offer preparation, communication). Even if one invests only 10 minutes for preparing the offer and its hour worth only 6$, the time cost is another 1$. So, I personally do not care if connect is 0.01, 0.1 or 1$. The issue is not the connect price.
2. The problem is that we have statistic for 500 jobs applied and only 15 (again, not exact numbers) were led to the contract. AGAIN, not 15 for us, 15 for ALL. That is 3%. And every of that 500 clients got approx. 25-50 offers. So, client has a problem, is keen to get a solution, gets 20+ offers, and there is not even one good enough to communicate with a freelancer??? No interviews, nothing. Window shopping. But it is good for UpWork marketing to claim that more than 100k jobs is opened.
There are huge number of clients from one specific country. It seems that they are freelance agencies (not real clients), already have (or apply for) a job and they just wish to get info about prices, new ideas, answers to questions from other freelancers. You do not need an expert for offer preparation because you can get all info for free.
I can simply tell you how one can cut the time needed for our job offer preparation:
1. Find a promising opportunity here on UpWork.
2. Copy / paste a text of it and publish it as a client with some additional questions, to get as much as answers and prices.
3. Collect the info and paste it into your offer.
4. Mix UpWork, Freelancer, PeoplePerHour, etc. Collect info from one platform and paste it to another.

Is that the case? Maybe. I do not know.


This situation is not good for freelancers, serious clients (because they finally pay higher prices) and on long-term for UpWork.


Even, more precise statistic and reports from UpWork, would greatly help.

Hi Jure. Like you, I'm concerned with the wasted time spent on writing proposals, not the cost of connects. (I think you would have to be earning a very low hourly rate to find the cost of connects more significant than the time, but there are in fact freelancers with such low rates.)

 

Nevertheless, I find your 3% figure (97% of jobs have no-one hired) astonishing. Most freelancers who complain here about clients not hiring anyone give a figure of about 50% of jobs where no-one is hired. And that's roughly my own experience too. That suggests to me that you're not being selective enough in choosing which jobs to bid on. Yes, it would be great if Upwork could do more to prevent fake job posts.But I wouldn't rely on that happening.

 

I also sympathize with the problem of having to take time to understand the job and check that it's feasible before you write a proposal. It affects me too. There are some people who post in this forum who seem to think that all professions are like their own, and that the quick proposals that work for them should work for everyone. On the other hand, perhaps Mark has a good idea. You could fire off a quick proposal, wait to see if you get any response, and only then take time to understand the job. If you then find that the job's not feasible, you don't pursue it any further. Still, I haven't yet tried this strategy myself. I find that there are only a limited number of jobs that appeal to me, and I don't want to waste an opportunity by sending off a half-baked proposal.

Thank you. I fully agree with you. Except that I am very selective in choosing which jobs to bid on, especially after analysing things. The issue is not my success rate - it is the overall success rate for niche jobs where the real expert is needed. IoT, wearables, sensors, proof-of-concepts are jobs where one need to invest a lot before claiming or promising something which maybe cannot be done.

As written, for me it is not problem our success rate, I’ve got the Top Rated badge in the very first week possible. It is just amusing for me all that complaining about connect price but no one see the real problem, like in “Emperor new clothes” fairy tale. And agreed, everyone has its own problems and every job is different.

You know about statistic - let' s discuss about methodology first. And different methodologies lead to different numbers. But one can only put numbers which can grab and are available on UpWork, so - how I calculated everything? You can argue that methodology is wrong - there were only numbers I had.

1. Our "Marketing effectiveness" in stat was really bad (around 25%) when compared with others in category "freelancers in Web, Mobile & Software Dev". Therefore, we've decided to analyse it, because it was clear that it should be improved.

2. The first thought was that we didn't get a job because someone else got it (lower cost, better proposal, better team, you name it..)

3. So we've decided to learn from the best, the winners, like what was their price (you can get it when the job is finished, who did it, reviews).

4. That is possible only to monitor all proposals posted, check if someone is hired, when the job was finished end similar, manually. We have manually copied every proposal into our CRM and analyse it every week.

5. We have found out that in our niche market there are lot of jobs offers, but few jobs hired.

 Yes, one can argue:

1. That it cannot be done correctly because it takes time for jobs to be approved and cannot be claimed that nobody is hired yet if job is only a week or two old. Agree, but 6 months and 500 proposals can show some trends. And even if we multiply the numbers with 2 from 3% to 6% because of, it is still very low number.

2. That is waste of time to monitor the progress in that way, but we have learned a lot 🙂

3. That the overall success rate is 30% or even 50% (success rate in a meaning that client accepted an offer regardless who is applicant). Maybe in category IT development in general, but not if you are an expert in niche market; IoT, sensors, wearables, special solutions in eHealth, Industry, Logistic.

I can agree that someone can be easily hired to prepare a mobile application with 5 screens, login and connected to fb. I can bid in 3 minutes or less. The client knows what is buying and the freelancer can just simply copy the last version of its template. And for that kind of jobs the connect price can be an issue.

But for highly specialized jobs, hardly.

tlbp
Community Member


Jure L wrote:

Just a comment, not a question. I've read some (a lot of) complaints here about HUGE price of connects and similar. But the real cost here is not the price of the connect - it is time cost spent to prepare the best job offer. We are in niche IT industry where before posting an offer often we need to answer to ourselves: "Is it possible to do it?" In this case I mostly spend an hour or so just to check all constraints before.
Here is some statistic (not exact numbers, just to get an impression), but we've analysed some numbers:
- 6 months, 500 offers, at least 250 hours invested into offers, 2% success rate, approx. 10 jobs approved.
The devil is in details. What about jobs we didn't get? Who got them? NOBODY! The full hire rate was 3%, or so, therefore we can claim: "If client hires a freelancer and we applied, there is 66% or more chance to get a job!" Well, it is great for our ego, how great we are, blah, blah, but that's not true. The price for applying is huge.
So, please do not complain about the connects price, complain to UpWork that they need to find a way how rise the approved jobs ratio and remove unserious clients from the platform.
Just my two cents…
Thank you for your time


How much time do you spend preparing each proposal for a lead found outside of Upwork and what is your conversion rate for those leads? 

jurelampe
Community Member

Hi Tonya. It depends. If we know that it can be done, it is fast. For example if someone ask for video conferencing solution, using audio, video, file sharing, using WebRTC integration into something with mobile app..., not more than 5 minutes. And probably more than 90% of proposals here on UpWork go into that box. But still the connects are 0.9$ and still the time invested for it is at least another 1$, but probably a few of them. That is a reason I am so amused that everyone complains about connects and value their time for proposal preparation 0$/hour. For me it is like driving 50 Miles to get the bottle of milk because it is 10cents cheaper than in local store :-).

 

But if someone ask to prepare a proof-of-concept of wearable with battery life more of 12h and a lot of constraints and nobody did it yet I need to do some research. Otherwise it is wast of time for client and waste of my reputation. It is similar situation like you are not expecting from your MD to answer you about important procedure in 10s.

jurelampe
Community Member

Hi Tonya. It seems that I didn't reply fully to your question. The preparation times outside of UpWork are similar, success rate is MUCH higher. But it is because we are known in our market and in case of prototypes and POC it is all about TRUST. The clients trust us because I am sometimes very blunt saying: “This cannot be done”. And after that: “But I suggest doing it in that way.” Here on UpWork is harder, they have established some mechanisms, like badges, but it takes time and we are here only for the last 6 months – greenhorns 😊

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