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Job success score is UNFAIR and should be changed.

Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
31 of 73

@brian F wrote:

There must be something wrong with me for thinking a transparent rating system would be better...


It's not wrong or right, but a transparent system would be easy to game. I would love a transparent JSS, but then I guess everybody would have near 100% JSS. 

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
Community Guru
Scott B Member Since: Nov 20, 2015
32 of 73

@Rene K wrote:

@brian F wrote:

There must be something wrong with me for thinking a transparent rating system would be better...


It's not wrong or right, but a transparent system would be easy to game. I would love a transparent JSS, but then I guess everybody would have near 100% JSS. 


To play devil's advocate, when we say "easy to game", what exactly are we thinking we could do that would boost our score but for nefarious and not legitimate reasons? I think there are only so many things that can go into this score such as public/private reviews, account holds, disputes, complaints, etc. If we know these things and we take steps to improve the one's we can and eliminate the rest, that cannot be considered bad for anyone. Of course we shouldn't need JSS to tell us these obvious things but the bulk of JSS has to be these obvious things, correct? I struggle to come up with something that if I knew it meant something, I can use to my advantage but to the disadvantage of the site, others freelancers or clients. 

 

My opinion is that the bulk of lower JSS scores comes from private feedback. Freelancers see great public scores or comments and cannot believe they don't have a perfect JSS. The client decides either because they are afraid of reprisal, conflict, etc., to be nice publicly but once the freelancer is "out of the room", they indicate what they really feel. Kinda like a lot of people in real life. The result is great outward stats but a low score that seems "unfair". It may be unfair but that is more on the client in deciding to tell two tales. The other reason that catches people off-guard for a lower JSS are scores that roll off after a period of time. Some good contracts move off the books and perhaps some less good contracts (i.e. bad public or private feedback) now carries greater weight. Again not obvious and people react. 

 

I don't think we are missing some super secret algo here. Sure there are pieces we don't know (or cannot prove) but the bulk of it I think is obvious. For those I say yes, please game the system. Game it by providing better service to clients or flat out avoiding those clients who aren't good for this platform to begin with.

Community Guru
Brian F Member Since: Jun 4, 2013
33 of 73

I appreciate the thougtful response Scott.  Part of the problem, at least for a writer as I am, is that Upwork does not provide many quality writing gigs/assignments.  There are A LOT of iffy requests/contracts/clients, but if  did not take a lot of these, I'd have almost no business.

 

So yeah, Ideally I'd avoid these difficult people/clients.  But the lack of options and lac of quality writing gigs makes this impossible.  Every time you guys say "Why don't you as a freelancer do X, Y, or Z," maybe consider that you're speaking more in ideal terms and not in the reality of the Upwork marketplace.

Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
34 of 73

@brian F wrote:

So yeah, Ideally I'd avoid these difficult people/clients.  But the lack of options and lac of quality writing gigs makes this impossible.  Every time you guys say "Why don't you as a freelancer do X, Y, or Z," maybe consider that you're speaking more in ideal terms and not in the reality of the Upwork marketplace.


 If it was impossible,  nobody could do it. The fact that so many writers in your market sector ($ 60 an hour upwards) do  manage to do it, the vast majority of whom with a 90% + JSS, would indicate that it's not "impossible."

 

When people say "Why don't you as a freelancer try X, Y, or Z" and you don't even try, you will never know whether it would have worked if you had given it a shot.

 

I still think your profile (both overview and picture) is your biggest stumbling block, not your JSS, which sucks right now but I've seen people bounce back to 100% from lower than that (although that latest poor feedback won't help and likely drive your JSS down even lower.)

 

Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
35 of 73

I just went to Brian's profile and spotted this: Ignore JSS, which is misleading and can include non-ratings/open contracts. 

 

Which essentially translates into: If you haven't noticed my JSS, or if you don't judge a profile only from a JSS perspective, please think again and look carefully at it and see how **bleep**ty it is. But you must understand, it's not my fault, it's somebody else's fault!

 

Other than making vent holes, I don't understand why people feel a need to shoot themselves in the foot.

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
Ace Contributor
Melissa R Member Since: Nov 11, 2018
36 of 73
Have you noticed that the Job Success Score sticks out like a sore thumb on freelancer’s profiles???? It’s diagonal with our profile pictures.

Why not feature our highest feedback/job history somewhere by our faces?

Is there anyone here in the forum who has influence and can pass our concerns along to the powers that be? Instead of being arrogant and belittling us and basically saying “this is the absolute law of the land” and even though we’ve had bugs in the JSS system just a month ago, (that was indeed malicious to freelancers) there’s no problem with it now and “too bad, so sad”.




Community Guru
Tonya P Member Since: Nov 26, 2015
37 of 73

 

I still think your profile (both overview and picture) is your biggest stumbling block, not your JSS, which sucks right now but I've seen people bounce back to 100% from lower than that (although that latest poor feedback won't help and likely drive your JSS down even lower.)

 


 Oh dear. That is unfortunate. I would try to come up with a very brief, very professionally worded statement explaining why the client may have decided to torpedo me on the review for that one. It appears that they weren't unhappy for quite some time since they kept paying. 

 

Sometimes getting a no review contract is better than the alternative.  Closing the contract before the client can and without asking for feedback is a somewhat grey-hat strategy to avoid these types of reviews. 

Community Guru
Tonya P Member Since: Nov 26, 2015
38 of 73

@brian F wrote:

I appreciate the thougtful response Scott.  Part of the problem, at least for a writer as I am, is that Upwork does not provide many quality writing gigs/assignments.  There are A LOT of iffy requests/contracts/clients, but if  did not take a lot of these, I'd have almost no business.

 

So yeah, Ideally I'd avoid these difficult people/clients.  But the lack of options and lac of quality writing gigs makes this impossible.  Every time you guys say "Why don't you as a freelancer do X, Y, or Z," maybe consider that you're speaking more in ideal terms and not in the reality of the Upwork marketplace.


 

 Freelancers who choose to work with subpar clients can't expect Upwork to adjust the rating system to reflect that fact. Freelancers are business owners, Upwork is a lead generation tool some of those business owners choose to use. You can't blame the tools you choose for the success or failure of your business. Nor is it reasonable to compare market conditions from 5 years ago to today's competitive environment--unless you are comparing them to demonstrate that the field of freelancing has become significantly more competitive. There are hundreds of thousands of new entrants into the market--both clients and freelancers. 

 

If we are going to rely on anecdotal evidence, however, then I can add my anecdote. Upwork has provided me with access to a sufficient number of high-quality clients that I am kept very busy and have to turn work away.

 

I would recommend that any freelancer who is struggling to find good client matches evaluate their business processes. From product to prospecting. 

Active Member
Danny K Member Since: Oct 7, 2018
39 of 73

Tonya P, I as well as many others have no problems finding quality clients, that is not the issue at hand.
The problem is the way the JSS is setup to count job success %, the title in itself even don't make any sense, I've completed 100% of all of my jobs but my "JOB success" was at around 84%, the title in itself is already an innacurate representation of what the JSS actually stands for, then you have all the other issues that mentioned earlier. when a client sees less than 100% job sucess, client already is suspicious, but he or she has no cllue that the JSS has nothing to do really whether a freelancer completed the projects or not, but other factors which some are completely out of the freelancer's control, such as this secretive feedback which most clients are not even aware how much it hurts the JSS.

So the problem is not that there's a difficulty finding good leads, but rather upwork as a tool, has a malfunction, if I use a hammer, I don't want the hammer to stab me in my hand every time I want to use it, that would be detrimental to it's purpose, but that's how the current way JSS is working, it's stabbing good freelancers in the hand who are trying to use it.

Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
40 of 73

@Danny K wrote:


The problem is the way the JSS is setup to count job success %, the title in itself even don't make any sense, I've completed 100% of all of my jobs but my "JOB success" was at around 84%


 So how about a contract open for months but nothing ever paid?

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