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Job success score is UNFAIR and should be changed.

Community Guru
Tonya P Member Since: Nov 26, 2015
51 of 73

@Danny K wrote:

Rene K
I would encourage you to go to my profile and see how many "unhappy" reviews I have.
there is inconsistency between the star reviews and the secretive reviews, if a client gives me 5 stars on a project but gives me a different review in secret so I can improve, the client is not necessery unhappy with my performance but rather feels there are areas I can improve upon, which is acceptable, in fact I encourage every client to give a constructive feedback to how a freelancer can improve but NOT if the freelancer gets hurt in the process by having their JSS lowered which hurts their reputation and income possibilities.


 JSS is an assessment tool for clients, not a self-improvement tool for freelancers. Upwork doesn't want to promote freelancers who are hoping to improve. Upwork wants to provide clients with recommendations for freelancers who are already performing well. 

 

Freelancers who genuinely wish to improve should make a habit of seeking feedback from their clients throughout the performance of the contract and at its conclusion. And by feedback, I am referring to direct communication with the client asking if they are satisfied and what the freelancer could have done better--not asking the client to leave a rating. 

 

 

Community Guru
Melanie H Member Since: Nov 2, 2017
52 of 73

@Tonya P wrote:

@Danny K wrote:

Rene K
I would encourage you to go to my profile and see how many "unhappy" reviews I have.
there is inconsistency between the star reviews and the secretive reviews, if a client gives me 5 stars on a project but gives me a different review in secret so I can improve, the client is not necessery unhappy with my performance but rather feels there are areas I can improve upon, which is acceptable, in fact I encourage every client to give a constructive feedback to how a freelancer can improve but NOT if the freelancer gets hurt in the process by having their JSS lowered which hurts their reputation and income possibilities.


 JSS is an assessment tool for clients, not a self-improvement tool for freelancers. Upwork doesn't want to promote freelancers who are hoping to improve. Upwork wants to provide clients with recommendations for freelancers who are already performing well. 

 

 

 

 


Although it may seem rough, I agree with this. I try to look at it from the client's perspective. Would I want to hire someone for the purpose of receiving less than satisfying work for my money and then being a teacher for that person so s/he can deliver better work to someone else next time? (Sorry for the run-on sentence.) Oh heck no. 

 

Clients want as few headaches as possible and I don't blame them. I try to deliver just that: great work, no headaches. But I also vet my clients in advance so that *I* don't have as many headaches either. Smiley Wink

 

This place can be a sounding board for improvement. The place for improvement isn't on a client's time and dime. Harsh but true, and actually, it makes total sense. 

Community Guru
Brian F Member Since: Jun 4, 2013
53 of 73

I dunno, maybe we have a system that incorporates BOTH freelancer AND client perspectives?  I've seen a hell of a lot of complaints about client behavior and haven't seen any evidence that the ratings system was adjusted to make clients more accountable, only adjustments not in the favor or freelancers to thin the herd and address clients' concerns.  Like, why are they afraid to leave bad reviews?  This strikes me as absurd that a client would rate a freelancer's work 5/5 then have MAJOR complaints in private.  It seems like if a client leaves 5/5 but has a few minor quibbles in private that Upwork treats that as "uncessessful."  This really does not makse sense.


If a client is happy leave positive review.  If not, leave a negative review.  In public.  Why is this somehow uncomplicated or unsatisfactory?  If a client leaves a bad review, then offers to issue a partial refund to make up for it, isn't that a normal part of customer service in all kinds of fields?  If their is a problem, it gets states and attempts at making amends are made?  Many times I've gone to s store angry with something defective and left happy because I got a refund or something else in return.  We don't need to reinvent the wheel here...

Community Guru
Scott B Member Since: Nov 20, 2015
54 of 73

@brian F wrote:

I dunno, maybe we have a system that incorporates BOTH freelancer AND client perspectives?  I've seen a hell of a lot of complaints about client behavior and haven't seen any evidence that the ratings system was adjusted to make clients more accountable, only adjustments not in the favor or freelancers to thin the herd and address clients' concerns.  Like, why are they afraid to leave bad reviews?  This strikes me as absurd that a client would rate a freelancer's work 5/5 then have MAJOR complaints in private.  It seems like if a client leaves 5/5 but has a few minor quibbles in private that Upwork treats that as "uncessessful."  This really does not makse sense.

 

There are of course client ratings that come from freelancer reviews. However, the nature of buyer/seller means that client reviews mean a heck of a lot less. It will never be a level playing field in that respect.

 

The crux of the issue I believe is private feedback. Indeed why write a positive 5-star message publicly and then kill the freelancer privately. I do believe that is a problem. I believe UW is trying to get as uncoerced a view as possible. This is why there is the double-blind review process as well. People can be afraid of confrontation or even reprisal based on whatever their job was.  Maybe they need to rely on the freelancer to some extent for a while post project and don't want to muddy those waters. Maybe the client thinks they are being nice to the freelancer and then telling a more realistic (from their view) perspective in private not realizing the impact it will have. I would agree that a significant imbalance between public and private feedback should be in some way flagged. There can be degrees through. Perhaps the client was okay with the freelancer and the job was done satisfactorily. However, for one reason or the other, the client wouldn't really recommend this person. They weren't bad but perhaps not good enough to put their own name behind by way of a recommendation. One could easily see that sort of situation which is not an outlandish difference between public and private. Yet, I would assume indicating you wouldn't recommend someone might be taken a bit stronger into the JSS score. So like I said, it isn't so cut and dry.  

Community Guru
Brian F Member Since: Jun 4, 2013
55 of 73

Scott- The public reviews are already double blind.  Life shouldn't be perfect for the client either.  Maybe they will be depending on the freelancer in the future so instead of giving a crappy review they can talk to the freelancer, be open, honest, and communicative about how the improve and the freelancer can actually make those improvements.  If they are nervous about leaving a bad review were nervous about getting one!  Doesn't that cancel out to a degree?  Why should the client's reservations about leaving reviews on a public rating system (which you admit affects we freelancers far more to begin with and is inherently unequal) be given such a substantial corrective as private feedback but our reservations are given nothing?  If anything, it'son the client to explain issues and allow the freelancer to correct them.  We can't read minds and many clients are terrible at communication.  We should have a lower score because can't read minds?  I honestly think this concept of a client being afraid to leave an honest review is more hypothetical than real.  People who are willing, beyond minor quibbles, to leave a vastly different review in public than in private are just not honest people and.  Again, if they are going to have an extended relationship with us. common decency dictates that they just tell us what's wrong and allow us to fix it.  This is not rocket science, and how many freelancers would honestly not fix issues they were presented with by a client?  If they did not fix them, I could see that as earning a bad review.  But you are right, the discrepancy between public and private reviews IS a thing and IS telling a problematic clients when it isn't minor.  In my experience, a clients can often just be lazy, they expect you to read their minds and then it isn't exactly what they ask for--even when you asked for more detailed instructions and they declined to give you any (this happened to me recently with a client who left not public feedback)-they come at you with attitude and negativity.

Where are the protections from clients like this?  the blind feedback offers none, but the system is supposed to protect clients who are nervous about leaving public feedback.  Come on.  If they are happy, the rating should reflect that even if there is room for improvement, and they can always send us messages to give us more details feedback and discuss details.  This is ridiculous, the idea that the client NEEDS private feedback to say what they really think...

Community Guru
Brian F Member Since: Jun 4, 2013
56 of 73

This place can also and should also be a sounding board for Upwork's chances to improve.  But wow dot he Upwork people resist and that possibility!

Community Guru
Scott B Member Since: Nov 20, 2015
57 of 73

@brian F wrote:

This place can also and should also be a sounding board for Upwork's chances to improve.  But wow dot he Upwork people resist and that possibility!


You need to stop this already, Brian. There are a million threads as mentioned with people airing their grievances around JSS as I and others have told you countless times. The forum members here cannot fix this issue but we can help people - who are willing to listen - to start focusing in on things they can control and give them hope that even under this system, they can be successful. You are completely obsessed with JSS to the point that it appears to be dominating your thoughts around Upwork. If anyone tries to give you other thoughts and avenues to focus on, you immediately assume they are the enemy and against you and your ideas. Your concerns have been stated numerous times. Hundreds or thousands have stated concerns over the years just like you. So you can now either choose to adjust and overcome or you can continue to use valuable time and energy flogging the same message. Of course you can choose to take your business elsewhere. It's really up to you. 

 

So here is my parting advice which you can certainly ignore but others may choose to learn from. Do a better job communicating with your clients. Accept that maybe just maybe some of this is on you and do more with your clients to create an atmosphere where the private review yields something closer or matching to the public. This will not always work even with your best efforts, but frankly it should work enough of the time that your JSS isn't ruining your life (again I will point to many people with long histories that maintain a 100% or close rating.) Life isn't fair. Not all clients are fair. Do what is within your power and you can achieve success like so many others have. You have a lot of open jobs. Kick butt with them and your JSS woes will be a thing of the past. Or, spend time here complaining to folks with zero power to change the system. The choice is yours.

Community Guru
Nichola L Member Since: Mar 13, 2015
58 of 73

@Scott B + 1000

Community Guru
Melanie H Member Since: Nov 2, 2017
59 of 73

@Scott B wrote:

@brian F wrote:

This place can also and should also be a sounding board for Upwork's chances to improve.  But wow dot he Upwork people resist and that possibility!


You need to stop this already, Brian. There are a million threads as mentioned with people airing their grievances around JSS as I and others have told you countless times. The forum members here cannot fix this issue but we can help people - who are willing to listen - to start focusing in on things they can control and give them hope that even under this system, they can be successful. You are completely obsessed with JSS to the point that it appears to be dominating your thoughts around Upwork. If anyone tries to give you other thoughts and avenues to focus on, you immediately assume they are the enemy and against you and your ideas. Your concerns have been stated numerous times. Hundreds or thousands have stated concerns over the years just like you. So you can now either choose to adjust and overcome or you can continue to use valuable time and energy flogging the same message. Of course you can choose to take your business elsewhere. It's really up to you. 

 

So here is my parting advice which you can certainly ignore but others may choose to learn from. Do a better job communicating with your clients. Accept that maybe just maybe some of this is on you and do more with your clients to create an atmosphere where the private review yields something closer or matching to the public. This will not always work even with your best efforts, but frankly it should work enough of the time that your JSS isn't ruining your life (again I will point to many people with long histories that maintain a 100% or close rating.) Life isn't fair. Not all clients are fair. Do what is within your power and you can achieve success like so many others have. You have a lot of open jobs. Kick butt with them and your JSS woes will be a thing of the past. Or, spend time here complaining to folks with zero power to change the system. The choice is yours.


Wise words. Here's to a great 2019! 

Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
60 of 73

Scott: +1000

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
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