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ilannamandel
Community Member

Last client using profile to continue false accusations

Hello All;

 

As many of you know there was a dispute between me and my last client here. We went into dispute resolution and nothing was proven as I did nothing wrong. But he's so angry he didn't get his money back he's used his feedback comments to accuse me again. I've notified Upwork but what can I do? I realize this is why no one is contacting me now. 

 

 

ACCEPTED SOLUTION


ILANNA M wrote:

I did leave feedback but I'd like to reword it. Can I do so? 


Only if he allows you to.

Regarding the feedback he left check out the ToU:

4. PROHIBITED SITE USES
Section 4 explains uses of the Site that are not allowed, as detailed below:
You may not use, or encourage, promote, facilitate, instruct or induce others to use, the Site or Site Services for any activities that violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation; for any other illegal or fraudulent purpose or any purpose that is harmful to others; or to transmit, store, display, distribute or otherwise make available content that is illegal, fraudulent or harmful to others.

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81 REPLIES 81
varungs
Community Member

If the feedback is objectively false, then Upwork may remove it. It's a long shot and they only do so in rare circumstances. Contact the team about it.

He tried to prove this in dispute resolution and failed. But, he's angry he didn't get his money back. We agreed in resolution that he was not to do this and he's defied that agreement. 

Making any sort of agreement or guarantee regarding feedback isn't allowed (I think), and even if it is, there's certainly no reason for him to uphold his word. The best you can do is ask him (and the Upwork team) to take down the feedback. In the world of freelancing, you're inevitably going to come across a few really terrible clients. Happens to the best of us.

I didn't know that. Why didn't Upwork say so? I never would have ended the dispute resolution process. As to his feedback it's ruining my profile here and no one has contacted me since. 

petra_r
Community Member

Varun, it is most unlikely that Upwork will touch that feedback. Unless the feedback actually violates the terms of service they won't.

Please stop saying they might and giving false hope.

 

Ilanna, it is a violation of the terms of service to trade a refund for feedback or lack of poor feedback. So that is another reason they will almost certainly not touch it. 

Enforcing an agreement that is a terms of service violation would be most peculiar.

 

One poor feedback does not ruin your profile. See that you get a few other feedbacks so it drops down the page, it will vanish from the first page soon that way. Clients can see beyond one singe poor feedback.

 

In other words, a client can say whatever they like even if it's untrue? How is that a fair way to conduct business. I've been writing for 45 years and this has never been said about me. 

If you are top-rated and have not used the feedback removal perk for the last 3 months and 10 contracts.  You can use your top rated perk to remove this feedback.


ILANNA M wrote:

In other words, a client can say whatever they like even if it's untrue? How is that a fair way to conduct business. I've been writing for 45 years and this has never been said about me. 


This is true of any review system. Check out some of the complaints that brick and mortar stores have about online review platforms. You could sue for defamation. Have you responded and indicated that the client's feedback was left following an unsuccessful attempt on his part to avoid payment. People are capable of using discernment when assessing the veracity of feedback.

IMO, reviews and social proof aren't likely to go away so the best strategy is to learn how to cope with their existence. 😕

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Except, Tonya, Upwork strives to be a platform where professional freelancers are brought together with clients who need valuable services. It is most certainly not a mere "online review platform."

 

Unlike, say, a restaurant's non-existent relationship with Yelp and its rowdy ilk, Upwork fully controls its own feedback platform. That platform serves neither freelancers nor clients if it doesn't provide accurate information.

I did leave feedback but I'd like to reword it. Can I do so? 


ILANNA M wrote:

I did leave feedback but I'd like to reword it. Can I do so? 


Only if the client enables you to do so.

 

Did you leave a (short, professional and to the point) response to the feedback the client left for you?


ILANNA M wrote:

I did leave feedback but I'd like to reword it. Can I do so? 


Only if he allows you to.

Regarding the feedback he left check out the ToU:

4. PROHIBITED SITE USES
Section 4 explains uses of the Site that are not allowed, as detailed below:
You may not use, or encourage, promote, facilitate, instruct or induce others to use, the Site or Site Services for any activities that violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation; for any other illegal or fraudulent purpose or any purpose that is harmful to others; or to transmit, store, display, distribute or otherwise make available content that is illegal, fraudulent or harmful to others.

Thanks, Jennifer!

I really detest having to go through situations such as these, but this past client gave me no choice. I have contacted the lawyer who's helped me so much in the past and they've assured me that he's both in violation of copyright and the law. We may just put a collector's agency on him, but also file formal business complaints to get his attention. 

Has anyone else had experience with that here? 

Sadly, since Upwork has allowed him to put these horrible comments on my profile not one client has hired me. That's on Upwork too, and I don't really want to start fighting with them as well. This just feels horrible. 

Please keep us updated. I would like to know how it pans out. 

Shouldn't you be going after the people that published your work without your permission? If the hadn't done it and you would have taken action then, the client could not have accused you of plagiarism in the first place.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

This is the same client I went to arbitration with. LMAO

 

This is why I miss the elance system of showing cancellations. This guy is a serial "I want a refund" client. It looks like Upwork still has my review of him lmao but they cut off a lot of other freelancers who ranted about the same thing.

 

Next time you talk to him, tell him the winner of arbitration said HI LOSER.

 

a_lipsey
Community Member

This client seems to claim freelancers plagiarize quite often. I wonder if that's his scam to get out of paying?

Wow, that looks like quite the mess. I'll be curious to see how this all works out.

 

It looks like the client has a good rating overall and has spent a lot of money, so even if he is what you guys say he is, Upwork is unlikely to take any action against him just as a matter of financial self-interest. At the same time, I certainly have run across those people and know how they are, so I can sympathize.

 

I'll be watching this with interest. Keep us posted, please.


Alan B wrote:

Wow, that looks like quite the mess. I'll be curious to see how this all works out.

 

It looks like the client has a good rating overall and has spent a lot of money, so even if he is what you guys say he is, Upwork is unlikely to take any action against him just as a matter of financial self-interest. At the same time, I certainly have run across those people and know how they are, so I can sympathize.

 

I'll be watching this with interest. Keep us posted, please.


He has a good rating because most freelancers don't resist refunds. Since Upwork removes $0 contracts, you don't see the *numerous* jobs he's had where he will hire you to write an outline, try to get you to work without escrow, and when you refuse wait a month before he escrows half and tells you to keep going. The reason I got my money is because I told him that he needs to escrow it all. 

 

I think he hires multiple freelancers for the same thing, and then chooses which one he wants to go with and then asks for refunds from the others. OR, he decides what he wants to go with between several different subjects and asks for refunds from the others.

Screen Shot 2020-02-05 at 5.47.13 PM.png


Preston H wrote:

Screen Shot 2020-02-05 at 5.47.13 PM.png


That's all well and good, but what about the damage to your reputation from the negative feedback? OP says she hasn't gotten a single job since this. If what I'm told about Upwork is accurate, a single review less than 5* can cost you Top Rated, Rising Talent, and whatever other badge that can affect your ability to get clients. Sometimes it's just a matter of math.....

My "No Refund" sign is directed to the client this thread is about.

 

The client should not be asking for refunds, and should not be given refunds.

 

If clearly fraudulent nonsense like this can't be eradicated or minimized, I think Upwork will need to change its policies in order to reduce the ability of clients to ask for refunds.


Preston H wrote:

My "No Refund" sign is directed to the client this thread is about.

 

The client should not be asking for refunds, and should not be given refunds.

 

If clearly fraudulent nonsense like this can't be eradicated or minimized, I think Upwork will need to change its policies in order to reduce the ability of clients to ask for refunds.


I completely agree. But my question is a practical one for freelancers who are looking for net profit - is it more expensive to refund, or more expensive not to refund? My opinion is it's usually more expensive to not refund and get drageed through the mud. Refunds are a cost of doing business, regardless of whether they are justified or not.


Alan B wrote:

Preston H wrote:

My "No Refund" sign is directed to the client this thread is about.

 

The client should not be asking for refunds, and should not be given refunds.

 

If clearly fraudulent nonsense like this can't be eradicated or minimized, I think Upwork will need to change its policies in order to reduce the ability of clients to ask for refunds.


I completely agree. But my question is a practical one for freelancers who are looking for net profit - is it more expensive to refund, or more expensive not to refund? My opinion is it's usually more expensive to not refund and get drageed through the mud. Refunds are a cost of doing business, regardless of whether they are justified or not.


Unless refunding is tantamount to admitting plagiarism, which a professional writer does not easily recover from? 

petra_r
Community Member

I'd never have worked with that client.

 

The combination of their feedback history and the fact that it's screamingly obvious how high a percentage of their contracts have been refunded or ended with nothing ever paid (from the enormous discrepancy between their hires and feeback left or received contracts) 

 

Hopefully their history means that they are among the few clients whose feedback is excluded from the JSS calculation brcause of their poor history, but I really do think that such clients have no place on Upwork.

Petra: 

 

Where did you get that information? That would be helpful with my case. 

 

Many thanks

How can I find out how many clients he's asked for refunds from? 


Alan B wrote:

 


That's all well and good, but what about the damage to your reputation from the negative feedback? OP says she hasn't gotten a single job since this. If what I'm told about Upwork is accurate, a single review less than 5* can cost you Top Rated, Rising Talent, and whatever other badge that can affect your ability to get clients. Sometimes it's just a matter of math.....


Dude I got hit by this guy when clients rated you *after* arbitration, so you knew you were getting hit with 1 star. I did not have many reviews either. The only difference between me and the OP is that I only had that one bad review and the rest were good. If you look at what he said about me in his review, it was pretty bad. I suppose it did affect me, but I was also new. I managed to survive. 

Ilanna,

 

Good luck nailing this clown of a client.

 

I'm sorry to hear your new client flow has stopped due to his wildly inaccurate negative feedback.

 

Some problems are best tackled head-on without regard to subtlety, regardless how things are moving on the legal front for you.

 

It's hard to say what is the perfect approach to dealing with this in the near term, but do you address it on your profile or in your proposals? If your feedback has otherwise been very strong and this clown's feedback is obviously an anomaly, that highlights a major weakness in the Upwork "feedback" system. I would find a way to succinctly and professionally (but forcefully) point out to prospective clients my historical success and the long string of happy clients that contrasts starkly against this singular and inaccurate feedback. Being me, I'd also add in a sentence highlighting the weaknesses of Upwork's approach to inaccurate feedback and how defenseless even excellent freelancers are as a result.

 

Best of luck to you. I hope this quickly gets resolved in a way that's fair to you.

The original poster's situation is clearly a problem. This is just one case. We read about situations like this regularly, where clients are using the Upwork system inappropriately.

 

It is not Upwork's intention that clients receive a refund when freelancers do the work.

 

This is a very basic concept.

 

With a fixed-price contract, a client funds a payment, the freelancer does the work, and the client releases the payment. That is how the system is intended to work.

 

The client we read about in the original poster's situation is completely abusing the system. I think he knows that. If he doesn't know that - if he thinks this is how Upwork is supposed to work - then that doesn't help the freelancers he is stealing time and money from.

 

I don't have a perfect solution to offer, but I know this is not right. Maybe some user interface controls need to be moved. Or renamed. Or removed. Clients should not think that it is okay to ask for a refund just because they want money back.

 

It is not like returning an unopened box of nails to the hardware store. We can't put a freelancer's time and labor back on a shelf.


Speaking generally and not about any specific situation:

When a freelancer does work for a client, and the client does not pay the freelancer for her work, the client is a thief.

 

If a client hires a freelancer (or many freelancers) to write articles for him, and then uses loopholes or manipulation or threats or any other methods to avoid paying them for their work, then the client is a thief.

I'm replying now to everyone - thank you with all my heart! Your support is kind, respectful, and a tad overwhelming, but I love it. If you have any specific information on this individual, please let me know. Someone here went to arbitration with him and I'd like to know more about that. I also believe he's using, or rather abusing the system to his advantage. It's right to call him a thief. He is. He stole my work and my time. If someone goes into a person's home and steals their things they're charged. Why should this be any different? The fact that Upwork continues to allow him to demonize me with his comments only makes it worse.

 


ILANNA M wrote:

I'm replying now to everyone - thank you with all my heart! Your support is kind, respectful, and a tad overwhelming, but I love it. If you have any specific information on this individual, please let me know. Someone here went to arbitration with him and I'd like to know more about that. I also believe he's using, or rather abusing the system to his advantage. It's right to call him a thief. He is. He stole my work and my time. If someone goes into a person's home and steals their things they're charged. Why should this be any different? The fact that Upwork continues to allow him to demonize me with his comments only makes it worse.

 


I dug into him when I went to arbitration. The name is in his reviews. If you search on that name, it's an MD in DC. it's hard for me to believe that this is really an MD with a practice slinging test prep questions. If you dig into the address of the company, it's a little ghetto apartment. I think this is a relative of his or maybe his kid or something. If it's the actual MD that comes up in DC, mannnn I guess this is what happens when schools lower the bar for diversity and some dude with C grades gets into medical school.

 

Elance ID verified freelancers before arbitration, but I don't know if they did the same for clients. 

I am NOT going to say what Upwork should do about this specific situation.


But I can tell you what I would do if I had a similar situation on a website that I was an administrator for.

 

I would NOT change the rules of my website for a single freelancer.

But if I came across a situation where a client was so clearly abusing my system, I would quietly go into the backend and remove the client's feedback. Temporarily.

 

I would not announce this action to anybody. (Except perhaps the freelancer herself.)

 

Until an investigation could be done. If an investigation takes place and my people found conclusive evidence that the client's accusations were completely accurate, then I would put the accusatory feedback back.

 

Having said all that, I want to emphasize that I am talking about a hypothetical situation on my own hypothetical website. I understand that there may be reasons that another site might cite for not doing things the same way.

Yes, this seems fair but Upwork won't do it. I'll have to get a letter from my lawyer for them to even consider this. In other words: Upwork has a policy that says we're not allowed to say harmful things about each other. But that's not true is it? They are allowing it. So, then they backtrack and say this is only for top rated freelancers. That means this is a blatantly discriminatory policy. 

How can I find freelancer reviews of him? Nothing is showing up. 

 

See here: https://www.upwork.com/ab/f/offer/11418100

 


ILANNA M wrote:

How can I find freelancer reviews of him? Nothing is showing up. 

 

See here: https://www.upwork.com/ab/f/offer/11418100

 


You can't if there was a refund. Elance would show reviews regardless, so I happen to know there are a lot of hidden rants from freelancers who said they woke up like a month later and the dude wanted a refund. I mistakenly took a job from him when I was new-ish, and did not dig into his history. With Upwork, I'm sure most people breeze through his reviews and think "eh, not great but not terrible." What you can't see is the numerous complaints from freelancers that said he just disappeared and came back like a month later and wanted a refund. lol

 

I used to watch his client profile on elance, and right after my arbitration, he had like 3 refund requests going on three old jobs.

Silly questions: where can I find his reviews? 


ILANNA M wrote:

Silly questions: where can I find his reviews? 


Go to the job posting, and just scroll down. You can see reviews. You won't see any review where he refunded, so his reviews aren't too terrible. There are freelancers who complain but because most freelancers give in and refund, all the ones complaining about waking up one day and he wanted a refund are hidden. I only know about them because Elance didn't hide refunded contract reviews.

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