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sitehive
Community Member

Maternity Leave and Top Rated PLUS Status

Hi Everyone,

 

Is there a chance that Upwork has/considers an option for temporary freeze of profile stats/badge for all the women going on maternity leave? I've read a few other similar topics, and since they talk about the regular Top Rated status, it's easy to dismiss the women's concerns about what they earned with hard work with arguments that if the profile is not active and the latest feedbacks are good, the Top Rated badge will remain.

 

In the case with Top Rated PLUS, we can be sure that it won't remain, because it requires 10k+ earnings in the last 12 months. And there is no way to keep that up on maternity leave. I've been on Upwork for 2+ years now, and it took me pretty much ALL that time to get from 0 to the Top Rated Plus badge, that I received right before the end of 2020. That also marked my 7 months pregnancy and going off work to prepare for the baby. This is rather devastating that a milestone event like maternity, not illness, or long vacations etc., are not accounted for by such a big company, and are of course very disproportionately disadvantaging women.

 

I understand that the Freelance market does not offer the traditional benefits and security, which are not a concern here. Status / badge freeze is neither traditional, nor providing any material benefit, like those of traditional jobs. This is a digital option, that could very well be in place.

 

If anyone would like to share their thoughts on this, I'd be glad to discuss.

ACCEPTED SOLUTION
sitehive
Community Member

I think it’s fair that I should offer some specifics if I’m making a suggestion.

 

Having an option of freezing the stats in certain cases does bring concerns about 

1. Basis / verification for it.

2. Generating advantage over other users.

3. Effect on the quality of service the clients can get on the platform.

 

Stating this is pretty obvious, so I honestly thought we’d at least get to discussing how it unfolds and if there are ways to manage it - or not. Both options are possible, if that’s not obvious either. Another obvious thought to get out of the way: the list might not be final.




1. Basis: It seems indefinitely complicated to verify maternity leave with some off-platform proof (documents or sth). I think an alternative to verification is risk of penalty or giving up another benefit in exchange. 

 

Maternity itself, as well as engaging in work after birth, are both choices (since we are counting obvious thoughts, there’s another one). A possible solution would be setting up a choice as well. For example, maternity leave can be set to minimum 3-6-N months, and during that time the profile is private (=no new contracts) + the stats are frozen, and you can’t get it back earlier even if you change your mind. The limit could be made shorter or longer, depending on what you think is harder to exploit unfairly? Being determined enough to give up work for a long time, or having to get back to work quickly, which minimizes the difference from working freelancers (making it more “fair”). Another limit would be frequency: for example, only once in 3 years.

 

Pausing current contracts can be added on top, similarly to the real-life choice between working or getting unemployment benefits. A sacrifice to level with fairness. However, this impacts the current clients that stand to lose a contractor now, when they did not have to. This is an open-ended point so far.



2. Fairness: May be supported by making this a general long-term leave option, available to all users, but, again, narrowly tailored so it’s not beneficial to exploit it. In the initial post I made a contrast between maternity leave and medical leave, long-term vacations. I thought that if I suggested a universal approach to all of these, it would be considered too broad and outrageous. Little did I know, that a narrow & specific case is too outrageous to bring up as well 😃 

 

Also, in my case, it was mentioned that Top Rated plus is not universal enough, which must be true. 

 

If this was universal, would it shift from a fairness perspective to a useful accomodation for all users of the platform? Or would it water down the requirements and make the system just weaker overall? I think this would be a concern for many…  I would assume not, because if you are taking a leave, YOU lose the most. Not the others because you did and they didn’t. My view is if there’s a high enough price to pay for an option (same as effort in reaching a certain award), the system remains firm & balanced.



3. Quality for clients: The expiration factor of badges, as well as freelancer’s availability setting, ensure the highlighted freelancers are active and open to more work. I’m not sure if the expiration factor is indicative of the quality of your skills, because that lies in the feedback & earnings/contract factors. It adds a bit of recency to them, but if your pitch ever mentioned sth like X+ years in the industry, a diploma etc., non-recent skills & experience must be ok, right? 😉

 

| SIDENOTE: from what I’ve seen, the better you get, the less new projects you consider, because you get referrals, you get pickier, you have a pull of existing clients, clients get bigger, they require more time, you up your rate. Oftentimes, you may end up less available for new work, than you were before reaching certain milestones. So the recency element of your badge is a bit arbitrary. On top of that, the ‘back-to-work’ freelancers who took a leave, might be more active and interested, than those that did not leave. That is fresh blood of high quality and beneficial for clients.

 

I have a simple judgement here, the clients get a whole range of freelancers. Those who are not available ANYWAY, with or without the “leave” option, are not there because they lost their rating or because they are set to private. When they are back, arguably they still have their qualities, but I’m honestly too tired now to try to expand more on that. 

View solution in original post

32 REPLIES 32
lysis10
Community Member

You're an independent contractor, not an employee. It's a badge. It'll come back when you come back.

sitehive
Community Member

Thanks for your reply, I believe I addressed the employee / independent contractor comparison in a couple sentences. I’m sure the point can be debated, but it seems logical to then address it with a specific argument , rather than stating the fact, would you agree?

 

Instead, being an independent contractor and having a work and financial relationship with Upwork, seems like a basis to have questions and maybe unaccounted needs re the services I’m getting from the platform, including the badges. I guess Upwork was not in its current form from the moment it appeared, but went through changes, based on the community’s needs among other things. 

tlsanders
Community Member

That would completely undermine the point of the badges.

This is a thought I had to consider. I would agree with this to a certain extent. The extent is that expiration is only one element of the badge. So I guess, there’s no undermining it completely, to begin with. So the question is how important do you think it is, in line with others? I would look at badges as a sign of excellence in work, reliability in client-freelancer relationship, communicative skills. I’m not sure that a prominent feature of these is an expiration date. And if so, would you throw out your high school and college diploma at a certain age? That knowledge and skills expiration is more likely than of the practical skills we have now, let’s be honest.

 

I think that a valuable feature of badges’ expiration is that it ensures that the freelancers that are highlighted for the clients, are actually active,  open for work, consistent in their results. So if I removed myself from active profiles and reappeared when I’m back at that level, what would that undermine? If I engage with clients and I’m not able to take on enough work / provide quality, I’d lose the badge, and that’s fair and encrypted in the system.

petra_r
Community Member


Svitlana G wrote:

In the case with Top Rated PLUS, we can be sure that it won't remain, because it requires 10k+ earnings in the last 12 months.


Edited for clarity. There is no "in the last 12 months" requirement attached to the amount earned on one large contract, only that you have an open contract that has earned the required amount, and that you have worked on it (no matter how little) within the last 12 months. So as long as you don't close the large contract in question, you can pick back up when you return from maternity leave and your Top Rated Plus status will return once you are active again. If you have occasional activity during your leave, it may not even go away in the first place.


So the point is moot anyway. (Edited to add: Unless you fall below the 12 months earning barrier)

Hi Petra,
That's not true!
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Over$10k earned in the past 12 months is actually a requirement for top rated plus.



Namita S wrote:
Hi Petra,
That's not true!

It is true but I was talking about the contract itself, rather than the 12 month earnings.

 


Namita S wrote:
Over$10k earned in the past 12 months is actually a requirement for top rated plus.

It is, but not on one contract.

 

Please read the announcement and the Support Article

 

criteria.png

 

I think there are two requirements that got confused (my fault) - the overall 12 month earnings which is what you are (and possibly the OP) talking about and the size of the contract, which is what I was talking about.

Yes, I know. Iam not saying it has to be on one contract.
Thanks!


Namita S wrote:
Yes, I know. Iam not saying it has to be on one contract.
Thanks!


Yes, I clarified my post - thanks for pointing it out 🙂

sitehive
Community Member

Hi Petra, the point you made seems indeed moot, as here are the requirements for Top rated plus badge:

https://www.upwork.com/ab/profiles/vetted/find-the-right-talent

  • Large or long-term contracts (over $5K)
  • $10K+ earned in the last 12 months

10k+ earnings concerns the earnings, not the large scale contract, which is a separate requirement.

tlbp
Community Member

What information would people have to submit to Upwork to prove that a leave is actually for maternity? Would they have to submit regular medical updates? The child's birth certificate? How much time could people claim? The entire pregnancy? One year after the child is born? Until they enter school? Is it fair to those who want to take a year or two off for a mental health break? To pursue a full-time job? Because of some other illness? What about men? Shouldn't they get paternity allowances? Shouldn't they also have the right to prepare for the baby without losing their badges? How much time for adoptive parents? 
Should Upwork do away with time limits altogether and just indefinitely label people as top performers? Should they do away with the label as without a time limit, the label would be deceptive? 

sitehive
Community Member

Hi Tonya 🙂 

 

Let me answer with a question. Do you think listing many questions / concerns brings up information that was in the dark for everyone else? Would you say this is what’s called whataboutism? Did you have a chance to see Upwork’s update announcement re the TOS change that made everyone have calls through Upwork until there was a contract (summer 2020)? Did you notice a billion questions and concerns that were quite solid at many times and well-voiced? Did those questions change something or maybe simply raising questions does not yet prove anything? If we were thinking towards a solution instead, or at least consider that direction, would that help us get things done, like Upwork did, and later introduced the zoom integration? 

 

I’d say that the paternity issue and the question on the need / form of proving maternity seem solid for a discussion, but judging from the overall format of your post I’m not sure you intended to have one.

petra_r
Community Member

Yet another attempt by an individual to change the platform according to their own, very specific circumstances...

 

Most people who freelance keep freelancing (to some degree) during their maternity leave. The only ones who do not are those who get paid maternity leave through their government and aren't allowed to earn money or they lose some or all of that "free" money.

 

Bottom line: The criteria for the badges are what they are. They are what they are for everyone, which makes them fair.

If they were changed for a subset of freelancers, that would be  terribly unfair to the others.

 

Once you start making exceptions it simply escalates until finally everyone has a top rated plus badge and they become copletely meaningless.

 

sitehive
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Yet another attempt by an individual to change the platform according to their own, very specific circumstances...

 

Most people who freelance keep freelancing (to some degree) during their maternity leave. The only ones who do not are those who get paid maternity leave through their government and aren't allowed to earn money or they lose some or all of that "free" money.

 

Bottom line: The criteria for the badges are what they are. They are what they are for everyone, which makes them fair.

If they were changed for a subset of freelancers, that would be  terribly unfair to the others.

 

Once you start making exceptions it simply escalates until finally everyone has a top rated plus badge and they become copletely meaningless.

 



Wow, the comments’ energy seems to have gotten less energetic and a bit more grim. I'll post this to both of you guys, just so you get a notification. I do appreciate you doing your part as active “contributors” of the forum and stopping by, this creates some movement to the topics content and makes me express my thoughts. Although, with the most irrelevant comment getting the most kudos, some trivial one-liners etc.,it seems like the effort was initially more targeted to keep up the forum “guru” stats. Not like it’s a huge problem.

 

I have support from my government, it’s conditioned only on the taxes that I paid before. As a legally registered ‘individual enterpreneur’, I am fully free to work as much as I want on maternity leave. I’m also not given any tax exemption, so I have to pay fixed social benefit tax even if I don’t work at all, as well as a floating earnings-based tax. 

 

Perhaps there’s a preconditioned view on the suggestion for changes, and it makes you think about “exceptions”, finances, special treatment (none other than of the super-duper rank Smiley LOL, because, of course, maternity is THAT unique hahah) So I have to honestly say: I do not feel problematic about working on maternity leave to some extent / loss of income / social benefits / risks to my career etc. 

 

Because that’s taken care of. 

 

The issue I have is being punished for being unavailable for full-time work, although it is clear, well-based and long-term. Especially if that punishment is losing a digital badge of excellence, invented & controlled by the platform. The real bottom line is, you see, in reality, I will be as qualified for it in a year, as I am now - specifically in terms of working long-term with clients and building great relationships with them. And although I’m not entitled to this abstract badge, it is not something so organic and large-scale, that changing it is like bending reality or equality.



P.S. I actually already received the award.

 

Best, Svitlana

tlbp
Community Member


Svitlana G wrote:

Hi Tonya 🙂 

 

Let me answer with a question. Do you think listing many questions / concerns brings up information that was in the dark for everyone else? Would you say this is what’s called whataboutism? Did you have a chance to see Upwork’s update announcement re the TOS change that made everyone have calls through Upwork until there was a contract (summer 2020)? Did you notice a billion questions and concerns that were quite solid at many times and well-voiced? Did those questions change something or maybe simply raising questions does not yet prove anything? If we were thinking towards a solution instead, or at least consider that direction, would that help us get things done, like Upwork did, and later introduced the zoom integration? 

 

I’d say that the paternity issue and the question on the need / form of proving maternity seem solid for a discussion, but judging from the overall format of your post I’m not sure you intended to have one.




The reason you want to take a year off from running your business should not entitle you to a special dispensation. 

You're not suffering a discriminatory action because everyone has the same choice to work as an independent business owner and earn a certain amount annually. If they do, they qualify. What you are asking is to be treated as super-duper special and you are using your gender to make that claim. That's not fair to anyone else and seems very narrowly defined to benefit you. TR+ isn't even a universal award. It has very specific non-gender biased criteria. 

If Petra is correct, it is a great thing that women who chose or cannot work while pregnant have a source of financial support from their government. But you are basically asking to receive a performance award from a private entity during a time when you have chosen not to perform. 

sitehive
Community Member


Tonya P wrote:

The reason you want to take a year off from running your business should not entitle you to a special dispensation. 

You're not suffering a discriminatory action because everyone has the same choice to work as an independent business owner and earn a certain amount annually. If they do, they qualify. What you are asking is to be treated as super-duper special and you are using your gender to make that claim. That's not fair to anyone else and seems very narrowly defined to benefit you. TR+ isn't even a universal award. It has very specific non-gender biased criteria. 

If Petra is correct, it is a great thing that women who chose or cannot work while pregnant have a source of financial support from their government. But you are basically asking to receive a performance award from a private entity during a time when you have chosen not to perform. 

Wow, the comments’ energy seems to have gotten less energetic and a bit more grim. I'll post this to both of you guys, just so you get a notification. I do appreciate you doing your part as active “contributors” of the forum and stopping by, this creates some movement to the topics content and makes me express my thoughts. Although, with the most irrelevant comment getting the most kudos, some trivial one-liners etc.,it seems like the effort was initially more targeted to keep up the forum “guru” stats. Not like it’s a huge problem.

 

I have support from my government, it’s conditioned only on the taxes that I paid before. As a legally registered ‘individual enterpreneur’, I am fully free to work as much as I want on maternity leave. I’m also not given any tax exemption, so I have to pay fixed social benefit tax even if I don’t work at all, as well as a floating earnings-based tax. 

 

Perhaps there’s a preconditioned view on the suggestion for changes, and it makes you think about “exceptions”, finances, special treatment (none other than of the super-duper rank Smiley LOL, because, of course, maternity is THAT unique hahah) So I have to honestly say: I do not feel problematic about working on maternity leave to some extent / loss of income / social benefits / risks to my career etc. 

 

Because that’s taken care of. 

 

The issue I have is being punished for being unavailable for full-time work, although it is clear, well-based and long-term. Especially if that punishment is losing a digital badge of excellence, invented & controlled by the platform. The real bottom line is, you see, in reality, I will be as qualified for it in a year, as I am now - specifically in terms of working long-term with clients and building great relationships with them. And although I’m not entitled to this abstract badge, it is not something so organic and large-scale, that changing it is like bending reality or equality.



P.S. I actually already received the award.

 

Best, Svitlana

petra_r
Community Member

You're not being "punished" and if you can work during maternity leave without losing your maternity pay from the government (this is not the case in all countries) then feel free to work and keep your badge by merit, not because you get special favours other freelancers are denied. What you are asking for is unfair and is yet another case of people demading that Upwork change their business model to gain personal benefits for themselves.


Get used to the fact that you are free to make decisions freely, but that all decisions have consequences. So if you don't work enough to earn the required amount for special badges, those badges go away because that is the way it is and it would be entirely unfair to make special dispensations for people who freely choose not to do what is needed to keep them..

sitehive
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

You're not being "punished" and if you can work during maternity leave without losing your maternity pay from the government (this is not the case in all countries) then feel free to work and keep your badge by merit, not because you get special favours other freelancers are denied. What you are asking for is unfair and is yet another case of people demading that Upwork change their business model to gain personal benefits for themselves.


Get used to the fact that you are free to make decisions freely, but that all decisions have consequences. So if you don't work enough to earn the required amount for special badges, those badges go away because that is the way it is and it would be entirely unfair to make special dispensations for people who freely choose not to do what is needed to keep them..


Being restricted from work while on social benefits is pretty logical. I think it’s also fairly widespread (for unemployment support, for example) + it makes one good argument FOR an “Upwork maternity leave”. This limitation is more consequential and real, than for example my decision not to work.

 

I would think it goes without saying that a discussion on policy is not about a specific situation, and many cases should be considered. 

 

I share my case openly because that’s part of the necessary input from my side to start a conversation. It is simply dishonest to deny consideration to an issue by pretending that my situation is the only possible focus.


Svitlana G wrote:

Hi Tonya 🙂 

 

Let me answer with a question. Do you think listing many questions / concerns brings up information that was in the dark for everyone else? Would you say this is what’s called whataboutism? Did you have a chance to see Upwork’s update announcement re the TOS change that made everyone have calls through Upwork until there was a contract (summer 2020)? Did you notice a billion questions and concerns that were quite solid at many times and well-voiced? Did those questions change something or maybe simply raising questions does not yet prove anything? If we were thinking towards a solution instead, or at least consider that direction, would that help us get things done, like Upwork did, and later introduced the zoom integration? 

 

I’d say that the paternity issue and the question on the need / form of proving maternity seem solid for a discussion, but judging from the overall format of your post I’m not sure you intended to have one.


OK, you took umbrage at Tonya's rhetorical choices. Try this. I'd be more inclined to support this kind of initiative if it were conceptualized and framed to include more kinds of circumstances, not just maternity. I basically tanked my business during a period of years when I was deeply involved in caring for a declining parent. In the US, remaining unmarried and childless has cost me a fortune through tax advantages for which I was ineligible. Yes, the business world should be more accommodating of mothers And fathers. And daughters and sons. 

 

Insofar as UW goes, I think the whole discussion is moot due to practical considerations. But maybe this will help clarify some of the pushback you're getting.

 

sitehive
Community Member

I think it’s fair that I should offer some specifics if I’m making a suggestion.

 

Having an option of freezing the stats in certain cases does bring concerns about 

1. Basis / verification for it.

2. Generating advantage over other users.

3. Effect on the quality of service the clients can get on the platform.

 

Stating this is pretty obvious, so I honestly thought we’d at least get to discussing how it unfolds and if there are ways to manage it - or not. Both options are possible, if that’s not obvious either. Another obvious thought to get out of the way: the list might not be final.




1. Basis: It seems indefinitely complicated to verify maternity leave with some off-platform proof (documents or sth). I think an alternative to verification is risk of penalty or giving up another benefit in exchange. 

 

Maternity itself, as well as engaging in work after birth, are both choices (since we are counting obvious thoughts, there’s another one). A possible solution would be setting up a choice as well. For example, maternity leave can be set to minimum 3-6-N months, and during that time the profile is private (=no new contracts) + the stats are frozen, and you can’t get it back earlier even if you change your mind. The limit could be made shorter or longer, depending on what you think is harder to exploit unfairly? Being determined enough to give up work for a long time, or having to get back to work quickly, which minimizes the difference from working freelancers (making it more “fair”). Another limit would be frequency: for example, only once in 3 years.

 

Pausing current contracts can be added on top, similarly to the real-life choice between working or getting unemployment benefits. A sacrifice to level with fairness. However, this impacts the current clients that stand to lose a contractor now, when they did not have to. This is an open-ended point so far.



2. Fairness: May be supported by making this a general long-term leave option, available to all users, but, again, narrowly tailored so it’s not beneficial to exploit it. In the initial post I made a contrast between maternity leave and medical leave, long-term vacations. I thought that if I suggested a universal approach to all of these, it would be considered too broad and outrageous. Little did I know, that a narrow & specific case is too outrageous to bring up as well 😃 

 

Also, in my case, it was mentioned that Top Rated plus is not universal enough, which must be true. 

 

If this was universal, would it shift from a fairness perspective to a useful accomodation for all users of the platform? Or would it water down the requirements and make the system just weaker overall? I think this would be a concern for many…  I would assume not, because if you are taking a leave, YOU lose the most. Not the others because you did and they didn’t. My view is if there’s a high enough price to pay for an option (same as effort in reaching a certain award), the system remains firm & balanced.



3. Quality for clients: The expiration factor of badges, as well as freelancer’s availability setting, ensure the highlighted freelancers are active and open to more work. I’m not sure if the expiration factor is indicative of the quality of your skills, because that lies in the feedback & earnings/contract factors. It adds a bit of recency to them, but if your pitch ever mentioned sth like X+ years in the industry, a diploma etc., non-recent skills & experience must be ok, right? 😉

 

| SIDENOTE: from what I’ve seen, the better you get, the less new projects you consider, because you get referrals, you get pickier, you have a pull of existing clients, clients get bigger, they require more time, you up your rate. Oftentimes, you may end up less available for new work, than you were before reaching certain milestones. So the recency element of your badge is a bit arbitrary. On top of that, the ‘back-to-work’ freelancers who took a leave, might be more active and interested, than those that did not leave. That is fresh blood of high quality and beneficial for clients.

 

I have a simple judgement here, the clients get a whole range of freelancers. Those who are not available ANYWAY, with or without the “leave” option, are not there because they lost their rating or because they are set to private. When they are back, arguably they still have their qualities, but I’m honestly too tired now to try to expand more on that. 

This is the fate of a working mother.

I made several observations:

  1. You must not work when you have children. Being a mother is a fulltime job. It is irrelevant that you have a professional career, these are only for people that plan on receiving some kind of pension when they are older. As a mother you are there so sacrifice your future for your child/ren.
  2. Use daycare if you can. Some countries do provide daycare or such for small children. Some only on paper. If you can, use daycare but don't be surprised if you are labelled an uncaring mother. It basically leads back to 1, but who cares.
  3. It takes 2 to become 3. Get your partner involved. It might be a struggle at first because some people start to panic when confronted with a crying infant. They need clear instructions. Start with sending the father and baby on a stroll on the days the father is not working. Once they are out of the way...
  4. Take time off for yourself. This could be for some extra sleep or to catch up with some work.
  5. Award yourself the Superduper Plus badge. You are managing a lifelong client even though the worth of this contract cannot be expressed in $$$.


Jennifer R wrote:

This is the fate of a working mother.

I made several observations:

  1. You must not work when you have children. Being a mother is a fulltime job. It is irrelevant that you have a professional career, these are only for people that plan on receiving some kind of pension when they are older. As a mother you are there so sacrifice your future for your child/ren.
  2. Use daycare if you can. Some countries do provide daycare or such for small children. Some only on paper. If you can, use daycare but don't be surprised if you are labelled an uncaring mother. It basically leads back to 1, but who cares.
  3. It takes 2 to become 3. Get your partner involved. It might be a struggle at first because some people start to panic when confronted with a crying infant. They need clear instructions. Start with sending the father and baby on a stroll on the days the father is not working. Once they are out of the way...
  4. Take time off for yourself. This could be for some extra sleep or to catch up with some work.
  5. Award yourself the Superduper Plus badge. You are managing a lifelong client even though the worth of this contract cannot be expressed in $$$.

 

Thank you for the insights, Jennifer!) This is very kind input, and it’s appreciated!

In my case, all I care for now is getting the first days and hours of the experience. There will come time to plan and address issues beyond that. This is how I like to approach work, paying attention to every detail and making the experience as full and efficient as possible. It’s the same preference for maternity, which is why I plan on a longer leave, but it does not have to be accommodated for by an option I’m proposing. I would like to have an option, does not mean it has to fit me specifically. 😃 

I completely empathize with this need. The fact is that 50% of the population has no choice but to deal with this circumstance while the other 50% , no matter how much they want or do participate, still has the freedom to work without the medical realities of carrying and birthing a child. 

 

Having stated the above and UW is not your employer. They are a service provider you use to facilitate your work. It is impractical on such a platform to manage this sort of thing without being exposed to fraud and privacy concerns plus valid complaints that it doesn't cover illness, injury, etc. 

 

There are pros/cons when considering full time employment versus freelancing. As is typical in life, we cannot have our cake and eat it too.  I cannot speak to how all countries handle this, but in the US you can join a company and get maternity/paternity leave and FMLA. You also have vacation and sick time. So one gets paid while not working. This is a clear perk of being an employee depending on company and position. Freelancing gives you the freedom to do as you wish and in whatever manner you wish. A side effect of this freedom comes the lack of the traditional safety net offered by full time employment.  The reality is that we cannot have all of the perks of traditional employment with all of the perks of freelancing. You go with the best option for you knowing you will lose out on the perks of the other.


Scott B wrote:

There are pros/cons when considering full time employment versus freelancing. As is typical in life, we cannot have our cake and eat it too.  I cannot speak to how all countries handle this, but in the US you can join a company and get maternity/paternity leave and FMLA. You also have vacation and sick time. So one gets paid while not working. This is a clear perk of being an employee depending on company and position. Freelancing gives you the freedom to do as you wish and in whatever manner you wish. A side effect of this freedom comes the lack of the traditional safety net offered by full time employment.  The reality is that we cannot have all of the perks of traditional employment with all of the perks of freelancing. You go with the best option for you knowing you will lose out on the perks of the other.


I was an employee with a permanent contract when I went into labour. A few weeks later I got the message that the company needs to let go some people and I was one of them. So no real protection there.

Being a freelancer allows me to be flexible with my time which is great with a small kid. Not having the daily pressure of dropping off the kid and then being at my desk by 8am is great.

In the last year this has changed. The pandemic allowed employees to take paid leave and look after the kids if daycare is closed, as a freelancer I often work late or at weekends to meet deadlines. It would be so much easier without a kid but then you don't get questions like "Which colour do I have to use to colour something transparent."


Jennifer R wrote:

It would be so much easier without a kid but then you don't get questions like "Which colour do I have to use to colour something transparent."

Actually, you don't need a kid for that. I once had a client and was asking him questions about his likes and dislikes, and he told me that his favourite colour was "clear". I was sorely tempted to send him a blank sheet of paper and say, "Here you go - that'll be $500." (Sorry, I know this is off topic, but Jennifer's post reminded me of this incident.)

 

On topic - I think there have been good points made on both sides, but at the end of the day, Upwork is based in the U.S., which I think will make the whole maternity leave issue an uphill battle. Women there take an average of only 10 weeks off work, and apparently 1 in 4 women take less than 10 days (!). So I think you'd have a hard time convincing an American company that women should have a full year off, because it's just not the done thing there. 

 


Christine A wrote:

On topic - I think there have been good points made on both sides, but at the end of the day, Upwork is based in the U.S., which I think will make the whole maternity leave issue an uphill battle. Women there take an average of only 10 weeks off work, and apparently 1 in 4 women take less than 10 days (!). So I think you'd have a hard time convincing an American company that women should have a full year off, because it's just not the done thing there.

Thank you for sharing the details! It’s an interesting angle re US + the common duration for a maternity leave. If Upwork introduced some sort of maternity / universal leave option, and it would be 10 weeks max, I’d be glad to consider it and prob not take it as a personal preference. I would be also glad to know this is a choice for all the other women / users. This is a real-life need for everyone at some point. Being tied up to work is not in the spirit of freelance. Choosing to exceed over others because you work and they are hanging out - totally is.


Scott B wrote:

I completely empathize with this need. The fact is that 50% of the population has no choice but to deal with this circumstance while the other 50% , no matter how much they want or do participate, still has the freedom to work without the medical realities of carrying and birthing a child. 

 

Having stated the above and UW is not your employer. They are a service provider you use to facilitate your work. It is impractical on such a platform to manage this sort of thing without being exposed to fraud and privacy concerns plus valid complaints that it doesn't cover illness, injury, etc. 

 

There are pros/cons when considering full time employment versus freelancing. As is typical in life, we cannot have our cake and eat it too.  I cannot speak to how all countries handle this, but in the US you can join a company and get maternity/paternity leave and FMLA. You also have vacation and sick time. So one gets paid while not working. This is a clear perk of being an employee depending on company and position. Freelancing gives you the freedom to do as you wish and in whatever manner you wish. A side effect of this freedom comes the lack of the traditional safety net offered by full time employment.  The reality is that we cannot have all of the perks of traditional employment with all of the perks of freelancing. You go with the best option for you knowing you will lose out on the perks of the other.


 

Thank you for the warm and empathetic answer, Scott! 

I mentioned this before, but I have to stress it again 🙂 This does not concern getting some sort of security or getting paid, we have to admit that. 

Although it is logical to make the employee / independent contractor comparison, there is no appeal for material benefits in the first place. So that comparison instantly weighs in favor of closing the issue, because, OF COURSE, asking for monetary support from Upwork would be khm.. a bit much, wouldn’t it? 

 

I can’t shake the feeling that it’s viewed as if I need an explanation on independence / freelance… But maybe I need to explain the approach.:)

I believe you can ask for options without hoping to shift responsibility / get undeserved social security and benefits / and overall crawl under some sort of protection. Just as a fun example - in my case, I live in Ukraine. And being an employee is not far off being a freelancer. You are the source of your security. And then, success, as much of it as you can get. But it must be the underlying truth for millions of people regardless of their country. And it’s not bad at all. But, with this mindset, it’s just surprising to be told not to expect security from Upwork, when you never expected that from any employer or the society in general :D.

 

Service options of a platform we use, and pay a good fee for, are completely up for discussion and evaluation. And, they are the platform’s prerogative in the end. 2 statements can be true at the same time. 

I also addressed the management part of this (fraud, fairness etc.) in the last post, and I’d be glad to discuss the details. 

 

I understand and I agree, that it may end up a King-sized burger of implications. 

 

So far, it’s mentioned broadly by everyone, but it’s hard to start thinking about, if examples and specific points are not brought up. I tried to come up with some. So I think further discussion would be fair if it bounced off those or similar specifics. For example, Is there really a need to prove your reason for a leave, when you are the one who’s losing money and career opportunities? What’s the incentive for fraud? (That would work if there would be a universal leave option, of course, not just maternity).

"I believe you can ask for options without hoping to shift responsibility / get undeserved social security and benefits / and overall crawl under some sort of protection. Just as a fun example - in my case, I live in Ukraine. And being an employee is not far off being a freelancer. You are the source of your security. And then, success, as much of it as you can get. But it must be the underlying truth for millions of people regardless of their country. And it’s not bad at all. But, with this mindset, it’s just surprising to be told not to expect security from Upwork, when you never expected that from any employer or the society in general Smiley Very Happy".

 

In the broadest sense you are right in that there is no perfect security. You may have what is available to you via an employment contract (if it exists) but otherwise for the most part you aren't guaranteed. As an extreme example, a company may simply go out of business. However, from a practical standpoint there is a huge difference between what you can expect as an employee versus as a freelancer. Also, in general, there certainly is more security when an FTE versus a freelancer. This is as a general rule and again does not apply to all. I do not think it is a fair or accurate comparison to equate the security and benefits of an FTE role with what UW provides as a service provider. The freelancer is their own business here and that, from a security perspective, simply is much different than typical employment.

 

"For example, Is there really a need to prove your reason for a leave, when you are the one who’s losing money and career opportunities? What’s the incentive for fraud? (That would work if there would be a universal leave option, of course, not just maternity)."

 

Yes. Let's say you aren't pregnant but rather want to take an extended leave for global travel or to engage in other activities. You don't necessarily expect to leave for good, but you want to step away for an extended duration. Boy would it be great to come back with all benefits intact and pick up right where you left off as if nothing happened? So you say you are pregnant which allows you to side step the rules while you go about your global travels and when you return you start up again with all privileges having not had to comply with the measure required to be in the program. I am not suggesting that, Svitlana, would do that. However, are there freelancers on this platform who would take such advantage for a number of reasons? Absolutely. 

 


Scott B wrote:

 

In the broadest sense you are right in that there is no perfect security. You may have what is available to you via an employment contract (if it exists) but otherwise for the most part you aren't guaranteed. As an extreme example, a company may simply go out of business. However, from a practical standpoint there is a huge difference between what you can expect as an employee versus as a freelancer. Also, in general, there certainly is more security when an FTE versus a freelancer. This is as a general rule and again does not apply to all. I do not think it is a fair or accurate comparison to equate the security and benefits of an FTE role with what UW provides as a service provider. The freelancer is their own business here and that, from a security perspective, simply is much different than typical employment.

 

"For example, Is there really a need to prove your reason for a leave, when you are the one who’s losing money and career opportunities? What’s the incentive for fraud? (That would work if there would be a universal leave option, of course, not just maternity)."

 

Yes. Let's say you aren't pregnant but rather want to take an extended leave for global travel or to engage in other activities. You don't necessarily expect to leave for good, but you want to step away for an extended duration. Boy would it be great to come back with all benefits intact and pick up right where you left off as if nothing happened? So you say you are pregnant which allows you to side step the rules while you go about your global travels and when you return you start up again with all privileges having not had to comply with the measure required to be in the program. I am not suggesting that, Svitlana, would do that. However, are there freelancers on this platform who would take such advantage for a number of reasons? Absolutely. 


 

This is logical, so that’s why I actually mentioned that the question stands for a universal leave option, not maternity. I also layed out a few thoughts on that in the longread before. You don’t have to read it, but if we are having a conversation, you can understand that it feels a bit strange that I’m getting explained about simple things and not the points I expressed. Would you like to say something about those?

 

Perhaps, once again, I should make it even clearer:

  • “UW is not an employer” - no such point in the 1st place. But we can act as if. To make an unbalanced comparison of social securities vs a digital option 🙂 
  • Point that was made: UW is a service provider and I’m asking for a service option.

 

  • “Use maternity leave for a vacation. Come back with all benefits intact and pick up right where you left off as if nothing happened?” - literally specified that this was not the implication. 
  • Question that was asked: for a universal leave option, what would be the incentive for a fraud?

 

Final question: What is the actual downside of, for example, a 3 months universal leave option that you can take once in 3 years? 

We can label it with certain emotional appeal, like it’s egoistical or too much or unfair and a burden on the system. And that really makes me wonder, can we have a clear-minded thought on that? Or are all thoughts preconditioned and boxed?

petra_r
Community Member


Svitlana G wrote:

Final question: What is the actual downside of, for example, a 3 months universal leave option that you can take once in 3 years? 

 


No downside and you can do that already.

You are absolutely and perfectly free to take 3 months off any time you like, provided you can afford to do so. 

 

Like every decision in life such a decision may have consequences, of course, but it isn't Upwork's job to protect us from the consequences of our own decisions.

kfarnell
Community Member

Deleted - too personal. Though it had unicorns in it.

sitehive
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Svitlana G wrote:

Final question: What is the actual downside of, for example, a 3 months universal leave option that you can take once in 3 years? 

 


No downside and you can do that already.

You are absolutely and perfectly free to take 3 months off any time you like, provided you can afford to do so. 

 

Like every decision in life such a decision may have consequences, of course, but it isn't Upwork's job to protect us from the consequences of our own decisions.


The question was of course made in context, here it is in case it was missed: 

What is the actual downside of having a leave option and not losing the perks? 

 

There was a rhetorical question made as a point, like wouldn’t it be nice to have a vacation and come back and everything is intact. 

 

So I was wondering, what’s the real-life basis for the attempt at irony in there.:) Does anyone have their stuff missing or something, after you go off work or on vacation? Money taken out from a bank account? Things just drop off your resume? If not, is that unfair to other people that you kept it? XD

 

If you find the the decision-consequence such an overwhelming idea, that it must end all thought movement and discussion, let me put it this way:

The consequence is you miss out on earnings. But that’s somehow not mentioned, because then a virtual setting would not seem as serious and real, as it’s made out to be.

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