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calicocopy
Community Member

Misleading Job Postings

Recently I replied to a posting for someone to jazz up a sales letter and do a few other things. It sounded like the letter was all drafted and just needed some touch-ups. Usually, I don't go with these small jobs but the topic was interesting. So I wrote a proposal.  

 

Then the company wrote back to say it was important for the writer to "get inside the head of " this guy's business partner, and "translate his ideas into readable content..." after talking on the phone. 


Getting inside someone's head is not what a copywriter does. This was completely different from the job description posted and I have no interest in doing it. I lost the time to write the proposal but Upwork at least gave me my contacts back.

 

Today I responded to an ad for specialty copywriting which I can do. The company replied with a link to a blog and the question, "Can you write for this space?" Probably yes if they suggest topics and pay me enough for research.

But my question is, why didn't they include this in their posting? It's bad enough that we are paying to submit; the clients do not seem to have any responsibility to make their postings accurate. Sure I can go back and ask for another refund (and probably will) but this is adding insult to injury. If the freelancers have to pay, the clients should be open about what the jobs entail. 

 

 

 

20 REPLIES 20
prestonhunter
Community Member

re: "But my question is, why didn't they include this in their posting?"

 

Possibly because they are not skilled at writing job descriptions.

 

They are hiring freelancers to help them with their writing. They may not be skilled in any kind of writing.

 

I really am sorry if you were disappointed by these experiences, but I don't see any intentional malice or deception in the cases you described. It simply appears that these clients' job-posting skills are lacking.

 

Do have a suggestion about what Upwork could do differently?

No. They are crystal clear when they follow up AFTER I've made the proposal
and spent the credits.

Do you feel like these clients were asking you to do tasks that no writers would reasonably be asked to do? Or is your criticism of these job posts that they didn't include a sufficiently comprehensive overview of the tasks they wanted done?

Both. A trained, professional copywriter doesn't "get inside someone's
head" and just translate their "ideas." We work with features and benefits
and solid information about the service and the target market. Some people
might be willing to try, especially if the job isn't presented as
copywriting but not if they're experienced. I believe the job was posted
as "expert."

As for the second, yes many people would respond if there were more detail.
I'm not sure I would have but then again, I don't have enough info.


Catharine G wrote:
Both. A trained, professional copywriter doesn't "get inside someone's
head" and just translate their "ideas." We work with features and benefits
and solid information about the service and the target market. Some people
might be willing to try, especially if the job isn't presented as
copywriting but not if they're experienced. I believe the job was posted
as "expert."

As for the second, yes many people would respond if there were more detail.
I'm not sure I would have but then again, I don't have enough info.

Hi Catharine, 

I don't work as a writer. I'm an editor. I do still get messages from potential clients who are running under the assumption that I can write what's in their heads. I don't know why they expect this, any more than I know why they may request turnaround times that aren't humanly possible to meet. Maybe it's poor parenting, inadequate formative educational experiences, or ridiculously bad genes. 

Life is irritating. 
People are stupid. 
And they're now equipped with technologies that allow them to be even stupider and more irritating at speeds that would have left our ancestors completely speechless. 
The people who have access to posting jobs on this platform don't have to pass a professional conduct test of any kind. They don't have to prove that they're professionals.
All they need to post is a phone (which may account for some of the less detailed posts that you see). 

The point is, the longer you hang onto the idea that they are not acting the way they should, the longer you will suffer. After a while, your idiotspotting and quickscreening skills will improve by leaps and bounds. 



yitwail
Community Member


Catharine G wrote:

I lost the time to write the proposal but Upwork at least gave me my contacts back.

 

[skipped content]

 

 Sure I can go back and ask for another refund (and probably will) but this is adding insult to injury.

 


Catharine, sounds to me like you asked Upwork to return connects and they did so? I'm intrigued, because it's been repeatedly stated that connects will not be returned unless the client or Upwork cancels the job.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce
petra_r
Community Member


Catharine G wrote:

It's bad enough that we are paying to submit; the clients do not seem to have any responsibility to make their postings accurate. Sure I can go back and ask for another refund (and probably will) but this is adding insult to injury.

 

Insult? Injury? Seriously???

 

I can not even begin to imagine a situation where I would, for one second, consider it worth my while to create a ticket or pick up the phone to ask for my connects back because some job posting wasn't to my liking. Not only would it cost me more in time to do so than the wretched connects were worth, I'd be mortified to do so.

 

"Not to my liking" is not the same as "deceptive" or "misleading."
If enough people would report problems to Upwork, they might take action to
do something about those problems.

Unfortunately no matter how much Upwork tries to educate clients, there will always be some who provide misleading job descriptions probably because they know they need something, but don't know how to communicate their needs.  

 

As freelancers we have to be wary when responding to posts since they cost money.  Know that a percentage of your connects will be spent on proposals where no one is hired or you will find yourself in these misleading situations.  Consider it part of a freelancer's marketing expense to operate your business.  

 

Hopefully your experience overall is a positive one and you find success on the platform. 


Catharine G wrote:
"Not to my liking" is not the same as "deceptive" or "misleading."
If enough people would report problems to Upwork, they might take action to
do something about those problems.

The only way would be to have an army of highly trained staff who really understand all the many categories of work and thoroughly vetted every sigle job post. As such a move could not lead to any additional income, it would be a massive dead expense.

This would result in a need to sharply increase fees and the cost of connects. 

 

If "enough people" "report" such things (which are not violations of the terms of service, so nothing can be done about them anyway) Support gets even more clogged up than it already is and real problems don't get worked on and costs again rise leading to increased fees.

 

It's stuff like this which will eventually force Upwork to start charging people for Support and I'd be all for that.

 

I think 10 to 20 connects per ticket would serve as a great deterrent against frivolous requests.

Catharine.  To commensurate.  I qualify as an experienced Upwork copywriter.  I have two comments: one of which is a technique.  One of which is just to "share the pain".  I would prefer both be categorized as contributions made at 9pm on a Sunday night, which entails effort to respond.

We type at-- what?  100wpm?  120?  80?  My 8th grade typing teacher would have never predicted this.  (Lol...).  When I get requests, specific or erst-while such, to 'get into someone's head'.  I have a technique that has actually worked well.  I call it a "fast type notes session".

1. I schedule a call.  Video conference, not phone.  When people are on video, they tend to 'slow down' in what they are saying.

2. I ask them for a 'mindsharing' or 'knowledge transfer' or, if one prefers easy going words, which I do. "Let's figure out what is on your mind."

3. Then, in real time: as the person I am communicating with is speaking: I physically type out what they are saying.  Not so much in stenographer style -- but -- to some degree of clarity.

4. Here's the matching point:  set up Screen Share in advance, so the person talking can actually "See the words being typed".   This literally fascinates people -- to see -- in real time -- someone recording their mindshare.

5. I also use a techinque I guess would be caused as "pause, pause, pause".  Then the speaker gets head of the notes I can reasonably take -- they will be on some roll of talking.  What I say in real time is: "pause, pause, pause".  This interrupts the speaker, I usually have to say it three times to stop them so I can catch up in mindshare gathering.  But they are not insulted and I make light of the fact they can think and speak faster than I can 'take notes'.

6. I also use a techinque I call "Apple pie".  Some people in mindshare mode can speak for an hour... two.. three.  It becomes an 'honor' to them to have someone actually listening. I'll share the apple pie technique at the end of the piece in a reply, but for now - it works to shut down mindshare gathering.

As professional, experienced, long-term-in-seat copywriters:  are we responsible for this?  One mindset is 'no, we are not'.  Another is: 'collect the mindshare, let it be seen in real time by typing in screen share, and let the client win at their pace, but one we govern'.

45 minutes of mind-share gathering, at my typing rate of 100wpm with some stops, starts, abbreviations - produces about 3 pages, 600 words of 'source notes'.  The client appreciation factor is through the roof.  Then I can go about my work as a copy writer and those notes are no different to me than research notes.  We research, yes>?

Boomer - who loves ice cream.

(That is my nickname.  Long story.  LOL)

Back to a technique: granted, your post was about clients not owning up to true assignment.  The sub text was "gathering mindshare".  The connection did not match.  Hence, the main topic.  Here's a technique I use, and it works well if (a) one decides to go with the flow and gather some mindshare, listed as work or not - not apparently.

When I get to the end of a fast type notes session: 45 minutes is my max, people can talk for hours -- and I want to gather mindshare not fight it out over what is actually to be done.  I use this parable.

"Wow, you have spoken a lot.  You see my notes.  You know -- apple pie. The first couple of bites -- warm and awesome.  Then about half way through -- it still tastes great.  Getting a little full.  Then toward the end -- it is still great apple pie, but we can't can't eat another bite".

In this notes taking -- I am full of apple"

Which - to note:

1. Makes the mindshare participant laugh
2. Makes it easy to stop mindshare gathering when we are tired
3. And actually works. I am 40 in a row (or so) in this working great to close down the mindshare harvesting.

Do I really say that?   Yes.  Exactly as that.  I actually use the Apple Pie parable, I actually do set up screen share, I actually do try to type in real time, it is not perfect, I do capture mindshare and it ends with a laugh.

Boomer - who loves ice cream.

On apple pie.

tlsanders
Community Member

Catharine, it seems to me that you're quite eager to impute some sort of malice to clients when in fact what you're describing is very much the function of the modern marketplace, where terminology has blurred and clients may not be using the same very precise definitions you seem to rely on.

 

I can assure you that there are a great many people billing themselves as copywriters who consider it a key element of consistent branding to be "inside the head" of the person they're writing for. There are also a great many clients who don't understand the distinctions among ghostwriter, copywriters, content writers (and so on)--and you can hardly blame them, since writers themselves use these terms inconsistently.

 

Of course, the client would not post a link to its blog in the job posting, since this both violates Upwork's TOS and leads to relentless spamming by freelancers who don't want to spend a few pennies to connect. 

I don't think it's malice. It is incompetence.

The company did not link to its own blog. It linked to another blog and
said that was the kind of space they wanted to be in. They have very
specific requirements. If they're not willing to share their requirements,
they shouldn't be here...or else Upwork needs to look at the model of
charging people to apply for what amounts to a pig in a poke.

I'll stand by what I said. It's a different posting. If I have to dig out
ideas, that's a separate project -- it's not revising a sales letter.

You do realize that there are a great many freelancers who are happy to work with those clients, right? 

 

Do you really think the standard for whether or not a client should be on Upwork should be whether or not that client meets your personal standards? 

 

Why not just scroll past a posting that doesn't have enough information to suit your tastes, like the other hundreds of thousands of freelancers do? 

 

Following Tiffany's advice will also

1. keep  you from getting ulcers

2. increase yout speed-reading abilities

3. save time and wrist and finger strain

4. improve your sanity and sense of humor


Tiffany S wrote:

You do realize that there are a great many freelancers who are happy to work with those clients, right? 

 

Do you really think the standard for whether or not a client should be on Upwork should be whether or not that client meets your personal standards? 

 

Why not just scroll past a posting that doesn't have enough information to suit your tastes, like the other hundreds of thousands of freelancers do? 

 


With this in mind, I think an idea that might need to be more clearly conveyed is this: It's not UpWork's business or responsibility to vet your clients;  it's yours.  

I don't know a freelancer who's been working on this board for any reasonable length of time who hasn't been "mislead" by a poorly constructed job posting. Similarly, I don't know a well-seasoned freelancer on this board who hasn't had their time "wasted" in small or large amounts looking into an interesting-sounding but poorly-thought-out (or ridiculously-underfunded!) project.  Or one who hasn't had an interview with someone they decided they couldn't work with.  Thousands of projects get posted on this board every day.  It's your job to decide which ones work for you. 

The other thing I'm going to mention is that jobs in the bricks-and-mortar world are sometimes advertised using ads that are largely copied from other ads online.  So the prospects for these jobs may arrive to interviews for jobs that sound nothing like the ones advertised. Often their not compensated for their lost time or the lost expenses they incur to arrive at these interviews.  

One thing I've learned about postings is that you often can't tell what a good or bad job will be based on the amount of information you're initially provided. I've been disappointed by some jobs and pleasantly surprised by others. It's my job to check them out. If they sound interesting I apply. If the client responds, I have a series of questions I ask to gain more information about what they want. If it doesn't sound good for any reason, I don't take the job. These choices are mine, and they are my responsibility.  If I don't like it, I can stop freelancing here.

There's an Erica Jong quote I like (and hate, at times in equal measure):  

"You take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame."

 



How can you improve a sales letter without getting "into the heads" of the target audience -- knowing their pain points, deeper needs, etc.?  You can't.  Clients who are looking for a copywriter assume the best ones already know that without having to explain Copywriting 101 in their job posting. So If you think "getting into their heads" isn't important for revising a sales letter -- you're confusing copywriting with proofreading.   

 

I've revised many, many sales letters -- and the first thing that I do is learn about the target audience, even for minor changes. Yeah, I "get into their heads." Otherwise, you're merely fixing grammar and spelling mistakes, which is not only what clients who hire copywriters are looking for. 

 

 

Catherine,

 

Your concern has a root cause. Every job board advertises "Get world class experts for pennies on the dollar," and "Get high-paying jobs with global clients." The marketing cannot help but lead to this.

 

Your concern has a solution, but nobody's yet come up with the money to implement it. Make UW a high-power high-tech global staffing agency. Clients can pay to have a designated account manager who will help the client craft the posting and screen responses. The account manager will have nothing in common with a staffing specialist except the same species. Or maybe genus.

 

Charge high annual membership fees for freelancers. Yes, this discriminates against third world freelancers. They still have many other platforms, UW just isn't for them. This was the model used by ProSavvy that eventually became eworks market. It was profitable. Imagine that. It marketed its services differently and understood the basics of freelancing. I still have a client I got thru them twenty years ago.

 

The fundamental is to use one of the top tier global management consulting firms to tell you how to do it, then follow their directions. Make minimal use of algoerithms and maximum use of human intervention. Aim for low volume/high margin work. The first targets need to be former members of these consulting groups, who often advise clients on hiring or find vendors for them. I've found architects, builders, weapons, pilots, aircraft, oxcarts etc. I offered up to elance (now UW) how to get into this $10B US industry, no charge, but "we kow what we're doing. We don't need amateurs' help."

May I comment to one other point, as a colleague.  There is no up or down here.  No "better" or "worse".

Yet again, I have to recite some statistics, which usually gain great ire about 'boasting' or and other comments of negative nature.  I simply state this, as two colleagues would over coffee.

I have suffered through (lol...)  60 or so projects, 2000 or so work hours, some amount of money that does not matter and so on.  I have been here for a while.

We do the same type of work.  I am corporate Revenue Operations writing, pure and simple.  And none of that matters other than to add hopeful validity to this statement:  most of my projects end up having to do very little with their first write-ups.

I can relate why, and again, I am expecting to get hammered on bragging or over-promotion, but for veractity of dialog:  I am also a hiring client.  Dozen projects, etc. etc. etc.

Here's what happens when hiring clients post jobs (usually, some times, at me at least)
- I am not exactly sure what needs to be done
- I am really busy with other work
- I just want to find the great talent and figure it out
- And I am honest, in the above.

I gave up the concept of being a 'copywriter' pure-bred long ago.  Client mentor, listener, helper-of-job-formation.   Clarifier, mover-forward.  Holding-of-the-line.  Negotiator, servant leader.  Upset contractor because this went clearly left and I want it right.

Perhaps with our combined experience which is multiple-decades-class: we both know the basic answer.  (lol...)

Most hiring clients show up without knowing much about what the need, or if they do, it is wrong.

Help them clarify.  Without taking sides, up down, left right.  My tactic with this "figure out what they other guy is thinking".

Sure.  Fast type notes call.  We'll do it pre-job start-up.  Consider it a courtesy.  I'll bill the time back-end if the project proceeds.   I want to figure out if he is thinking clearly, so do you, let's do it in a micro step and I am just trying to be a copywriter.  Seems that might need that to be expanded, let's figure out if I am the one and by the way.  I have an apple pie story to tell".

works... .like a charm.  Weeds out the talkers from the really-do-it-ers. 



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