More insights for the freelancers

26e63ea4 · ‎02-23-2022

That's not new, but I think it's important to share this with the rest of the community, plus sometimes very obvious things for one group aren't obvious for another. So without further ado let me share my thought on the insights and their lack on this platform.

First off, whenever I submit a proposal, - and I'm telling about a well-written, tailored proposal that Upwork advises us to write when applying to jobs - my only hope is that it gets seen and will appeal to the customer, otherwise, again, unless client takes time to inform us about their decision to go with another freelancer or just by rejecting our proposals and submitting the reason, we are left with nothing... Literally no information whatsoever.

People came up with all kinds of "hacks" - writing a proposal very early helps you to get seen and increases your chances of getting at least a response, but that's not a magic trick that will open any door, of course.

The Upwork rating system and how it shows our proposals to the clients is a big secret that remains locked and leaves us questioning our competence, skills, expertise, writing abilities, etc., bc we literally have no information about whether the client ever saw our proposal or not.

Today I spent a good hour or so going through my recent proposals checking if the client ever replied to anyone, hired, and if so, who that lucky one was to at least see and compare - but isn't it something that should be embedded, available to anyone?

Some stats that will show that the proposal was seen, that the client declined it, or the info that the client never logged back to see the proposals after posting the job?

I think it's fair to say, that having some insights makes us stronger, better and enables us to write better proposals.

So with that said, I once again encourage Upwork's Tech and Support team to raise this question to the Stakeholders and think about ways how to improve this outdated and imperfect in all forms system that now doesn't provide almost any information to the freelancer upon clicking the "Send" button.

I hope this question will be supported by many, so if you are a freelancer who is also struggling to get this proposal game figured out, click Kudos or write a comment - I think having a lot of replies helps the Upwork team to see that this is an important question/issue and perhaps put it on the list.

Have a good day and all the best to those who work here!

moonraker · ‎02-23-2022

Artyom S wrote:

I think it's fair to say, that having some insights makes us stronger, better and enables us to write better proposals.

How?

26e63ea4 · ‎02-23-2022

If the client will be able to at least mark your proposal as "read/not interested" or "very high price" or anything like this while archiving this, it'll tell us more about the client's expectations, and we will be able to adjust our approaches

moonraker · ‎02-23-2022

But how would that be useful to you?

That they're not interested says nothing about your proposal. There's a multititude of reasons why a client might no be interested in perfectly good proposals.
That they think your price is too high also tells you nothing useful. Many clients will turn down propsals because of a high price - that doesn't mean you should drop your prices.

Most people here will tell you the best approach is to do your best when sending a propsoal and then forget all about it. And you'll find most of the peple saying so are experienced, successful freelancers who have made the platform work for them.

bundie702 · ‎02-23-2022

"Today I spend a good hour or so going through my recent proposals checking if the client ever replied to anyone, hired, and if so, who that lucky one was to at least see and compare - but isn't it something that should be embedded, available to anyone?"

-----------------

I check my proposal listings for interview and hiring status all the time. It takes less than five minutes, so I don't know why it's taking you an hour. If no hires have been made, there's nothing to be learned. But if someone *was* hired, you'll probably do yourself more good by looking at the profile of the person hired and seeing how their presentation and experience compares to yours than by asking for stats.

26e63ea4 · ‎02-23-2022

I have applied to more than 60 jobs recently, so that's how the number added up to an hour.
Plus. isn't this process frustrating to you too? How come are you ok going through your list of proposals checking if the client interviewed or hired somebody? In case of the hiring it somewhat works - but you will never know what EXACTLY worked in their favor - was it the price, the fact that the freelancer was among the first 3 in the list on the client side, or maybe he was lucky to send the proposal first, and the client saw and immediately responded. You see - too little statistics give no chance us to improve and analyze

petra_r · ‎02-23-2022

Artyom S wrote:
Plus. isn't this process frustrating to you too? How come are you ok going through your list of proposals checking if the client interviewed or hired somebody?

It would be but I just don't, I have exactly 0 interest in what happened to a proposal unless or until a client contacts me back,

Until a client contacts me, I am not hired and can't actually get any meaningful info from looking at the proposal.

I send the proposal and forget all about it. Until I get a response, it's meaningless and I wouldn't waste my time looking at it.

26e63ea4 · ‎02-23-2022

I am thankful for your opinion, guys, but how come are you ok with that? I mean I know lots of people have to play this game daily, and that trying to change the system is likely to fail, but why wouldn't you at least try and support something that in the long run can give you insights and help to understand whether the client looked for the lowest price (even though some can state they look for the Experts), was in the rush and contacted the first freelancer to apply to the job, or just never saw your proposal (that would give you a hint that your proposal most likely landed somewhere in the middle or lower part of the list)

petra_r · ‎02-23-2022

Artyom S wrote:
I am thankful for your opinion, guys, but how come are you ok with that? I mean I know lots of people have to play this game daily, and that trying to change the system is likely to fail, but why wouldn't you at least try and support something that in the long run can give you insight

It wouldn't give me any actionable insight,

Why would I care whether a client read my proposal and didnÄt hire me, or read it 6 times and didn't hire me, or deleted it unread and didn't hire me?

Without a client contacting me, knowing what they did doesn't earn me any money.

Artyom S wrote:
help to understand whether the client looked for the lowest price (even though some can state they look for the Experts), was in the rush and contacted the first freelancer to apply to the job, or just never saw your proposal (that would give you a hint that your proposal most likely landed somewhere in the middle or lower part of the list)

How would that help me? Every client is different. How could I do anything about it? You still can't read the client's mind. And whatever client one did is not of any use because client two is a human being and different.

Ultimately, unless and until a client contacts me, it's completely irrelevant to me.

sjulius09 · ‎02-23-2022

I would think not being hired for a job you applied to represents some form of failure either on your side or the clients. Ultimately, you would want to do better. I would also think there's always something to learn from your failures. It can not be completely irrelevant to anyone trying to improve their proposals.

martina_plaschka · ‎02-23-2022

Julius S wrote:
I would think not being hired for a job you applied to represents some form of failure either on your side or the clients. Ultimately, you would want to do better. I would also think there's always something to learn from your failures. It can not be completely irrelevant to anyone trying to improve their proposals.

Absolutely not. There are thousands of possible reasons why a client didn't hire or hired a different freelancer. None of them will make me change my proposal strategy or anything else.

petra_r · ‎02-23-2022

Julius S wrote:
I would think not being hired for a job you applied to represents some form of failure either on your side or the clients. .

Of course it doesn't and I in no way implied that it did.

Julius S wrote:
I would also think there's always something to learn from your failures. It can not be completely irrelevant to anyone trying to improve their proposals.

What "failures" are you talking about? It can be completely irrelevant because there is nothing actionable or meaningful to be learned from what is suggested.

Every client is different, Every client has different preferences and chooses in a different way. using different criteria. Even if I know that some client opened and read my proposal, that is meaningless if they didn't contact me. How could I do anything about it?

We can (if we desperately want to) see how many people were hired and who they are. That part, I guess, can be mildly interesting, but again, without being a mindreader, nothing much that is really actionable or practically useful can be gained from that either.

martina_plaschka · ‎02-23-2022

Artyom S wrote:
I am thankful for your opinion, guys, but how come are you ok with that? I mean I know lots of people have to play this game daily, and that trying to change the system is likely to fail, but why wouldn't you at least try and support something that in the long run can give you insights and help to understand whether the client looked for the lowest price (even though some can state they look for the Experts), was in the rush and contacted the first freelancer to apply to the job, or just never saw your proposal (that would give you a hint that your proposal most likely landed somewhere in the middle or lower part of the list)

Because it is a waste of time that can be better spent working, sending proposals, drinking coffee, gardening, and everything else.

bundie702 · ‎02-24-2022

Plus. isn't this process frustrating to you too?

No. I'm just curious when I'm not contacted after applying for an assignment I felt I was perfect for.

How come are you ok going through your list of proposals checking if the client interviewed or hired somebody?

Because I respond to very few ads, only those I feel well suited for. Most of my clients invite me to apply. Going through 60 proposals...never!

martina_plaschka · ‎02-23-2022

Today I spend a good hour or so going through my recent proposals checking if the client ever replied to anyone, hired, and if so, who that lucky one was to at least see and compare - but isn't it something that should be embedded, available to anyone?

I don't. I send and forget, and I don't need any reminders of that. The only time I ever want to hear from or see that job posting again is if the client responds with a message or offer.

wescowley · ‎02-23-2022

Martina P wrote:

I don't. I send and forget, and I don't need any reminders of that. The only time I ever want to hear from or see that job posting again is if the client responds with a message or offer.

Same. I used to look at submitted proposals when I was starting out, but I realized pretty quickly it wasn't productive—I couldn't get any actionable information from doing that.

OP: I may be misremembering, but I think some of the metrics you're looking for may be in the new stats page that was briefly rolled out but then pulled back for being a bit off. There's a post in the announcements forum about it.

26e63ea4 · ‎02-23-2022

I'll search for this info. I am an amid user of Upwork, but never was presented with than updated My Stats page - it is the same boring page with almost no useful info that it was before

wlyonsatl · ‎02-23-2022

Artyom S.,

I know it’s frustrating to not get a high level of responses to proposals made, but your best bet is to apply to as many new jobs as you are a good fit for and to not give proposals you have made another thought after you submit them.

I expect the biggest priority for Upwork to decide whether to change the process of freelancers proposing and clients accepting those proposals would be increasing the likelihood of clients finding the freelancers they need. Providing the information you want to see would not help with that. A couple of years ago Upwork said freelancer retention was not a priority because there were already far more freelancers than clients on the Upwork system. Upwork knows how many jobs are posted and what percentage of those jobs Upwork freelancers are eventually engaged on. Upwork is primarily focused on increasing the number of active clients on Upwork and increasing the rate of uptake of freelancers by those clients.

It wouldn't necessarily be helpful for you to know whether clients open/view your proposals because that doesn't tell you anything about the “quality” of your proposals. Clients cannot see the “quality” of your proposals if they don’t view them and the trick to having your proposals viewed is to apply only to jobs that your profile and history on Upwork show you are a “best fit” for. If Upwork’s ranking algorithm doesn’t put your proposals near the top of the ranked proposals list for each job you apply to then clients will have no reason to look at your proposals. The “quality” of your proposals is irrelevant if they are never seen. And any advantage to being an early applicant on a new job posting is erased if the number of applying freelancers increases significantly and your proposal does not stay at the top of the list of applicants.

Even if you know what freelancers have been hired by different clients instead of you, you can’t know why a client chose a particular freelancer over you, so that information is of little use. And knowing that a client didn’t hire any Upwork freelancer won’t help you make better proposals, unless you plan to apply to the same clients’ future new job openings.

The best, but imperfect, solution for you to increase the percentage of clients who reply to your proposals is to try to make sure your profile on Upwork is a great specific fit for the jobs you plan to apply to and is strong enough that at least some potential clients will ask you to submit a proposal for their jobs. It’s impossible to know why any specific client didn’t hire you, so focus on what you can improve about your own profile and the choices you make about which new jobs to apply to.

Good luck!

wlyonsatl · ‎02-23-2022

Yes, Farag S.,

I would crtainly like to know much more about how clients react to my proposals. My wish list in that respect is longer than Artyom's.

But I've been around for a while, as you point out, and I know that I shouldn't expect Upwork to make a significant change to the information available to me about proposals I have already submitted.

So if Upwork decides to provide all of the information I previously mentioned, that would be great. But I know it's better for me, a better use of my time, to understand how Upwork works and tailor my efforts to maximizng my success with new proposals on Upwork within the strict limitations of the current and unlikely to change system.

26e63ea4 · ‎02-23-2022

Thanks, for the tips, and I mostly agree with your statement. But wouldn't it be better if we at least knew what was going on behind the curtain, who exactly were those clients looking at our profiles, whether they have open jobs that resemble my sphere of knowledge, etc.?

If they were enabled to look through the list and when archiving jobs state the reason every time, it would've given us a very good insight on what's wrong or perhaps imperfect. That said, this works when the client sees your proposal, so to begin with I'd suggest adding something like a status "Read/Seen". If your proposal never gets seen, that would mean that for some reason you weren't amongs those marked "Best Fit" and then you can go and see the keywords that are used in the job description, tags and compare with yours, plus see how the title of the work compares to what you do/what kind of service you offer and what kind of jobs you had in the past. This would help, I think. Understanding the system better, applying to those jobs where you most likely will land 1, 2, or the 3rd place thanks to your past works, tags and skills, keywords, etc.

tlbp · ‎02-23-2022

Artyom S wrote:
Thanks, for the tips, and I mostly agree with your statement. But wouldn't it be better if we at least knew what was going on behind the curtain, who exactly were those clients looking at our profiles, whether they have open jobs that resemble my sphere of knowledge, etc.?

If they were enabled to look through the list and when archiving jobs state the reason every time, it would've given us a very good insight on what's wrong or perhaps imperfect. That said, this works when the client sees your proposal, so to begin with I'd suggest adding something like a status "Read/Seen". If your proposal never gets seen, that would mean that for some reason you weren't amongs those marked "Best Fit" and then you can go and see the keywords that are used in the job description, tags and compare with yours, plus see how the title of the work compares to what you do/what kind of service you offer and what kind of jobs you had in the past. This would help, I think. Understanding the system better, applying to those jobs where you most likely will land 1, 2, or the 3rd place thanks to your past works, tags and skills, keywords, etc.

First, client already have the option to indicate a reason for rejecting a freelancer's proposal. Why aren't they? Is it due to friction in the process or do they not wish to disclose?

Second, if you make such selection mandatory, how would you implement the UX? Clients who didn't want to indicate would likely choose the first available answer, thereby skewing the results.

Third, maybe the clients don't want to provide freelancers insights into their hiring process. That could give bidders and advantage to the detriment of the client. (What you are asking for is similar to an email "open" signal which tells marketers whether their target has opened the marketer's email. People don't like that knowledge being shared and email clients are ending the pratice as a result.)

I suggest, with sincerity, that you approach your ideas as a hypothesis that should be carefully vetted with some rigor rather than assumed solutions that will work if only they were implemented. There are many, many steps between having a desire for information and being able to gather accurate, statisticlly significant information.

sofia2008 · ‎02-23-2022

Artyom S wrote:

think about ways how to improve this outdated and imperfect in all forms system that now doesn't provide almost any information to the freelancer upon clicking the "Send" button.

It is not very much different from the conventional marketplace where applicants are sending resumes knowing what the client mentions ahead : «We thank all applicants for their interest, however only those candidates selected for interviews will be contacted.»

26e63ea4 · ‎02-23-2022

So what? Should we stick to the system that embraces "shouting to the emptiness"? I mean I see how it compares, but why not think about how to improve that? Plus, when sending your CV many platforms at least enable their clients (job seekers) with this feature: "Received/CV Downloaded/Seen".

wlyonsatl · ‎02-23-2022

Here's a previous thread that addressed some of what's been mentioned here.

Re: How do we see the bids made by the other... - Upwork Community

marc_compte · ‎02-23-2022

Artyom S wrote:
The Upwork rating system and how it shows our proposals to the clients is a big secret that remains locked and leaves us questioning our competence, skills, expertise, writing abilities, etc., bc we literally have no information about whether the client ever saw our proposal or not.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
Tower of Power had a great song with that title.

If you only have part of the information, you may often draw wrong conclusions and take bad decisions, so it is beter to have no information at all.

It is not enough to know who or how many viewed your proposals. You need to know why they declined you, who were you competing against, have access to their proposals and interviews and know if the client has a thing for your type or prefers another gender, age, nationality, hair length, tattoos or the lack of them. And you also need to know if it was just a feeling thing, you know, it can also happen. Or maybe a combination of any of the above. Not everyone has a clear monolitic reason.

You would need the client to send a full report on your proposal explaining in detail why they picked someone else, and they'd need to be honest. And they would probably want to charge you for it.

It may look like I'm doing satire, but it really is like that.

I can't get all the information I would need to get valid conclusions, and probably not the time either. So, I'd rather have Upwork fix bugs and do other more important stuff, and I'd rather spend my time working for my clients and if I don't have work, improving my skills and trying to find ways to advertise what I can do. Or having some leisure time, which is also a fundamental part of my work.

PS: Spending my leisure time commenting on Upwork's Community Forums is a bit peculiar, I get that.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎02-23-2022

Marc C wrote:
I can't get all the information I would need to get valid conclusions, and probably not the time either. So, I'd rather have Upwork fix bugs and do other more important stuff, and I'd rather spend my time working for my clients and if I don't have work, improving my skills and trying to find ways to advertise what I can do. Or having some leisure time, which is also a fundamental part of my work.

PS: Spending my leisure time commenting on Upwork's Community Forums is a bit peculiar, I get that.

This is it, in a nutshell.

AveryO · ‎02-23-2022

Hi Artyom,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this here. We are testing ways to provide more analytics and statistics, giving freelancers more insight into their platform engagement. The team rolled out the test last week, but it was rolled back due to some backend issues.

If you check Mike's post, we will also be testing proposal insights where indicators will allow you to compare yourself against other freelancers in the same space - indicating if you have been interviewed or hired more or less than others you may consider as your peers. I hope this is the type of insight you were looking to have. If not, don't hesitate to share more information so that we can sound it off to the team.

~ Avery