Need advice about potential client hiring process

[mibrzycki]

I received an invitation to apply for a project from Upwork Talent Specialist. I submitted a proposal and the client requested an interview. The process took place with the 'HR Director' on Skype. I submitted written responses to a document sent to me. The potential client then wanted to hire me. I asked several questions along the way, concerned that we needed to move to the Upwork platform for the Offer/Acceptance/Contract stage, but he stated that this off-platform is their process of getting me equipped to do the work. He then sent an Employment Letter. I asked again why not move to Upwork for a contract process, and that I needed to get advice from the Upwork people as not to get myself into trouble, and wouldn't sign anything until I had some answers.

I tried to contact Upwork directly to get the advice I need, and after two attempts on Upwork support chat (where they promise to email me), I've gotten no help from them. Can someone please advise me on how to handle this client?

Thanks!

[data_divas]

This is not a client, this is a scammer.  Stop communicating with them and remember you are not allowed to communicate off of Upwork until a contract is in place.  No Skype no Telegram no Google Hangout only Upwork. 

Good luck 

[mibrzycki]

Thank you. I have seen other posts that say some clients will want to use their own platforms for interview process. So it’s confusing.

I appreciate the feedback.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Mary B wrote:
Thank you. I have seen other posts that say some clients will want to use their own platforms for interview process. So it’s confusing.

I appreciate the feedback.

---

Where have you seen such posts? On the UW Community Forum? Or out in the wild, on FB or Reddit or whatever platforms/channels the scammers and their enablers might use to create the impression that it's normal? 

It's a fact that UW's Help & Support pages are somewhat convoluted and opaque from the perspective of a new user trying to learn the basics. Be that as it may, you need in to dig in and do the tedious work of learning how the platform works. 

Communicating with a prospective client by any means other than the UW Message Center is strictly forbidden. This rule is in place to protect inexperienced FLs like you from scams. 

Please read this post before you do anything else. 

https://community.upwork.com/t5/New-to-Upwork/List-of-red-flags-for-scams/m-p/1017044/highlight/true...

[tlbp]

---

Phyllis G wrote:

---

Mary B wrote:
Thank you. I have seen other posts that say some clients will want to use their own platforms for interview process. So it’s confusing.

I appreciate the feedback.

---

Where have you seen such posts? On the UW Community Forum? Or out in the wild, on FB or Reddit or whatever platforms/channels the scammers and their enablers might use to create the impression that it's normal? 

It's a fact that UW's Help & Support pages are somewhat convoluted and opaque from the perspective of a new user trying to learn the basics. Be that as it may, you need in to dig in and do the tedious work of learning how the platform works. 

Communicating with a prospective client by any means other than the UW Message Center is strictly forbidden. This rule is in place to protect inexperienced FLs like you from scams. 

Please read this post before you do anything else. 

https://community.upwork.com/t5/New-to-Upwork/List-of-red-flags-for-scams/m-p/1017044/highlight/true...

---

I think it tends to get a bit confusing when an Upwork Talent Specialist facilitates the introduction between freelancer and scammer. It might be time to retire that particular service if they are going to aid and abet scammers (unintentional or not).

[AveryO]

Hi Mary, 

Thank you for sharing this here. I'm currently looking into this further.

Please note that users cannot communicate off Upwork until a contract has been set up on your account (the client sent an offer, and you accepted it), and only Enterprise clients are exempted from this.

It would be best to read up on the "Safety First!" section of the freelancer resources we have compiled, these tips for avoiding questionable jobs, and this article for more information about working safely through Upwork. 

[mibrzycki]

Thank you for this.

[pgiambalvo]

No comment on a scam job being sent to this freelancer by an Upwork Talent Specialist? So not only does Upwork not stop scams from being posted, they actively help disseminate them and point freelancers to them. Unbelievable.

[a_lipsey]

The OP's question was how to handle the client, not the talent specialist. 

[pgiambalvo]

Yes, I know,  But how do you feel about Upwork Talent Specialists being able to invite freelancers to apply for scam jobs? Should there be any additional vetting of the client before they can do this? Upwork going above and beyond to pro-actively deliver freelancers scams just seems like a bad idea to me.

[a_lipsey]

---

Peter G wrote:

Yes, I know,  But how do you feel about Upwork Talent Specialists being able to invite freelancers to apply for scam jobs? Should there be any additional vetting of the client before they can do this? Upwork going above and beyond to pro-actively deliver freelancers scams just seems like a bad idea to me.

---

I think first and foremost we should be answering the OPs question. If you want to create another thread to debate Talent Specialists, well, there have been many of those over the years, so knock your socks off. 

As Avery mentioned, you cannot predict what someone will do when you're not watching. I had a very good client who paid a lot of money on Upwork who decided they were going to break TOS, close their account and force all their freelancers to work off platform. They forgot that I can kick them to the curb as a client and report them, which I did. But do you think Upwork could predict a client who probably had paid at least $100k to freelancers was going to violate TOS like that? No. 

The argument for Upwork to do more loses credibility when it loses touch with what they can reasonably do. We know there are some things they can reasonably do that they are not, but we cannot ask them to be omniscient. 

[petra_r]

---

Peter G wrote:

But how do you feel about Upwork Talent Specialists being able to invite freelancers to apply for scam jobs?

---

What in the world makes you think that the talent specialist could have known that the job post was going to turn into a scam?

---

Peter G wrote:

Should there be any additional vetting of the client before they can do this?

---

Why?

---

Peter G wrote: Upwork going above and beyond to pro-actively deliver freelancers scams

---

That's not what is happening. Nobody in their right mind would make such a ludicrous leap.

And once again, so much for your grand declaration that you're going to give it a rest for a few weeks...

[tlbp]

---

Petra R wrote:

---

Peter G wrote:

But how do you feel about Upwork Talent Specialists being able to invite freelancers to apply for scam jobs?

---

What in the world makes you think that the talent specialist could have known that the job post was going to turn into a scam?

---

Peter G wrote:

Should there be any additional vetting of the client before they can do this?

---

Why?

---

Peter G wrote: Upwork going above and beyond to pro-actively deliver freelancers scams

---

That's not what is happening. Nobody in their right mind would make such a ludicrous leap.

And once again, so much for your grand declaration that you're going to give it a rest for a few weeks...

---

Put me in the "not in my right mind" category then. 

[petra_r]

---

Tonya P wrote:

---

Petra R wrote:

---

---

Peter G wrote: Upwork going above and beyond to pro-actively deliver freelancers scams

That's not what is happening. Nobody in their right mind would make such a ludicrous leap.

---

Put me in the "not in my right mind" category then. 

---

Come on... There is a HUGE difference between them inviting a freelancer to submit a proposal to a job post that later turns out to be a scam job and going above and beyond (above and beyond what?) in order to deliberately send scams to freelancers.

I have little to no time for the whole talent-specialist program the way it is, but I very much doubt they sit there and gleefully rub their little hands thinking "Oh look, it's a scam, let's get lots of victims for it..."

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Tonya P wrote:

---

---

Put me in the "not in my right mind" category then. 

---

It's definitely concerning and Avery said that she's going to investigate. But not all posts are obvious scams. I was looking through my job feed last night and there were a bunch of things that looked dubious. I flagged the more obvious ones ("contact me immediately on WhatsApp" and that sort of thing), but those were only a small percentage. There were others that had no obvious violations, just sounded "off". I mean, an improbably high budget combined with being a new client looks suspicious, but maybe it's a placeholder to attract attention, or maybe the client doesn't know what things should cost. Who knows? I've got more connects than I know what do to with, so I went ahead and applied to some of the dubious ones, thinking that if they invited me to Skype then I'd be able to report them. But nobody did, so either they were legit clients who weren't interested in me, or they were scammers who knew that somebody with my track record wouldn't be a good mark. I have no way of knowing, so I didn't flag them. So if a TS sees that kind of job post, how are they supposed to know that it's a scam, when they probably have less experience than I do? How would Upwork go about vetting every new client? Asking for references? Video verification? It would be too time-consuming and costly.

Some people keep saying that it would be easy for Upwork to stop the scammers if only they did this or that, but I just don't see their reasoning. If Upwork could easily stop the scammers, then surely they would have done it by now? So either you think that Upwork is evil and deliberately wants to harm freelancers, or you understand that it's not easy. I'd like to think that a sensible person could only believe the latter.

[sparkesusan]

I agree that Upwork would if they could. Freelancers also need to do their due diligence on their own, as they are a business in themselves. Upwork doesn't take on the role of "nanny." Do your own checking and research. Find out what the terms of service are and follow them. It's up to the freelancer to watch out what they're applying for.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Peter G wrote:

No comment on a scam job being sent to this freelancer by an Upwork Talent Specialist? So not only does Upwork not stop scams from being posted, they actively help disseminate them and point freelancers to them. Unbelievable.

---

I hate walls of text but I feel one coming on.

One more time, with extra emphasis: It's the FL's responsibility to discern the difference between legitimate clients and fraudsters. That's the reality whether we are finding clients via Upwork or any other online platform or in the brick-and-mortar world.

UW verifies, to the best of its ability, that a FL is the person she/he claims to be and that a client's payment method is valid. Beyond that, we are all on our own. It would be terrific if UW invested more attention and resources into making sure new FLs are equipped and prepared for what they are leaping into, especially with regard to recognizing and avoiding scams but also when it comes to delivering as consummate professionals and not disappointing clients. Some of us have been begging for that for years. Scammers proliferate on the platform because it's worth their while -- there's a steady supply of FLs with enough naivete, greed, and/or general fecklessness to make it worthwhile. That will be the case as long as any sentient being can create a profile and dive in headfirst with no reconnaissance of rules, policies, and best practices. Many new UW users take the initiative to learn, evidenced by the kudos I and others periodically get on old posts, sometimes going back years, from new UW FLs who are clearly doing the homework required to understand the platform and how to use it safely and profitably. 

There's no question UW could do a better job of filtering certain types of scams and improve response on flagged job posts. But ultimately, the problem is the food supply. I've been FLing for longer than I'm prepared to admit in public and I opened my UW account nearly six years ago. There's no question in my mind there are more scammers now than there used to be. My anecdotal impression is the uptick has tracked directly with the effects of the pandemic on the worldwide workforce -- more people separating from W-2 situations, for whatever reason, and deciding to give FLing a go without understanding anything about what that entails in terms of operating a business. So we have FL platforms overrun with people who bring employee mindsets and think it's going to work like a vending machine.

As for 'vetting' clients, nobody who is consistently earning on the platform thinks it's a good idea to inject any friction into the client experience. We welcome all comers -- leave it to us to sort out the BS from the viable opportunities. We have to do it with our off-UW clients and in some ways, it's easier here (and in some ways, more challenging).

UW does not and never will make a point of warning new users about hazards. But honestly, anybody who doesn't have the gumption and initiative to suss out how things work and where pitfalls might lie, is probably not going to have much success as an independent contractor anyway. Read Darwin.

[40809c98]

But if upwork finds out the client listed on its site was a scam and charged the freelancer all these interaction fees, maybe it would be the right thing to return the fees (or credits) to the freelancer, as the freelancer did not get obtain any benefit at all.

[sofia2008]

If a Freelancer paid «fees» to a scammer, it means the Freelancer broke the rules by communicating outside of Upwork before being properly hired, and most likely did money transactions outside of Upwork's platform with someone they met on the platform. Upwork will never return fees (or credit) to support a freelancer who broke the rules in such manner.

[40809c98]

They didn't pay the scammer.  Freelancers use these credits for the initial contact with a potential client.. That means we pay.  If it turns out to be a scam, don't you think those credits or whatever you call them should be refunded?

[40809c98]

We do not establish the initial contact until Upwork gets something. These credits are the method of payment.  

[m_terrazas]

---

Carol M wrote:

They didn't pay the scammer.  Freelancers use these credits for the initial contact with a potential client.. That means we pay.  If it turns out to be a scam, don't you think those credits or whatever you call them should be refunded?

---

If Upwork closes a job because it's a scam, it will give you back the connects you used.

[sofia2008]

Sorry, I was confused by the interpretation of «interaction fees», and then «credits». What you are refering to are called «Connects».

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Carol M wrote:

But if upwork finds out the client listed on its site was a scam and charged the freelancer all these interaction fees, maybe it would be the right thing to return the fees (or credits) to the freelancer, as the freelancer did not get obtain any benefit at all.

---

That is exactly what happens when UW takes down a job post for any ToS violation: FLs who submitted proposals to it get their connects refunded. (I assume that's what you're referring to as "all these interaction fees" -- the cost of connects used to submit a proposal, ranging from 15 to 90 cents in total.) 

[feed_my_eyes]

They do return connects if the job is taken down as a scam.

[wescowley]

---

Phyllis G wrote:

---

One more time, with extra emphasis: It's the FL's responsibility to discern the difference between legitimate clients and fraudsters. That's the reality whether we are finding clients via Upwork or any other online platform or in the brick-and-mortar world.

UW verifies, to the best of its ability, that a FL is the person she/he claims to be and that a client's payment method is valid. Beyond that, we are all on our own. It would be terrific if UW invested more attention and resources into making sure new FLs are equipped and prepared for what they are leaping into, especially with regard to recognizing and avoiding scams but also when it comes to delivering as consummate professionals and not disappointing clients.

---

I keep clicking on the kudo button but it won't go up anymore.

[AveryO]

Hi Peter, 

I want to point out that there are cases where we are unable to foresee a violation based on a client's account and job post, and this is one of those cases. I have reported this to the team for their further review. 

[pgiambalvo]

Thanks, Avery.

[fkupwork]

From my experience, I can say that this happens because UpWork hires the people with the lowest rate for those roles and a segment of talent specialists can't even read the job post and understand what is required!

They just send invites to freelancers randomly based on the skills selected! I've come across both effective and useless Talent Specialists. UpWork gets what it pays for! I do not know though that how these talent specialists get selected!

[fkupwork]

My advice is to state to your client clearly that you want to work via UpWork only! Report the job post accordingly regardless of the fact whether you embark on a contract. 

More than 50% of UpWork Talent Specialists don't know what they are doing. Neither UpWork knows what they are doing. They are just there! I don't know why! 

In fact, I will be more cautious of an invitation to interview when it is routed to me via an UpWork Talent Specialist instead of receiving it from the client directly. Why? Because some UpWork Talent Specialists can't even read the job post properly. 

Tell your client that when they are interacting with UpWork, they have to adjust their tech stack and work environment around UpWork not by eliminating UpWork. If they don't know what they are doing educate them about how UpWork Team App and the platform communications can benefit them. 

Extra Advice: Do not take up a client that you feel can harm your UpWork reputation! Further down the line, you will develop an instinct to identify which clients know what they are doing and which clients don't know what they are doing. Some clients like and seek feedback to make the most out of UpWork. But there is a demographic and segment that tries to derail the platform and doesn't know what they are doing. It's not about accepting all the offers! It's about knowing which offers to decline!

[bundie702]

I had asked the question yesterday if the Upwork staff who determine how many connects it will take to apply to a particular job actually look at the text of these job postings. I was invited to a job that contained the words (I'm paraphrasing here) "hiring process," which made me suspicious (along with the usual new client joining Upwork that very day and no hiring history). I expressed interest to see if I was right, and sure enough, within 10 minutes I was instructed to go to Google Hangouts to meet with the "hiring manager." I reported the posting, and it's been taken down. If I was suspicious, I'd think the person who determined it would take 6 connects to apply to it would have been as well, but nooooo. Maybe I'm wrong about how this works, but surely somebody has to determine how many connects a job will cost applicants...? Is it asking too much that they do something? I dunno...maybe  send a phony response before it goes to the public and see if a Google Hangouts interview invitation is forthcoming? Ask for some sort of confirmation of identity? This is such a huge problem for so many people...

[petra_r]

---

Bettye U wrote:

I'd think the person who determined it would take 6 connects to apply to it would have been as well, but nooooo. Maybe I'm wrong about how this works, but surely somebody has to determine how many connects a job will cost applicants...?..

---

There is no such person. It's an algorithm.

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Bettye U wrote:

Maybe I'm wrong about how this works, but surely somebody has to determine how many connects a job will cost applicants...?

---

I believe it's automatically determined by the client's budget and the length of the contract, and also goes up or down depending on how many freelancers have applied (i.e. sometimes the number of required connects goes down because hardly anyone has applied). With dozens of jobs being posted every minute of every day, it would be extremely time consuming and costly for Upwork to vet clients. I guess the question is, how much more of a service charge would you be willing to pay for Upwork to vet every client? I'd rather keep my fees down and do my own vetting.

[bundie702]

" With dozens of jobs being posted every minute of every day, it would be extremely time consuming and costly for Upwork to vet clients. I guess the question is, how much more of a service charge would you be willing to pay for Upwork to vet every client? I'd rather keep my fees down and do my own vetting."

----------

So would I, Christine. Thanks for explaining how it works.

[pgiambalvo]

I'd rather have my fees increased and have Upwork do better vetting for everyone.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Peter G wrote:

I'd rather have my fees increased and have Upwork do better vetting for everyone.

---

I wouldn't. Why should I pay more to support increased vetting which still won't solve the problem?  If new FLs would take the time to understand what they're doing and complying with the ToS, they'd stop getting entangled in scams and the frequency of scam posts would decrease. I did, when I joined. So do hundreds and thousands of other FLs every week, month, quarter. We only hear from the ones who don't, who leap in thinking they can figure it out as they go along and if not, then UW will bail them out. I'm not interested in giving up one dime of my hard-earned money to enable more of that kind of behavior when it won't solve anything anyway.

[data_divas]

Raising fees for this won't solve the problem and cost those of us who know how to avoid these scam posts money.

If Upwork would simply post a notice "Do not communicate off of Upwork until you have a contract" warning on the proposal page and automatically block job posts that have phone numbers and email addresses 90% of this would be solved.

As has been explained time and time again, most of these people that post scam jobs cannot be vetted, you'd weed out the new legitimate clients from the fakes.  Again for those in the back, the scam clients CANNOT BE VETTED.

[pgiambalvo]

If they can vet freelancers, they can vet clients.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Peter G wrote:

If they can vet freelancers, they can vet clients.

---

Can they? Vet freelancers, I mean. They certainly aren't doing it effectively. There's a whole cottage industry teaching would-be FLs how to set up fake profiles with stolen overview copy, stolen photographs, stolen portfolio materials. The platform is overrun with them, on top of the ones who are not here to run scams but are simply clueless and unwilling to learn how it works before jumping in. Otherwise, we wouldn't see so many posts asking how to get paid for work submitted without a contract. 

Meanwhile, I don't want UW trying to vet clients. I don't want them injecting any unnecessary friction whatsoever into a client's experience approaching the platform. I can do my own vetting. Anybody who's not equipped to do that or at the very least, willing to learn to do that has absolutely no business trying to FL in the first place. They're just going to get into trouble, waste time and money, disappoint clients, and contribute to bad buzz for teh platform.

[feed_my_eyes]

I don't know why you keep saying this. Upwork does not vet freelancers beyond matching a face to a name, and even that doesn't happen until the freelancer wins at least one contract, which is sometimes too late. It does nothing to stop freelancers from scamming clients; even when some of them do have their accounts banned, they manage to start new accounts or "rent" accounts from other freelancers. There's no reason to believe that a scamming client wouldn't be able to do the same thing, even if they were made to go through video verification.