Need help with file a dispute against difficu...

nawazm12 · ‎07-13-2018

I have my first job which is my bad luck I'd say. I have done and delivered more than 80% of work to my client, and requested partial payment, he denies my request. Contract is nearly $500 bucks, and I requested $300 which is 60% of total contract.

Here, problem to working with this client is they are not sure of what they are looking for exactly. They request same kind of changes time by time and say that "work is done complete yet.. please finish the work".

I submitted payment request 3 times, talk to them on call and tried to make them understand that I'll work for sure, but I have a need of payment which you should understand. But they are really greedy and have bad intentions with their workers, even in their company 2 of their employes have left the job because of their behaviour which I came to know after having bad experience to me.

So kindly help me with how can I file dispute to this client and get paid safely.

Thank You!

g_vasilevski · ‎07-13-2018

Hi Nawaz,

I`m sorry to hear about the bad experience you have. To learn more about filling a dispute check out this Help Article. You can also file a dispute by contacting our customer support and attaching all evidence on a ticket. Thank you.

~ Goran

imakeinternet · ‎07-13-2018

Unfortunately there is nothing to dispute. You failed to complete the job in full for a fixed price contract. Keep this in mind for future fixed price jobs that you accept. You will spend more time fighting a senseless dispute than you would have finishing the job. I mean no disrespect. Sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and get the job done. Next time, set up milestones instead of requesting to be paid when the job is complete.

wlyonsatl · ‎07-13-2018

Hi, Nawaz.

I assume this is a fixed price job.

Did you set up more than one milestone for payments in your original contract? If you are new to Upwork, you should know that it's best to set up multiple, very specific milestones for your fixed price projects, if possible. This allows you to submit Milestone A's work and then tell the client you'll move on to Milestone B once payment is released by the client on Milestone A and (s)he has put money in escrow for Milestone B.

Under this arrangement, you don't have to complete a job before you receive any payment for your hard work. Having only a single milestone allows a fraudulent or unreasonable client to have a lot of control of when and whether you get paid anything; using multiple milestones gives you a little better assurance you'll be paid at least a portion of your payments from even the most obstinate client, or at least assure you will only do a portion of the work on the project before finding out the client is unreasonable in their actual requirements for the project.

Mission creep - ongoing changes to a client's original requirements that go beyond the original arrangement with the freelancer but for which no additional pay is offered by the client - is not uncommon on fixed price projects. It's harder for a client to benefit from mission creep on hourly projects.

I have found that too many clients on Upwork do not fully understand their own projects. Some of these clients will try to shoehorn new requirements into the original requirements, which is fine as long as they are willing to pay for the additional work. This is easier for them to do on a fixed price contract and much harder for them to do on hourly projects.

Also, on all fixed price jobs try to avoid submitting your work to mark completion of each milestone more than once. Each time you re-submit your work to a client, the time the client has to either release payment to you for that milestone or dispute the work gets automatically extended under Upwork's rules.

Good luck.

prestonhunter · ‎07-13-2018

This is the freelancer's fault. Not the client's. The freelancer should have finished the project in this instance. The client does not owe the freelancer anything.

The big mistake here was that the freelancer did not break the project down into smaller tasks. It is the freelancer's responsibility to instruct the client to do that.

petra_r · ‎07-13-2018

It is also inappropriate to request part of a milestone before the milestone is complete.

That is the whole POINT of a milestone.

The client may (or may not be) a pain to deal with but there is nothing to dispute as the milestone is not complete so there is nothing to request. 80% completed means - Milestone is not finished.

As Preston said: The OP failed to get the contract that would have allowed for interim milestones with interim payments.

wlyonsatl · ‎07-13-2018

At any rate, Nawaz, I hope you now understand how to set up fixed price milestones on your future Upwork projects. When you first start using Upwork all of the nuances of how things work are no apparent - you'll learn as you go.

Before you complain further to the client or ask Upwork support for help, I suggest you complete the project ASAP. If the full payment for the project has been paid into escrow by the client, completing the client will allow you to submit the completed work and legitimately request full payment. If the client refuses, then (s)he has to explain why to you and to Upwork support.

As things stand now, you have no reason to request payment from the client.

bobafett999 · ‎07-13-2018

Often the buyers mistakenly or purposefully believe that fixed price contracts gives them the right to unlimited revisions.

And if the contract is not specific enough you can not do anything about it. Suck it up and do it with a reminder that you have changed stuff 1,000 times and this will be the final revision after which you won't do it anymore. Of course you will not get any money and will have a bad review.

In fixed price contracts even if things were spelled out the buyer can essentially make you work for ever, change goal post, get more work out of you, refuse to pay you, threaten you with bad feed back Upwork meditation can not help you - unless you fork out almost $300 and go to arbitration. No one can only you have to decide.

For this one you seemed to have dug hole all by yourself.

Next time set up the project in milestones, specify number of revisions and try to front load them. Do not work on the next milestone unless you have been paid for the previous one. Many freelancers( just like real world) ask for upfront money and they get it too.

prestonhunter · ‎07-13-2018

What I do...

Client wants this pretty big task done. It has 10 parts to it. Each one has its own complexities. They show me the full input file and ask for a fixed-price quote.

I simply tell them that I do know how to do the work and want to do it for them, but I can't do it all as one big milestone.

I ask them to create a contract for the first part. Just 1 of the 10 parts. They create the contract, I do the work as quickly and as expertly as I can and give them the results. They see that I'm doing a good job at a fair price and want me to continue the work.

I ask them to close this contract and set up a new one for Part #1 (or you could ask them to set up a second milestone).

This works out better for BOTH the client and freelancer.

But you can't expect the client to do this. Freelancers need to take charge of breaking things down and defining individual contracts/milestones.

wlyonsatl · ‎07-13-2018

If the client has fully funded a milestone and the freelancer submits the completed work for that milestone, then the client should release payment of the amount in escrow when the work is submitted.

Whether the freelancer and client like each other is irrelevant.

If the client refuses to release escrow and the freelancer sees no reason to do additional work for no additional pay, the client has to explain to the freelancer and, ultimately, to Upwork support why escrow should not be released after the 14 day review period is over, right?

I haven’t been involved in arbitration in quite a while, but doesn’t Upwork support first review the contract and work submitted and notify both freelancer and client whether they recommend the full amount of escrow, a portion of that amount or nothing should be paid to the freelancer? What if the client doesn’t agree with Upwork’s opinion? Is the freelancer forced to go to arbitration, even if Upwork agrees the client is wrong to withhold payment? (If so, the system is ripe for abuse by unscrupulous clients, especially on low value projects.)

If Upwork’s fee for arbitration is $300 then arbitration is not a meaningful option for the freelancer on a project whose total value is not well above $300. I don’t remember seeing any public information breaking down the value of projects completed on Upwork each year, but I’d be surprised if at least 40% - 50% are not worth less than $300, so arbitration is not even really a usable tool to freelancers on a substantial percentage of Upwork projects.

bobafett999 · ‎07-13-2018

@Will L wrote:

I haven’t been involved in arbitration in quite a while, but doesn’t Upwork support first review the contract and work submitted and notify both freelancer and client whether they recommend the full amount of escrow, a portion of that amount or nothing should be paid to the freelancer? What if the client doesn’t agree with Upwork’s opinion? Is the freelancer forced to go to arbitration, even if Upwork agrees the client is wrong to withhold payment? (If so, the system is ripe for abuse by unscrupulous clients, especially on low value projects.)

No. The upwork mediation service has no teeth they make no decision or go through your contract. They are basically a postperson. So in a nutshell rather than you and client **Edited for Community Guidelines**. Stubborn buyers may not and will not make any compromises. Normally the freelancer has to yeild.

wlyonsatl · ‎07-13-2018

If that’s all true, then Upwork’s mediation and arbitration services are of no value to freelancers dealing with non-paying clients on projects not worth well above $300.

Yet another reason to only do hourly projects (where arbitration can decide not to refund client payments already made) and higher value projects (where the gamble of spending $300 on an uncertain outcome can be worthwhile), but not everyone has that choice.

bobafett999 · ‎07-13-2018

@Will L wrote:
If that’s all true, then Upwork’s mediation and arbitration services are of no value to freelancers dealing with non-paying clients on projects not worth well above $300.

Yet another reason to only do hourly projects (where arbitration can decide not to refund client payments already made) and higher value projects (where the gamble of spending $300 on an uncertain outcome can be worthwhile), but not everyone has that choice.

That is true. The mediation has no teeth, but arbitration decision is binding. Now if a freelancer believes that they have fullfilled the contract they can call buyer's bluff and pony up the $300. You can't go to arbitration unless you have finished the mediation dance.

It also costs buyer $300 and Upwork $300.

1. If the buyer does not go to arbitration you win. You get back your $300 + escrow amount and client can't leave a feedback.

2. If he does go (payes his $300) and you win you get money is escrow. But you lost $300.

3. If he wins he gets the money in escrow. You lose $300.

The hourly jobs only have protection only if it is tracked with their APP and the is a funded contract with verified billing(only in this case Upwork eats the cost after determining that you were working on the project with reasonable activity level). But here too the buyer can threaten to leave a bad feedback in lieu of reducing price or asking for refund (it has happened to me).

wlyonsatl · ‎07-13-2018

Yeah, I remember threatening an unscrupulous client with arbitration if he didn't pay me. He knew his case for non-payment was non-existent and was at least smart enough to realize he didn't want to throw an extra $300 into a losing case.

I think Upwork would substantially lower its caseload on arbitration and provide better service to honest clients and freelancers if they'd move to a "loser pays all the fees" arrangement. But I suspect making $600 per arbitration is a net money maker for Upwork.

petra_r · ‎07-13-2018

Will L wrote: But I suspect making $600 per arbitration is a net money maker for Upwork.

What in the WORLD are you talking about?

Arbitration COSTS Upwork $ 291... You do understand that Arbitration is an independent 3rd party, yes? The fee for which is split 3-way, between the client, the freelancer, and Upwork?

@Will L wrote:

Yet another reason to only do hourly projects (where arbitration can decide not to refund client payments already made)

There is no arbitration on hourly contracts.

Seriously, the last few posts contain so much mis-information it simply blows the mind.

wlyonsatl · ‎07-13-2018

Well, Petra, you have made it obvious here that you are very close to Upwork and know a lot of information not available to the average freelancer, which is great when you share on this board information we would not otherwise have.

I certainly had no idea you know Upwork's specific operating costs, nor did I know each Upwork arbitration is handled by an independent third party that charges Upwork $891 per arbitration.

I did once have Upwork deduct from my hourly project part of their loss on a client who didn't pay Upwork in full for my hourly charges, and no arbitration was offered there. I have had so few disputes with clients that I am certain I do not know as much as you do about either mediation or arbitration,

So, in the interest of giving everyone who reads this thread completely accurate information, please feel free to make any corrections you wish to my posts here. It's all about sharing knowledge so everyone can benefit, right?

kochubei_valeria · ‎07-13-2018

Will and Prashant,

Please refer to Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions available to all users here. That page contains all information about Upwork dispute process for fixed-price contracts and arbitration, including fees that are paid by all parties.

~ Valeria

wlyonsatl · ‎07-13-2018

Thank you for that link, Valeria.

I don't think I posted any information here that contradicts thw information you linked to, but I am looking forward to Petra pointing out the specific error of my ways.

richard_wein · ‎07-13-2018

If Nawaz's client is trying to force him to do more work than agreed to, by asking for an unreasonable number of changes, then at some point he should be able to stop work, submit a request for payment of an appropriate amount, and if it's refused, start a dispute to obtain payment for the work he's done. That said, he says he is willing to continue with the job, and I don't think he can do both: continue work and dispute at the same time.

petra_r · ‎07-13-2018

@Will L wrote:

I certainly had no idea you know Upwork's specific operating costs, nor did I know each Upwork arbitration is handled by an independent third party that charges Upwork $891 per arbitration.

Then maybe posting how Upwork makes $ 600 from every Arbitration was at best "unwise?"

I don't and do not need to know anything about Upwork's specific operating costs, I simply don't post stuff I make up as I go along the way you do. If I am not sure about something I look it up using the same resources you have at your disposal, but presumably making things up that fit your "point" is more entertaining for you.

The information you "had no idea" about (but chose to post about nevertheless) is all here

"nor did I know each Upwork arbitration is handled by an independent third party"

"that charges Upwork $891 per arbitration."

Will L wrote: I have had so few disputes with clients that I am certain I do not know as much as you do about either mediation or arbitration,

I've never had any dispute, any mediation, let alone arbitration. I simply believe in not posting stuff I (and I quote) "have no idea" about.

wlyonsatl · ‎07-14-2018

Petra,

I don't regularly review Upwork's terms in regards to dispute assistance and arbitration because I very rarely have serious disputes with my clients. I did go re-read that section, following Valeria's useful link to the most recent version dated April 20, 2018. I see there that Upwork now discloses its Fees in the last paragraph of that section. Yay for Upwork!

Now, what else did I get wrong in my posts on this thread that Nawaz and other new freelancers on Upwork need to know about?

Thanks in advance.

Will

bobafett999 · ‎07-13-2018

@Petra R wrote:

Seriously, the last few posts contain so much mis-information it simply blows the mind.

Petra please correct my mis-information. I wrote what I understand.

kat303 · ‎07-13-2018

@Nawaz M wrote:
I have my first job which is my bad luck I'd say. I have done and delivered more than 80% of work to my client, and requested partial payment, he denies my request. Contract is nearly $500 bucks, and I requested $300 which is 60% of total contract.
First of all, it is your bad luck because you did not set up the contract correctly. On quick jobs, that may take only a few hours, it's ok to have just one milestone and get paid a lump sum at the end of the job. Otherwise, a job should be broken down into several milestones. That way not only do you get paid partially, but it is a way to know that you (a freelancer) are doing the work correctly.

You can't have a job with one milestone, complete just 80% of the job/milestone and ask for partial payment. You need to finish the entire job, 100%. Also, in your contract you need to specify and make it known the client on how many corrections, or revisions you will do. And of course, if the corrections are your fault, then you need to fix them, no matter how many or how long it takes.

Once you complete 100% of the job, correct any of your mistakes, and fulfilled the number of revisions specified in the contract, then and the client wants endless revisions, or free work, then you have a leg to stand on.
Here, problem to working with this client is they are not sure of what they are looking for exactly. They request same kind of changes time by time and say that "work is done complete yet.. please finish the work".

I submitted payment request 3 times, talk to them on call and tried to make them understand that I'll work for sure, but I have a need of payment which you should understand. But they are really greedy and have bad intentions with their workers, even in their company 2 of their employes have left the job because of their behaviour which I came to know after having bad experience to me.
This client is not going to give you partial payment, for partial work. You need to finish 100% of the requirements of the contract. Then if the client becomes unreasonable you can let them know that you'll finish this last revision, and if then need more they can open a new HOURLY contract for as many revisions as they want.

So kindly help me with how can I file dispute to this client and get paid safely.

IMO, you can't file a dispute because you didn't finish the job. Only if you finish 100% of the requirements, and can show that then you can you file a dispute.

Thank You!

Need help with file a dispute against difficult client