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tina7777
Community Member

New User. Interview.Recommending a friend.

Hello to everyone.

I am very new on UpWork and I am confused about how it does work.

If someone response to my  proposal, do I have a chance to descuss the project in details and have an interview? 

The price of proposal is already fixed, however the details are usually not desclosed. I am looking for bookkeeping or accounting jobs. Therefore, it is vital to know the details.

Can I recommend some one for  the job/project if I feel the other professional be a better fit?

Should this person be a UpWork user, or you can send the person's information directly to a client?

 

 

22 REPLIES 22
prestonhunter
Community Member

re: "If someone response to my proposal, do I have a chance to discuss the project in details and have an interview?"

 

Yes.

You can take as long as you need during the "interview" phase. This does not obligate you to do anything.

 

re: "The price of proposal is already fixed, however the details are usually not disclosed."

 

The price in the proposal is simply a placeholder, an opportunity to have a discussion. It is not a final price. The client and freelancer can come to an agreement about a final price.

 

re: "I am looking for bookkeeping or accounting jobs. Therefore, it is vital to know the details."

 

Freelancers may bid on any jobs that they want to bit on. If a freelancer wants to start a conversation about a project, she may bid. If she isn't interested, she doesn't need to bid.

 

Freelancers can not ask questions before they bid. They can bid, and then if the client replies, they can ask questions. Freelancers can also send their questions IN THE BID itself.

 

re: "Can I recommend some one for the job/project if I feel the other professional be a better fit?"

 

Of course you may do that.

 

re: "Should this person be a Upwork user, or you can send the person's information directly to a client?"

There is no rule that prevents Upwork users from recommending non-Upwork freelancers to clients.

 

There is no way to do that prior to submitting a bid, however.


Preston H wrote:

re: "If someone response to my proposal, do I have a chance to discuss the project in details and have an interview?"

 

Yes.

You can take as long as you need during the "interview" phase. This does not obligate you to do anything.

 

re: "The price of proposal is already fixed, however the details are usually not disclosed."

 

The price in the proposal is simply a placeholder, an opportunity to have a discussion. It is not a final price. The client and freelancer can come to an agreement about a final price.

 

re: "I am looking for bookkeeping or accounting jobs. Therefore, it is vital to know the details."

 

Freelancers may bid on any jobs that they want to bit on. If a freelancer wants to start a conversation about a project, she may bid. If she isn't interested, she doesn't need to bid.

 

Freelancers can not ask questions before they bid. They can bid, and then if the client replies, they can ask questions. Freelancers can also send their questions IN THE BID itself.

 

re: "Can I recommend some one for the job/project if I feel the other professional be a better fit?"

 

Of course you may do that.

 

re: "Should this person be a Upwork user, or you can send the person's information directly to a client?"

There is no rule that prevents Upwork users from recommending non-Upwork freelancers to clients.

 

There is no way to do that prior to submitting a bid, however.


Preston, are you 100% sure about this? I think there must be a rule, otherwise, what's to stop someone from referring a client to their friend or relative or even their own alter ego? 

 

Mods, please weigh in!


Preston H wrote:

 

There is no rule that prevents Upwork users from recommending non-Upwork freelancers to clients.


Again, giving partial information that can lead to the OP getting into deep trouble.

 

If she recommends a non-Upwork freelancer to a client that non-Upwork freelancer would have to become an Upwork freelancer and be hired through Upwork. Otherwise it would indeed be a ToS violation.

To be clear:

 

I am saying that the original poster would NOT get into trouble.

 

And that recommending a non-Upwork freelancer to a client is NOT a violation of Upwork ToS.

 

I am saying that an Upwork freelancer may refer Upwork clients to non-Upwork freelancers...

 

And that the clients may hire the non-Upwork freelancers without using Upwork.


Preston H wrote:

To be clear:

 

I am saying that an Upwork freelancer may refer Upwork clients to non-Upwork freelancers...

 

And that the clients may hire the non-Upwork freelancers without using Upwork.


To "be clear:"

You are dead wrong. PLEASE do not try to get people kicked off Upwork.

 

Circumvention

 

Screenshot_1.png

 

This has been discussed and confirmed by Upwork various times in the past. If an Upwork member refers anyone outside Upwork it still has to go through and paid through Upwork.


Petra R wrote:

Preston H wrote:

To be clear:

 

I am saying that an Upwork freelancer may refer Upwork clients to non-Upwork freelancers...

 

And that the clients may hire the non-Upwork freelancers without using Upwork.


To "be clear:"

You are dead wrong. PLEASE do not try to get people kicked off Upwork.

 

Circumvention

 

Screenshot_1.png

__________________________

 

And continuing on from Petra's post in the same section. Upwork is specific:  "[...] By way of illustration and not in limitation of the foregoing, you agree not to: [...] Refer a User you identified on the Site to a third-party who is not a User of the Site for purposes of making or receiving payments off the Site."


 

So, Tatiana don't do it.

 


Nichola L wrote:

And continuing on from Petra's post in the same section. Upwork is specific:  "[...] By way of illustration and not in limitation of the foregoing, you agree not to: [...] Refer a User you identified on the Site to a third-party who is not a User of the Site for purposes of making or receiving payments off the Site."


Thanks Nichola, that was the part I actually meant to post.

It could not be clearer, could it?

 

Crystal clear!! 🙂

It would be ethically wrong and it would be a violation of Upwork's ToS, as quoted above, for an Upwork user to refer a client to another feelancer for the purposes of making or receiving payments off the site.

 

This was not the original poster's purpose. As she stated, she was asking if she could refer a client to somebody else if she was not the best fit for the job:

 

"Can I recommend some one for the job/project if I feel the other professional be a better fit?"

 

Clearly the original poster's purpose had nothing to do with where or how payments are processed.

 

It would be ethically wrong and it would be a violation of Upwork's ToS if an Upwork user was identified by any type of referral, and was paid off of the platform. According to Upwork's ToS, as quoted in the section posted above, an Upwork user identified through the site in any way must keep payments on the Upwork platform for a period of two years. This is part of the Upwork ToS, binding on all site users.

 

This does not apply to freelancers who are not site users.

 

It is neither Upwork's written policy (in their ToS) nor is it their actual practice to try to prevent freelancers from making helpful recommendations to clients regarding other people who clients can work with.

 

Freelancers may refer Upwork clients to Upwork freelancers or non-Upwork freelancers.

 

If a client hires an Upwork freelancer, all payments must go through Upwork. If a client invites a non-Upwork freelancer to become an Upwork freelancer, then all payments must go through Upwork. There is much value to both the client and freelancer in doing so.

 

Upwork does not tell clients that they can not hire non-Upwork freelancers to work on their projects, whether or not those freelancers were referred to them by an Upwork freelancer or somebody else.

 

Upwork does not in practice try to require non-Upwork users to abide by its non-circumvention clauses, nor does it make any suggestion in its ToS that these clauses apply to non-Upwork users.

 

Some things in Upwork's ToS may seem like legalese or boilerplate and may seem somewhat tangential to actual Upwork practice and intent. But in this case, I see no difference between Upwork's written ToS, its intended business practices, and how it actually operates.

 

If it makes it easier to understand, simply apply this to a real world situation: Suppose a freelancer refers a client to a local surgeon whose specialty is removing difficult-to-reach brain tumors. The surgeon has admitting privileges at a local hospital with the requisite equipment. This surgeon genuinely was a better person to serve a client's needs than a freelancer referring the client to him. The freelancer is a writer - not a surgeon. The surgeon - a sole practitioner ("freelancer") is not an Upwork user. It is not Upwork's intent that the client either (a) NOT take advantage of that surgeon's services; or (b) pay the surgeon through Upwork. A comparable situation is one in which a freelancer refers a client to another writer - who is NOT an Upwork user - because that writer has great experience in writing descriptions of shoes. That referred-to writer is not an Upwork user, and Upwork's ToS do not apply to her. The Upwork freelancer may make such a referral - the purpose of which was NOT to avoid payment through the platform - and the client may hire the freelancer, and that writer may work for the client, all without violating Upwork ToS. And none of this violates how Upwork intends its platform to be used.

Preston, when in a hole, stop digging.

 

Let's circle back to what you claimed:

 

nonsense.png

 

This is false. That's all there is to it and no amount of trying to twist stuff is going to change that fact.

 

As so often, it's not the stuff you don't know that cause the trouble, it's the stuff you are absolutely adamant that you do know, when that isn't the case.

 

This is a worthwhile discussion.

 

I actually do not have any particular preference about this matter. I am simply answering the original poster's question.

 

Clearly there are participants in this thread who look at this matter differently than I do.

 

But at this point, I do not think there is any ambiguity about my understanding of Upwork's policies regarding this question.


Preston H wrote:

I am simply answering the original poster's question.


Well, you were answering her question, by telling her something is fine when it isn't, and then continued to argue that it's fine, including an attempt to claim that regardless of what is in the ToS, that's not actually what they mean...

 

Which part of the text below, which has been confirmed by Upwork, are you not understanding?

 

"[...] By way of illustration and not in limitation of the foregoing, you agree not to: [...] Refer a User you identified on the Site to a third-party who is not a User of the Site for purposes of making or receiving payments off the Site."

 


Preston H wrote:

 

But at this point, I do not think there is any ambiguity about my position.


Oh, there is no ambiguity... none at all. You are claiming that something is fine which directly violates the ToS.


Petra R wrote:

Preston H wrote:

I am simply answering the original poster's question.


Well, you were answering her question, by telling her something is fine when it isn't, and then continued to argue that it's fine, including an attempt to claim that regardless of what is in the ToS, that's not actually what they mean...

 

Which part of the text below, which has been confirmed by Upwork, are you not understanding?

 

"[...] By way of illustration and not in limitation of the foregoing, you agree not to: [...] Refer a User you identified on the Site to a third-party who is not a User of the Site for purposes of making or receiving payments off the Site."

 


Preston H wrote:

 

But at this point, I do not think there is any ambiguity about my position.


Oh, there is no ambiguity... none at all. You are claiming that something is fine which directly violates the ToS.


_________________________

 

Preston,

 

There are times when you need an editor 😉 

 

This is what the OP asked: "Can I recommend some one for  the job/project if I feel the other professional be a better fit?

Should this person be a UpWork user, or you can send the person's information directly to a client?

 

So the answer is:

1) Yes, the person should be an Upwork user, and if the person is an Upwork user, then yes, she can give the client that person's Upwork url. I often do it. 

2) If the person is not an Upwork user and the client is, then no, the OP may not send the client off site to that person. 

 

What's so hard about this? 

 

I see that Valeria gave a definitive answer last fall. Though Upwork has indeed taken a hard line on such referrals, it is based on different language in the ToS.

Several informed legal minds express doubt about the clarity or defensiblity of that hard line, while also pointing out the risks involved in a freelancer's pressing them on this point.

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Client-referral/m-p/524639


Petra R wrote:

Nichola L wrote:

And continuing on from Petra's post in the same section. Upwork is specific:  "[...] By way of illustration and not in limitation of the foregoing, you agree not to: [...] Refer a User you identified on the Site to a third-party who is not a User of the Site for purposes of making or receiving payments off the Site."


Thanks Nichola, that was the part I actually meant to post.

It could not be clearer, could it?


Well, yes, it could. Were I, hypothetically, to refer a potential client off site, I would not be doing so "for purposes of making or receiving payments off the site." Nor would the referred client follow up on the referral for that purpose; but rather to get their work done by the most suitable person, irrespective of payment methods or source of the referral. They might make a similar decision based on a response to another ad, or a referral from a person not on Upwork. How can Upwork have an interest in, let alone a claim to, any of this?

The "purpose" clause reads to me as a specifically anti-fraud/impersonation/circumvention provision; if anything it distinguishes sham referrals from real and normal ones, such as any professional might make in the course of business.

The mods wrestled with this question a while back, and my arguably imperfect recollection is that they specified that exclusivity applies if the contracting parties "meet" on Upwork. That is not the case being presented here. It's not at all clear to me that Upwork has the least say in referrals I make in which neither I nor they have a vested interest.


One freelancer interpreted those clauses under contention as, "Upwork hijacking a freelancer's referral chain" [paraphrase mine] , and for that specific reason she elects to no longer accept new clients through Upwork.

 

Vladmir also weighed in on this matter one time and said cannot clients cannot do circumvention through referring. In other words, referring so as to circumvent.

 

Preston's understanding seems to be, that the purpose of such referral, in this case, the FL referring, is not to circumvent.

 

There is quite a measure of ambiguity, especially during the interpretation of those referral clauses, and I'm afraid such ambiguity would unavoidable.

 

Presently, Upwork sells our data to advertisers. I'm rather disappointed, because one would think, all those clauses to reign in on circumvention through referrals are so that they can be financially sustainable without having to sell our data like all the other big tech companies we use for free.

 

Preston, when you're making an assumption (even if it's a sensible one) about Upwork's policy, please state that this is what you're doing. Don't present your assumption as a fact.


Abinadab A. wrote:

One freelancer interpreted those clauses under contention as, "Upwork hijacking a freelancer's referral chain" [paraphrase mine] , and for that specific reason she elects to no longer accept new clients through Upwork.

 

Vladmir also weighed in on this matter one time and said cannot clients cannot do circumvention through referring. In other words, referring so as to circumvent.

 

Preston's understanding seems to be, that the purpose of such referral, in this case, the FL referring, is not to circumvent.

 

There is quite a measure of ambiguity, especially during the interpretation of those referral clauses, and I'm afraid such ambiguity would unavoidable.

 

Presently, Upwork sells our data to advertisers. I'm rather disappointed, because one would think, all those clauses to reign in on circumvention through referrals are so that they can be financially sustainable without having to sell our data like all the other big tech companies we use for free.

All interpretive questions have been, as a practical matter, rendered moot by Valeria's November 2018 statement of Upwork policy. Right or wrong, legally defensible or not, the policy has been clearly stated, and site users flout it at thier peril.

You're correct though, Douglas.

Any freelancer who disagrees with how Upwork's official interpretation of those clauses may go to court and spend a fortune there defending his/her interpretation after his account has been suspended. Hopefully, he might get awarded a few millions in damages.

 

Or he/she might simply discontinue using Upwork to avoid the whole debacle.


Abinadab A wrote:

You're correct though, Douglas.

Any freelancer who disagrees with how Upwork's official interpretation of those clauses may go to court and spend a fortune there defending his/her interpretation after his account has been suspended. Hopefully, he might get awarded a few millions in damages.

 

Or he/she might simply discontinue using Upwork to avoid the whole debacle.


Hope springs infernal. Smiley Wink

vivroodt
Community Member

It's common sense. I doubt whether a non Upwork member can do work for an Upwork client, as Upwork would not be able to collect a fee from that person.
JoanneP
Moderator
Moderator

Hi Tatiana,

 

Once you submit a proposal, you and the client can discuss the job further to better understand the requirements needed to complete the task. If in case the client sends you an offer, we highly recommend that you have all the information needed and that you are a perfect fit for the position the client is looking to fill before you decide to accept the job offer.

 

You can recommend other freelancers for the job, but the contract and all payments should be done on Upwork. Let us know if you have further questions, thanks.

~ Joanne
Upwork
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