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dynastydyer
Community Member

No Prior Contact Rule

This is a rant and also a request for advice.

 

I've had a lot of decent interviews lately and almost every single one of them asked for a phone or Zoom call off-platform. They all seem like legit clients, and most of them have spent money on Upwork.

 

I outline the rules, and they disappear off the face of the planet. This has happened multiple times.

 

How are you guys framing the news to your potential clients? I'm simply telling them that it's against TOS now and ask to continue the conversation on Upwork.

 

Is there something else I can do?

 

Also, why can't I SCHEDULE a Zoom call? Am I missing the option? If you can't, that seems kind of backward.

ACCEPTED SOLUTION
wlyonsatl
Community Member

Dynasty,

 

I include the following text at the end of all my initial proposal letters on both open jobs I find using Upwork's search function and invitations from clients:

 

QUOTE

 

Please note that during pre-contract communications Upwork requires that we only use either Upwork’s VOIP service or Upwork’s Zoom-compatible app to talk through the specifics of what you need and to discuss any questions you and I have for one another:

 

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/217698348-Video-and-Voice-Calls

 

UNQUOTE

 

I have not noticed any obvious reduction in client responses since I've added that text to my proposals, but I have never kept a precise record of prospective client responses to my proposals. Once I have submitted a proposal, I forget about it unless the prospective client responds.

 

I have had prospective clients respond that they didn't know this was what Upwork required (?!), but none have objected or refused and we've moved on to a call.

 

Many never responded to my proposals, but that has always been par for the course.

 

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19 REPLIES 19
jr-translation
Community Member


Dynasty D wrote:

This is a rant and also a request for advice.

 

I've had a lot of decent interviews lately and almost every single one of them asked for a phone or Zoom call off-platform. They all seem like legit clients, and most of them have spent money on Upwork.

 

I outline the rules, and they disappear off the face of the planet. This has happened multiple times.

 

How are you guys framing the news to your potential clients? I'm simply telling them that it's against TOS now and ask to continue the conversation on Upwork.

 

Is there something else I can do?

 

Also, why can't I SCHEDULE a Zoom call? Am I missing the option? If you can't, that seems kind of backward.


You are missing the fact that Zoom is an option.

You find it in the upper right corner with your messages.

Screenshot_2020-12-31 Messages.png

I am aware that Zoom is an option. But they don't respond when I invite them to an Upwork Zoom call. They just want to conversate on THEIR Zoom. My comment is a complaint about the fact that I cannot SCHEDULE one. If they wanted to meet at 2 PM tomorrow, for example, I can't put that in their calendar. I can only start one when I hit the button.

That's strange. Although I hate the rule, I do not experience people bouncing because communication has to be on Upwork.

I don't know if the two are related. None of them have told me that they stopped responding BECAUSE of that. I suppose that is a small assumption on my part. I just know that they seem excited to proceed and, after I tell them that, they stop replying.

Dynasty, just highlighting the same thing that Jennifer mentioned.

None of the really good clients that I have met ever since that rule was introduced have made it a showstopper to use the built-in tools Upwork offers. (And I have to also mention the mere Upwork call didn't do the job so I was more than happy to see that Zoom integration become reality.)

I cannot see your profile so I understand that I cannot generalize.

I tend to decline most of the invitations and only talk to the best 5-10% or so potential clients, so my case could be different from yours.

Anyway, the bottom line is, if the client really wants YOU in particular, they will PROBABLY comply the ToS. Does it make sense?

It's business, after all, and business is defined by genuine need.


Mikko R wrote:

I tend to decline most of the invitations and only talk to the best 5-10% or so potential clients, so my case could be different from yours.

Anyway, the bottom line is, if the client really wants YOU in particular, they will PROBABLY comply the ToS. Does it make sense?

^ I only work with people who genuinely seem interested in only working with me because they vibe with my style for this exact reason.

Personally I find it super odd when someone doesn't want to speak through upwork - you're already on the site, what do you find so offensive about it to hit "call" whether it's on one program or another. So I'm uncertain why this would happen to you so often.

I once had one potential client say that it made her "uncomfortable" so she left the site and worked with someone local - if they are THAT uncomfortable, I find it super strange and tell them I think that's for the best, good luck (and mentally roll my eyes so far back that I can see my brain 🙂 )

jennifervh
Community Member

Hi Dynasty, I've had this conversation with pretty many potential clients, but none of them have ever disappeared on me, though they are relieved to hear that after a contract is in place we can communicate off-platform.

 

If a client asks to meet via phone call or off-platform Zoom, I just state plainly that Upwork has put a policy into effect that we must communicate through their platform until a contract is in place. Most go along with it pretty readily; if they complain I commiserate and let them know I don't agree with the policy, that the Upwork community of freelancers did push back when this was implemented, but that I'm careful to abide by the policy because Upwork is important to my business. One particular client was quite annoyed with the policy, but he did hire me and we have a good relationship.

 

I removed Upwork Profile link from my LinkedIn profile when the policy went into place, because I find it embarassing (unprofessional). But since it's been in place, and even though potential clients express frustration with it, I don't feel it has seriously hindered me getting new work.

 

Good luck.

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Dynasty,

 

I include the following text at the end of all my initial proposal letters on both open jobs I find using Upwork's search function and invitations from clients:

 

QUOTE

 

Please note that during pre-contract communications Upwork requires that we only use either Upwork’s VOIP service or Upwork’s Zoom-compatible app to talk through the specifics of what you need and to discuss any questions you and I have for one another:

 

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/217698348-Video-and-Voice-Calls

 

UNQUOTE

 

I have not noticed any obvious reduction in client responses since I've added that text to my proposals, but I have never kept a precise record of prospective client responses to my proposals. Once I have submitted a proposal, I forget about it unless the prospective client responds.

 

I have had prospective clients respond that they didn't know this was what Upwork required (?!), but none have objected or refused and we've moved on to a call.

 

Many never responded to my proposals, but that has always been par for the course.

 

@Dynasty, i have also to comment that it is in general a good thing to weed out clients who want to do video calls. This is a bad sign. Normally it means, at least, that "i am too lazy to type stuff out", which usually translates into laziness to test product properly or to put down specifications properly, and usually, it actually means "i don't know what i want, my plan is so vague i couldn't even put it into writing, while you may try to reinvent it for me from my stream of consciousness in a video call". If you win such a client - and you can only do it by being a better communicator, not by being a better professional - his project will most certainly fail, anyway.

Alexander N.,

 

Every client / freelancer relationship is no doubt in some ways unique.

 

I would not consider working with any client who DIDN'T agree to calls before and during a project. Many of my clients (and probably most people) do not express themselves as clearly through the written word as they do through conversation. 

 

But that is not to say I like working with chatty clients who say they have limited budgets but also insist on having unnecessarily long conversations. And I avoid clients whose English I have a difficult time understanding.


Will L wrote:

But that is not to say I like working with chatty clients who say they have limited budgets but also insist on having unnecessarily long conversations. And I avoid clients whose English I have a difficult time understanding.


Slightly off topic but to this point, I am still trying to figure out the best way to eliminate these ridiculous 45 mins to 1-hour calls from my life, because if the client ends up prioritizing budget and goes with someone unqualified or cheaper, then I am super frustrated at the amount of time I gave them. Not to mention the ones who disappear and never hire anyone, as is frequently occurring.

Gina:

You don't need to eliminate these calls.

You need to be paid for them.

Require clients to hire you before you provide them with consultation.

Bill for time using an hourly contract.

Clients should feel free to talk to you for as long as they want to.

Just make sure they know this is billed time.

Many clients who hire me insist on having an hourly contract in place before the first live consultation.


Preston H wrote:

Gina:

You don't need to eliminate these calls.

You need to be paid for them.

Require clients to hire you before you provide them with consultation.

Bill for time using an hourly contract.

Clients should feel free to talk to you for as long as they want to.

Just make sure they know this is billed time.

Many clients who hire me insist on having an hourly contract in place before the first live consultation.


I do tend to agree, but most of the time these calls are for them to "interview" me in regards to a job posting and to give me information so I can create an accurate quote (I need a LOT of info to do so in my field, unfortunately, as I need to be provided with a ton of assets for my base pricing and the less assets they can provide, the more it costs, so of course I have to try and extract exactly what they can give me in order to quote. even then half the time they misinterpret what I'm asking for - ie, if I tell them I want all package text in a word doc, they will do something ridiculous like send me a word doc with a picture of the text so I can't copy paste and thus avoid typos, silly things like that). So I feel like interviewing / providing a price isn't necessarily a consultation? My thoughts on that are if every client had to pay every person they were interviewing for a consultation, even if it's only 3 or 4 people, that will get expensive fast. 

I was thinking to do 15 to 20 min calls for free, but then I'm unsure if I should let them know up front "hey by the way, anything over this amount of time is considered a consultation so we will need to set up an hourly contract", or if I should just politely exit the convo when we hit 20 mins and say unfortunately this is where I have to cut the call short.

Gina, I contend with this ongoing challenge, too, because I need certain info to provide a sound quote for research projects. I budget 20-30 minutes for phone convos. If a call runs long and/or the client is asking too many questions that require giving away the store, I tell them gently but firmly that we're getting into the territory of hourly consultation -- which I'm happy to provide if they want to set up a contract. Usually that's enough to get them on track. Sometimes they vanish after that, sometimes they hire me after I submit a firm quote. I try not to stress about having given someone too much time when they don't wind up hiring me. I use those phone calls to get acquainted and take a client's measure as a professional and a person, which is the beginning of managing the relationship. So to a point, it's a necessary investment that may or may not pay off. I look at how the time amortizes across the year instead of obsessing on individual cases.

 

All that being said, it sounds like your info needs are more standardized and I wonder if creating a brief intake form would help structure the conversation and keep a prospective client focused and clear on details (such as not sending a Word doc containing a picture of text)?

 


Phyllis G wrote:


I try not to stress about having given someone too much time when they don't wind up hiring me. I use those phone calls to get acquainted and take a client's measure as a professional and a person, which is the beginning of managing the relationship. So to a point, it's a necessary investment that may or may not pay off. I look at how the time amortizes across the year instead of obsessing on individual cases.

 

All that being said, it sounds like your info needs are more standardized and I wonder if creating a brief intake form would help structure the conversation and keep a prospective client focused and clear on details (such as not sending a Word doc containing a picture of text)?

 


You're right, in the end the calls do pay off over time. I guess I just need to learn to cut the call short once it hits a half hour, that's when I start getting super cranky. Or, I won't be cranky because I'll feel connected to the client and really get stoked about the project and spend over an hour discussing out of excitement, they tell me I'm exactly what they are looking for, then they disappear once I ask if they want me to set up the contract. And at that point, then I'm cranky haha.


I actually have a brief intake form that I use off of Upwork, maybe I'll bring it here too.

RE: "How are you guys framing the news to your potential clients?"

 

It was suggested by many of us that Upwork at least inform job posters of this new rule via a pop-up before their post went live, rather than putting the onus on the freelancers. Met with the usual quiet brick wall.


Virginia F wrote:

RE: "How are you guys framing the news to your potential clients?"

 

It was suggested by many of us that Upwork at least inform job posters of this new rule via a pop-up before their post went live, rather than putting the onus on the freelancers. Met with the usual quiet brick wall.



My question is do they get punished by being banned the way freelancers do... highly unlikely, I'm sure they just get a minor slap on the wrist.

I have so many clients that say "oh, I didn't know that! Thanks for letting me know!"
Which makes me wonder if they even receive that little popup that says you need to keep your convo on upwork that appears every time i type any form of info in messages...

Preston,

 

I don't let certain prospective clients become part of the universe of clients who can leave feedback for me, so I'd rather spend some time answering a few questions for them and even giving some low-value general advice without having a contract in place.

 

In my work on Upwork, I don't want to have clueless clients who think that because they don't understand what  am doing for them that must mean I don't know what I'm doing. 

 

 


Will L wrote:

Preston,

 

I don't let certain prospective clients become part of the universe of clients who can leave feedback for me, so I'd rather spend some time answering a few questions for them and even giving some low-value general advice without having a contract in place.

 

 


Yeah this is my other concern.. if someone doesn't like the pricing of a consultation they may pay it but mention something negative in feedback. I don't mind giving out some small tidbits of advice like a preview of what I can offer, I'm more concerned about how much time is being eaten up by them describing their creative vision. In messages I don't care so much because I can come back to them to read through anytime, but on a call it's a headache since I can't focus my attention elsewhere while they talk about their project in roundabout ways, and then I have to try and direct them into giving me the info I actually need.

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