Not sure if client is serious about hiring or just wants free consulting work

[a5986c8a]

I signed up about a week ago or so and i have been talking to a company about a job. This job is extremely specific and specialized ( software engineering related to spatial imagery ) and my overall question about it, is when do I stop talking to them? Meaning at which point in the course of a discussion can I say “i’m sorry but we need to discuss payment/terms before I can give you that information”?

They are asking for a lot of details  -  it’s a software engineering job that is asking for the creation of automated software connected to roads. Details are part of it of course and I am not actually writing the code yet BUT I am concerned if I give too much information they could take it and try to build it themselves. It involves telling them about specific programs, software languages etc…  They have sent me extra files and I am about to build a simple test...

But then I am thinking this is work, and they have not mentioned actually hiring or timelines, I have a feeling they want as much information as possible. Also and this is important, there are also 2 red flags.  1. They are payment unverified and  2. the profile says they have 'interviewed' 33 people but have made no offers. 

The latest message said "Thank you for the detailed feedback. Our aim is to have a software which our employees can use to ----------. I am attaching some vector files to show how our paths actually look like. I request you to go through them once, it would be interesting to look out for your suggestions. Also just to make you clear we are currently using only freely available data and not any commercial imagery. I think it has an important role to play here, when it comes to training the dataset. In attachment you will find 2 files:"

They want to hear about my suggestions but make no mentions of hiring...

This is intellectually stimulating but I don't want to work for free. or worse, be exploited for my insights... can I ask the client for clarity about payments and what they are looking for? 

[prestonhunter]

re: "Not sure if client is serious about hiring or just wants free consulting work"

Upwork can't manage this for you. It is physically impossible for Upwork to do that.

Also, this is not something that the client himself necessarily knows how to do.

So who is left?

You need to manage this yourself.

You, as the freelancer, must be the person who tells the client:

"Frank, it has been nice to talk to about your project. You can go ahead and click the green 'Hire' button to start an official hourly contract, so that we can continue to work on this."

You should have done that a LONG time ago.

Note that MANY clients would not have done what this client did. MANY clients who have hired me VERY QUICKLY clicked the Hire button and put me under contract before any discussions were had. But not all clients know to do that. If a client doesn't start a contract with you, then it is YOUR responsibility to tell them to do so.

If the client does NOT hire you with an hourly contract, then your conversations with the client have come to an end. It is NOT Upwork's intention that you work for free. It is a violation of Upwork ToS for a client to ask you to work for free.

I ENCOURAGE you to volunteer your time in your local community, such as at your local school, church, mosque, community center, etc., or for causes that you inentionally seek out and volunteer for, such as Habitat for Humanity. But Upwork is not an appropriate place for you to do volunteer work.

[tanishasi]

what about the client who hired me in an hourly contract?

Then they discussed about project and I got to know that client needs more work so I mentioned that I will charge more and  I told them all my charges and all my ideas and strategies about how I will work.

Then they asked for a fixed price, when I told the client agreed, but later started negotiating I told her the work is time taking and everything and she asked about garunteed results.I mentioned and explained how things work and again gave her all the strategy, In the end the client reduced the cost to 1/4th of the original cost. So should I delete my messages where I explained the strategies and inputs?

[feed_my_eyes · Accepted solution]

Tell them that you'll be happy to answer further questions as soon as a contract is in place. If you don't hear from them again, then flag the job as inappropriate with the comment "client is requesting free work". If they're interviewing 33 freelancers, then I agree that that's a red flag.

[a5986c8a]

Thank you, Christine A, this is an excellent answer. I was initially flattered when they replied at first  - I don't have a ton of experience -  and I wrote a very in-depth answer, but now that they are sending me more information and asking for more 'suggestions' then I am a bit hesitant because the test itself would take quite a bit of time.  

[richardrader]

"Meaning at which point in the course of a discussion can I say “i’m sorry but we need to discuss payment/terms before I can give you that information”?"

You can do this at any time you want, its up to you to decide when this is appopriate. Best thing to do is professionally communicate with the client and let them know you are no longer comfortable providing any more information. Also you want to make sure there payment is verified before starting work, it is a requirement for payment protection. 

[gina-herrera]

I would offer to set up a contract for a consulting fee - "I apologize, I know you are in search of suggestions but unfortunately if I advised every potential client that came to me for free I would quickly be out of a job. Would you mind opening a contract for a one-hour consultation? If you like what I have to say and feel my suggestions are helpful, then we can discuss extending the contract."

It's also up to you how much youd want to charge for that as well, I had a potential client recently ghost me because I quoted him a higher price than my hourly rate and he was angry, but imo the hourly rate is only for time spent and doesn't take into account the value of the advice given. I usually offer to subtract the consultation price off the total project too.

[a5986c8a]

Gina thank you so much this is exactly the right approach. Because the project is complex, it would take a while to even figure out the hows and because it's software, it has to be tested. This takes some time,  It can't do it 'in theory'.  So your solution is ideal. I will write back with the offer of a consulting contract/timeline and see what they say. That way I will be ok with the client ghosting, if he does ( I am thinking it's likely tbh), after I reply to them. 

[prestonhunter]

It is inappropriate for the client to be talking to about their project without an hourly contract in place for you to use to bill them for all the time spent doing so.