Painful Feedback Policy

alamgir365 · ‎11-20-2019

Upwork should make a change to the feedback policy.
Last year 2018,I have worked few months in several project with a client.All project was completed successfully and my client didn't ended the contact, because he told me that,he will send me more project after few weeks.Since then I was waiting for his project.After few months January 2019,he message me with "hey are you available to work for us,we have some work for you" . And I was confirmed him that yes I am available for your project.
But he didn't send me any work. I have message him several times but he didn't even respond.
Now, yesterday I saw that he ended our contract without any communication with me.
I thought maybe he will hire me again or he doesn't have any work for me right now.
I provide him a regular positive feedback, and then I saw he give me just 4 star feedback without any comments.
If I was able see the client feedback before to provide my feedback to client,then I was asked him the reason why he did so.
I have tried to contact with him,but unfortunately he didn't respond yet.
It's really painful when you did everything for the client and the client satisfied with your work,but at the end, client just provide a negative feedback without any reason without any comments.

Upwork should start a survey to see how many freelancer want to see the client feedback before to provide freelancer feedback to client.
I believe atleast 80 to 90% freelancer will agree with this.

petra_r · ‎11-20-2019

Alamgeer H wrote:
Upwork should start a survey to see how many freelancer want to see the client feedback before to provide freelancer feedback to client.
I believe atleast 80 to 90% freelancer will agree with this.

I doubt it, because it would create absolute carnage!!

The system is double blind to prevent revenge feedback.
Both parties must be free to leave the feedback they want without worrying that they get poor feedback back if they do not leave 5 stars.

prestonhunter · ‎11-20-2019

Alamgeer:

I do not doubt that your post is sincere.

But Upwork is not going to change their feedback system to allow freelancers to see a client's feedback before a freelancer leaves their feedback.

My recommendations to you:

- Leave honest feedback whenever a contract ends. Do not try to manipulate your feedback or scores based on what you think a client might be doing.

- Resist the temptation to take any "negative" feedback you received personally. Instead, try to learn from the feedback you receive. The client who gave you feedback is a real person, who had real reasons for for leaving you that score. I am not perfect, and neither are you. But both of us can learn and try to improve.

- Keep in mind that right now you have 100% JSS. That is very good. This proves that there are factors other than a client's public feedback that contribute to the calculation of JSS.

petra_r · ‎11-20-2019

Preston H wrote:
This proves that there are factors other than a client's public feedback that contribute to the calculation of JSS.

The contract in question is not yet included. Its impact will not be clear until Sunday.

prestonhunter · ‎11-20-2019

The original poster's current work history shows many closed jobs which span a remarkably wide range of star average scores. Without considering this latest contract, his job history already shows that a client can have 100% JSS even with negative client feedback.

There are multiple reasons for this.

For one, not all of a freelancer's past feedback is considered in the calculation of JSS. The JSS calculation is based on a calculation taken from 3 "rolling time windows" (the past 6 months, past 12 months, past 24 months), and the best score is used as their public JSS.

And importantly: JSS is based on many factors, not just public feedback star average scores.

The original poster wrote:

"I provide him a regular positive feedback, and then I saw he give me just 4 star feedback without any comments."

It is NOT Upwork's intention that every contract be awarded a PERFECT score in ALL SIX categories that clients evaluate freelancers on, thus providing a perfect FIVE all the time. That is NOT how judging or scoring is meant to work. When that happens, the system is not being used properly.

I consider a 4 to be a good score and I am impressed when MY clients take the time to thoughtfully give me scores that are less than perfect. I would not pause at all to work again for a client who gave me a 4 star-averge on a past contract.

petra_r · ‎11-20-2019

Preston H wrote:
The original poster's current work history shows many closed jobs which span a remarkably wide range of star average scores. Without considering this latest contract, his job history already shows that a client can have 100% JSS even with negative client feedback.

Because all the poor feedback is outside the 6 month window, he is (clearly) on his 6 month calculation window which allows even a freelancer with a very poor history to stay on 100% for a while.

Preston H wrote:
And importantly: JSS is based on many factors, not just public feedback star average scores.

Preston, I am aware of how the JSS works, as you know perfectly well.

This contract is not (yet) included in his JSS calculation, because it closed after the last update.

versailles · ‎11-20-2019

Petra R wrote:
Because all the poor feedback is outside the 6 month window, he is (clearly) on his 6 month calculation window which allows even a freelancer with a very poor history to stay on 100% for a while.

There is something wrong with this system. When I'm looking at the profile, the 100% JSS feel totally wrong. I think a client looking a this profile would easily dismiss the whole JSS system as a joke.

And both you and me can imagine what his private feedback is and how it is uncorrelated with his JSS.

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light" —William Ashbless

lysis10 · ‎11-20-2019

I think the two large contracts are holding up his JSS. The 6500 one looks to still be ongoing, and then he has the 3200 that looks to be ongoing.

His JSS will take a hit I think on Sunday. It would be interesting to watch.

petra_r · ‎11-20-2019

Jennifer M wrote:
I think the two large contracts are holding up his JSS. The 6500 one looks to still be ongoing, and then he has the 3200 that looks to be ongoing.

They allow a 6 month JSS to be calculated at least.

Of course freelancers on a 6 month window with few outcomes in the 6 month window are most vulnerable to large swings.

Rene K wrote:
There is something wrong with this system. When I'm looking at the profile, the 100% JSS feel totally wrong. I think a client looking a this profile would easily dismiss the whole JSS system as a joke.
And both you and me can imagine what his private feedback is and how it is uncorrelated with his JSS.

Yes, it's a pretty extreme example how the JSS is often artificially high.

kbadeau · ‎11-20-2019

Petra R wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
I think the two large contracts are holding up his JSS. The 6500 one looks to still be ongoing, and then he has the 3200 that looks to be ongoing.
They allow a 6 month JSS to be calculated at least.
Of course freelancers on a 6 month window with few outcomes in the 6 month window are most vulnerable to large swings.

Rene K wrote:
There is something wrong with this system. When I'm looking at the profile, the 100% JSS feel totally wrong. I think a client looking a this profile would easily dismiss the whole JSS system as a joke.
And both you and me can imagine what his private feedback is and how it is uncorrelated with his JSS.
Yes, it's a pretty extreme example how the JSS is often artificially high.

On the other hand, and I think you know this is a major frustration of mine, if you look at my profile, you might wonder what in the heck I am doing wrong and why more score is 92%.

alamgir365 · ‎11-20-2019

Thanks Preston,

You're absolutely righ.

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

I just had this happen to me for the first time. The client resented the fact that he had to pay me $25 instead of the measly $10 he originally offered.

He took revenge by giving me 3-stars.

So, I took the opportunity to respond and explain what he did. IOW, I shamed him. You can do the same.

petra_r · ‎11-20-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:

So, I took the opportunity to respond and explain what he did. IOW, I shamed him. You can do the same.

Unfortunately, some (I'd go as far as to say "most") responses to feedback do immeasurably more harm to the freelancer than the feedback they are attached to.

Sadly I think this is one of those cases... Not only does it draw unnecessary attention to a sub-optimal feedback, it makes you sound tricky to work with and culturally insensitive ("You're in country X, so you can afford...") As your response will never show on the client's profile, it only harms your own. I bet it will cost you business until it falls off the first page of your profile.

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

Oh, I want potential clients to see it.

versailles · ‎11-20-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
Oh, I want potential clients to see it.

You don't. I had a look at your profile and seriously, you don't want your prospective clients to see what you wrote.

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light" —William Ashbless

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

A lot of people agree with me. Only the perpetually offended will care.

petra_r · ‎11-20-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
A lot of people agree with me.

They do?

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

Also, I find that clients I get off Upwork are the worst of the worst. Most are just here to rip off freelancers. The tricks they try to use are numerous.

Anything that can keep those people from hiring me is a good thing.

kbadeau · ‎11-20-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
Also, I find that clients I get off Upwork are the worst of the worst. Most are just here to rip off freelancers. The tricks they try to use are numerous.

Anything that can keep those people from hiring me is a good thing.

If you are accepting gigs for $25 then you are never going to have the kind of clients you want. Your profile is private so I don't know what you do, but I do know that there are plenty of good clients on Upwork.

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

I'm a copywriter/content writer.

However, this job was $25 to fix the guy's English in a short email.

I consider it a fair price for what I did. However, he was angry because he initially tried to offer me $10. I told him I wanted $25, he agreed, and then only put $10 in escrow.

I said he would need to put $25 in escrow before we start working. (Btw, he sent me an invitation.)

Obviously, he was angry because he wanted something for nothing. I saw his company and what he does for a living. I know what kind of society he lives in and how he's used to treating foreign employees.

These aren't good people.

My mistake was not canceling the contract as soon as I saw $10 in escrow. I've done that before. The minute someone does something I don't like...I get rid of them pronto. Treating people with respect is easy if it's something you want to do.

I find that most of the clients you find on Upwork don't respect freelancers. There's a huge difference between the way clients treat me here compared to those I find elsewhere. That's why I don't care about leaving my comment there for everyone to see. People who've been around will know precisely what I'm talking about.

lysis10 · ‎11-20-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
I'm a copywriter/content writer.

However, this job was $25 to fix the guy's English in a short email.

I consider it a fair price for what I did. However, he was angry because he initially tried to offer me $10. I told him I wanted $25, he agreed, and then only put $10 in escrow.

I said he would need to put $25 in escrow before we start working. (Btw, he sent me an invitation.)

Obviously, he was angry because he wanted something for nothing. I saw his company and what he does for a living. I know what kind of society he lives in and how he's used to treating foreign employees.

These aren't good people.

My mistake was not canceling the contract as soon as I saw $10 in escrow. I've done that before. The minute someone does something I don't like...I get rid of them pronto. Treating people with respect is easy if it's something you want to do.

I find that most of the clients you find on Upwork don't respect freelancers. There's a huge difference between the way clients treat me here compared to those I find elsewhere. That's why I don't care about leaving my comment there for everyone to see. People who've been around will know precisely what I'm talking about.

You can reject an offer before it becomes a contract when you see the escrow amount isn't right. That's what you want to do from now on. The whole point of them doing that is to avoid paying you the full amount.

kbadeau · ‎11-20-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
I'm a copywriter/content writer.

However, this job was $25 to fix the guy's English in a short email.

I consider it a fair price for what I did. However, he was angry because he initially tried to offer me $10. I told him I wanted $25, he agreed, and then only put $10 in escrow.

I said he would need to put $25 in escrow before we start working. (Btw, he sent me an invitation.)

Obviously, he was angry because he wanted something for nothing. I saw his company and what he does for a living. I know what kind of society he lives in and how he's used to treating foreign employees.

These aren't good people.

My mistake was not canceling the contract as soon as I saw $10 in escrow. I've done that before. The minute someone does something I don't like...I get rid of them pronto. Treating people with respect is easy if it's something you want to do.

I find that most of the clients you find on Upwork don't respect freelancers. There's a huge difference between the way clients treat me here compared to those I find elsewhere. That's why I don't care about leaving my comment there for everyone to see. People who've been around will know precisely what I'm talking about.

There are lots of jobs for $30-$50 that I would consider a fair price for what they're asking. I just don't apply to or accept those kinds of jobs, because *those kinds of clients* are the ones who don't respect freelancers and just want to get something down and dirty done cheaply. I don't think that necessarily correlates to geography.

Because the Upwork JSS is so finicky, I have gotten really particular about the kinds of jobs I will apply to or accept an invitation from.

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

The thing is...

If we ignore the small jobs then I don't see any reason to find work on
Upwork. You can find better clients off Upwork and you won't need to pay a
commission. Upwork is the place to go for pocket change. Unfortunately,
it's full of scam artists who want something for free.

I used to go through the listings on a daily basis. However, 99% of them
are garbage. I've managed to find a few that were acceptable...but I don't
think it was a good use of my time picking through the trash.

I'm also tired of being ruthless and canceling contracts the minute someone
does something suspicious...which is just about everyone on Upwork. But,
you see what happens when you don't. You're score suffers.

So, I will leave my comment to **Edited for Community Guidelines** there for everyone to see. If
someone finds it offensive, who cares. There's a 99% chance I wasn't going
to earn any money from the person anyway.

richard_wein · ‎11-21-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
I'm a copywriter/content writer.

However, this job was $25 to fix the guy's English in a short email.

I consider it a fair price for what I did. However, he was angry because he initially tried to offer me $10. I told him I wanted $25, he agreed, and then only put $10 in escrow.

I had a similar experience early in my Upwork career. I received an invitation with a budget of $5. As an experiment I replied, pointing out that my hourly rate was $30, as it was then, and he could contact me again if he was prepared to pay that. To my surprise he agreed. It turned out to be just one hour's work, for which I charged $30, I had reservations about going ahead, but it seemed churlish to refuse after I'd stated a condition and he'd agreed to it. I delivered exactly what I said I would, at the price we agreed, but he marked me down for being too expensive.. at $30.

At least it taught me a good lesson. Now I choose my clients more carefully, and don't even look at jobs under $100 (from new clients). I haven't had another bad client.

iamelizabeth · ‎11-21-2019

Yeah, it's risky to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I've had it work out...but then there are people like this who are just plain nasty and vindictive.

They have the money but treating employees like garbage **Edited for Community Guidelines**. They also have extremely brittle egos. If you make them pay more than what they wanted to pay, they feel they've lost power over you. And they will make you pay somehow.

**Edited for Community Guidelines**.

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

I will be culturally insensitive if the truth demands it. If a potential client has a problem with that, I'm not the person they should work with.

petra_r · ‎11-20-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
I will be culturally insensitive if the truth demands it. If a potential client has a problem with that, I'm not the person they should work with.

Fair enough, maybe it's a good way to filter clients.

(I am sure you are aware that my use of "tricky" and "culturally insensitive" were euphemisms.)

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

Btw...It is possible for me to state that I will only work with clients in western countries?

prestonhunter · ‎11-20-2019

re: "It is possible for me to state that I will only work with clients in western countries?"

How would doing so provide a benefit to you?

If I did not want to work with anybody from North Riverjunction, then I would not state this on my profile page. I would simply check any invitations I received and decline them if they were from North Riverjunction.

iamelizabeth · ‎11-20-2019

I was wondering if there was a way for me to specify which geographic regions I will accept invitations from...

kochubei_valeria · ‎11-20-2019

Hi Elizabeth,

Currently there isn't an option for a freelancer to block invites from clients based on their location. Freelancers can, however, set their profile to private or unavailable if they don't want to receive invites and also set up their job feeds with location filters.

~ Valeria

richard_wein · ‎11-21-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
Btw...It is possible for me to state that I will only work with clients in western countries?

I don't state such a thing. I simply don't apply to jobs from low-wage countries, because I doubt that the client will be prepared pay my rate. (It might be different for writers, as the client may really need a native English speaker.)

iamelizabeth · ‎11-21-2019

I don't submit proposals for jobs posted by clients in low-wage countries either. However, there are some high-wage countries out there that can also be problematic simply because they have different values.

kbadeau · ‎11-21-2019

Elizabeth H wrote:
I don't submit proposals for jobs posted by clients in low-wage countries either. However, there are some high-wage countries out there that can also be problematic simply because they have different values.

It sounds like your previous assessment is correct... Upwork is not the right fit for you.

iamelizabeth · ‎11-26-2019

I'm still getting invitations to interview.

So, my response to the client with extremely poor character hasn't hurt me.

Lesson: You don't need to stay silent when a client treats you unfairly. You also don't need to apologize for calling a client out on his shenanigans.

But, as usual, the clients are acting suspiciously. I've got one now - 5 star rating, over $50,000 spent, great looking webite etc. - who doesn't seem to want to pay me for a writing test.

Now, if I manage to get this client to pay me for the test...should I even take it? After all, he clearly doesn't want to pay for it.

Will I be penalized by a resentful client once again?