Penalties For Under-Bidders?

[danielrayford]

I've been getting interviewed/invitted for a lot of jobs lately but I haven't been getting any hires.I spoke with a couple of the people looking to hire and they've all gave me the same response. Someone came in and bidded so cheap they had no choice but to give them job. If customers are willing to pay $500 set price for jobs, why would someone come and bid $100. Is there any process to stop people from underbidding the market for jobs? 

[prestonhunter]

re: "If customers are willing to pay $500 set price for jobs, why would someone come and bid $100."

Because they want $100.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Is there any process to stop people from underbidding the market for jobs?"

No.

Nor will there be.

However, experienced clients are likely to immediately reject low-ball bidders.

Because they don't have the time and money to waste on the kind of unusable work product such people would send them.

[prestonhunter]

Daniel:

I receive a LOT of invitations from clients.

In fact, most of the time I need to turn my status to UNAVAILABLE, so that I don't get flooded with offers and invitations from people who want my help.

Where do you think a lot of these offers come from?

They come from clients who have hired low-cost freelancers to work for them.

And they weren't really able to use the work those people did for them.

So then the clients search for freelancers with really high rates. And they find me and invite me to work for them.

[petra_r]

Preston, what *IS* it with your constant, endless 2-3-4 posts per response?

Would you like step by step intructions for editing your response so you don't need to keep posting 2-3-4+ posts for every post?

[ravjv]

H Preston, you should consider yourself fortunate that you receive more invitations than you can manage but wouldn't that be because you are a community guru?

This used to happen to me and still does, at odd intervals, in real-life projects where clients go for low-cost service providers, especially in corporate training and offshore software development projects in which a high level of technical knowledge is required. 

And when it comes to me, I usually remark that I am like the "Dirty Harry" called only when projects are failing badly or the client gives up totally with their existing service providers.

It gives a sense of satisfaction but adds unnecessary trauma that had you been called in early, you need not have to suffer, it is like a vendetta that mediocre and low-quality vendors and service providers make merry while the skilled and experienced quality conscious workers have to fight it out.

Underbidders must be mostly adrenaline junkies who psych themselves up thinking that there is a big game of business going on where there is bidding and everybody is watching the bidding like it happens in auctions at the IPL and the Soccer leagues.

[prestonhunter]

re: "you should consider yourself fortunate that you receive more invitations than you can manage but wouldn't that be because you are a community guru?"

There isn't really any connection between our activity in the Community Forum and our activity on the main Upwork site.

Being a "community guru" is a status some of us here have due to how many posts we have written in the Forum. That's all. It doesn't impact getting found by clients or getting hired for jobs.

[eeshwardas]

Ravichandran, 

As a possibly unique response to your following statement:

"Underbidders must be mostly adrenaline junkies who psych themselves up thinking that there is a big game of business going on where there is bidding and everybody is watching the bidding like it happens in auctions at the IPL and the Soccer leagues."

I am in a position where I am forced to underbid despite my expertise.  It is very unfortunate for people colleting Social Security like myself that we are bound by income limitations.

If I were to charge a client what I am worth.  I would lose my Social Security Injury Benefits.  If I were to become re-injured, I would not be able to maintain my children's needs.

Sort of a different twist on this thread that maybe doesn't get much light shed on it in the business world.

With my skills, there are extremely valuable contributions I am capable of making that many clients would benefit from.

It is actually law that American businesses have to accomodate for people like me in the workplace and pay us the going rate, but most businesses don't care to follow this law as it's not really enforced anyway.

The problem I may be facing is that I might be bidding too low and maybe clients are immediately disregarding my proposals.

Do you think I should bid higher to get their attention?

[azchef88]

I supose, however I am skilled and I bid low alot because thats what it takes to get the job!! Just depends, do you want to work..... Or are you only trying to get paid.

[danielrayford]

LOL, our job set & skills are totally different, this post really doesn't apply for you my friend. 

[jr-translation · Accepted solution]

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@Daniel R wrote:

I've been getting interviewed/invitted for a lot of jobs lately but I haven't been getting any hires.I spoke with a couple of the people looking to hire and they've all gave me the same response. Someone came in and bidded so cheap they had no choice but to give them job. If customers are willing to pay $500 set price for jobs, why would someone come and bid $100. Is there any process to stop people from underbidding the market for jobs? 

---

The clients always have the choice. They buy cheep, they probably get cheep. With any luck they realize, leave a feedback feedback that helps to get rid of the cheep bidders and then they pay again to get the job done again.

[surenderkhokhar]

Every user apply according to their skills, work history and project worth.

Tip for you :
Clients always check for work history and consider skills via interviews. if you have suitable skills according to your bid, they will definitely hire you.
if you don't have enough work experience on upwork, you need to improve your interview skills and make sure you fulfill client's need and finish the job with a satisfied result.

[danielrayford]

Actually 100% of all clients who interviewed me was impressed by my skills/portfolio (75% of them sent me invites) and they specifically stated that the reason I didn't get the hire was because someone else was way more cheaper. This has nothing to do with skill set or interviewing skills. 

[ravjv]

Daniel R: Just curious, how did you find this answer that has two typos ("cheep" thrice) and two repeated words ("feedback") and suggests that clients want to get rid of cheap bidders and for that, they are willing to pay again (??) as the best answer?

Your marking the answer

"The clients always have the choice. They buy cheep, they probably get cheep. With any luck they realize, leave a feedback feedback that helps to get rid of the cheep bidders and then they pay again to get the job done again."

as the accepted answer is a little strange when it fails and flouts basic writing rules and doesn't make much sense either.

Why do you think clients would want to first hire a cheap bidder who would fail and then hire an expensive one? If this were true, everybody could start under bidding. 

[danielrayford]

Because this is a dicussion form, not English 1020. The human brain can easily skip minor text errors & repeated words. Her response made simple sense, clients hire cheap and they may get cheap results. It's not that deep, this my first dicussion post and I didn't know people cared about who had the best answer. 

[eeshwardas]

Daniel R,

Right, this is a loose forum.  It isn't required to subscribe to Grammarly to post is it?  🙂

[eeshwardas]

Ravichandran J,

In response to your question "Why do you think clients would want to first hire a cheap bidder who would fail and then hire an expensive one? If this were true, everybody could start under bidding. "

First of all, sorry I havn't figured out how to quote in this board yet.

My response would be, does there have to be an assumption that a cheap bidder will do a bad job?

International freelancers gain currency conversion on cheap bidding for one example. Even though they did not receive education in America, some of them may be very expert in some areas.

In my situation, I have advanced U.S. education plus many many years of practice in programming.  My government imposed imcome limitations force my paychecks to be lower for some time at the risk of financial instability.

I can do an very quality job in programming.  Does this mean that underbidders should be shunned?

[ravjv]

Eric Douglas W

Thanks for your question! I couldn't find how others quote in such a way that it stands out in the reply so we are in the same page on that count, at least so no sorry is required at least to me.

However, I must point out that I didn't ask the question but was simply pondering over it when the notification that a best answer had been selected so I quit writing my reply to read it and found it odd as I couldn't identify the reasons that I or normally, one would expect because we all operate in a logical domain that has some standard and logical explanations in place like unemployment or financial need or as you say some government policies forcing people to sell their skills at a far lower rate.

But you may want to direct your response to Daniel R since I didn't ask the original question so may not be able to select yours as the best answer. Sorry about that!

[eeshwardas]

What about penalties for scammers misrepresenting one's abilities?

Some are qualified to do the job and charge less.  No need to penalize them.

Some are simply cheating, lying and deceiving their way hyping themselves up into making a quick penny.  Weed them out.  Teach them the value of honesty.

The nature of the tech industry is that workers are constantly required to learn new technologies.  It has been standard for major companies to ramp up their employees to better technologies over time.

Upwork could use some allowance and room for workers to learn new skills while getting paid and that may encourage more honesty about current levels of expertiese.  Not sure if this would work.  The art of puffing up a resume is age old also.  Just making a suggestion.

[prestonhunter]

re: "What about penalties for scammers? ...Some are simply cheating, lying and deceiving their way into making a quick penny.  Weed them out."

Well, yes.

Nobody here is defending scammers.

I'm not sure how that relates to freelancers who bid lower on projects than other freelancers...

[eeshwardas]

Oh, okay.  sorry Preston,

You are right.  Maybe what I meant was it is a bit of a scam to say you can do a job well and see it through to finish when you can't.  That is part of this discussion.  Sorry for the bad use of language.  I have edited my answer.  Thank you.

My opinion is something like:

- Good Quality Work + Low Price   ->  Acceptable

- Good Quality Work + Higher Price    ->   Maybe less of a risk for Clients

- Good Potential + Low Price    ->   Give a chance. Increase long term Upwork jobs.

- Low Quality Work + (any price)    ->    I don't want them to take my job either.

[ravjv]

Eeshwardas: I am not sure if the question is directed to me but I chose to answer because I found one point in which I can help, that of low rate or price.

As you noted, foreign exchange benefits overseas bidders and since currency may be devalued against the dollar in that country, their bid would be substantially lower than another who may be a native of that country and hence, may have to put their rate higher to match the cost of living in their country.

Having a lower rate is not in any way an advantage because a profile like mine with the skills and experience and projects that I have, in the software development field including major open source contributions, in the US, may charge a rate of +$100/h or at least, +$50/h but my rate is far lower in comparison. However, in India, my competition may rejoice because they would be charging lesser, so it is all relative and a rate cannot indicate whether one profile is scamming or under-bidding. One of my clients, actually suggested that I could easily double my rate (after the completion of the project, of course!) but I chose not to because the competition, in India, with similar skills, for instance, programming jobs, would be charging still lower. 

"Weeding them out" is not as simple as it sounds. Let me give you an example. There are many ways of ensuring that a contractor, or anyone for that matter, submit all software code to the client.

One common way would be to use Terms and Conditions but that is a legal way i.e, it only protects the client legally.

The loopholes in it are, how effective are the law enforcement agencies in that country, how much time can a client spend (or waste) on disputes 

The other way, as software professionals know, would be to secure proprietary rights over software code with Software Configuration Management tools but since it means specialized knowledge that a client may not have, without hiring a project manager or an SCM manager, the client may simply opt for the T & C option, which means a scammer, who already knows all the tricks to evade or escape the local law in their country, would simply go on a rampage and there would be no way to weed them out.

[eeshwardas]

Ravichandran:  Yes, you are saying good things.  Simply trying to make conversation.

Low price does not necessarily mean low quality.  People in India are acquiring tech skillsets very quickly.

Legal disputes are best if avoided.  Enforcement of tech laws is not strong except for possibly the U.K.  They set a good standard there.

We can maybe agree the reality is that some unwanted things are happening and can be hard to avoid.

These are good points.

Maybe I was simultaneously mixing my issue with the original question in a way that might counter any automatic conclusions made against low bidding.

[ravjv]

Eeshwardas: Glad to be in the conversation and also glad that you brought up mixing up personal issues part.

I don't mind, however, am not sure how the community may react.

I have been in the most ridiculous of situations where I get subjected to extreme time wasting tactics like engaging my time in such a way that I become a guarantee (it is complicated so would like to take it up in some private forum when the opportunity comes), even hidden threats are used as if I and not the government was responsible to get employment for everybody near or around me. 

I don't mind helping others or forwarding a cause, as nobody would if it were done in a civilized manner but since it is done through violations in such a way as to avoid even the need to say "thank you for your help", it becomes an irking issue. 

However, there are desperate elements in every country/city that prove useful to political agendas and only transparency and proactive measures are capable of easing oneself out of tight spots. As you say, enforcement of laws is the key but in large countries, self-organized attitude is the only way to tide over the irksome issues.

[eeshwardas]

Ravichandran,

I'm really not sure what you are saying.  I am sorry, I must have mispoken.  It was not my intention to inspire a response like this from you.  Probably I mispoke.

Would love to have a private chat with you if you know how to initiate one on Upwork.  I don't.

Not really sure what direction you are going with your last post.  Honestly, there must be some misunderstanding.

I am not so much interested in politics and was simply trying to keep a friendly and open vibe.  I am sorry if I mispoke in some way that could have been misinterpreted.

Please forgive me.

[eeshwardas]

Ravichandran,

Your post is very thick and deep.  It is taking time for me to swallow what you might be saying.

Maybe only a little at a time can I really capture.

Wanted to first clarify that what I meant by "personal issues" was nothing other than my personal reason and need for bidding low.

There really is not much "personal issue" discussion needed beyond the scope of this thread concerning bidding prices.

[eeshwardas]

Ravichandra,

The middle of your post is still quite thick for me.  Really having difficulty wrapping my head around some of the concepts you are suggesting.

I'll respond to the closing paragraph a little.

Transparency is definitely very important.  Not sure what you mean by "easing oneself out of tight-spots".

To avoid any misunderstanding, when I was generally glancing at the topic of U.K. tech law, I was merely noting that in the U.K. they actually enforce tech privacy and security laws that many countries, if not every single other country doesn't enforce.

The U.K. has shown bold intent to maintain the privacy and security of their citizens in an online world that has so many risks.  The U.K. has slapped lawsuit fines and penalties against major companies like Google and Microsoft.

It is not that I feel that every single area of the globe should do as the U.K. does.

The U.K. is obviously setting the highest standard in the world for maintining internet privacy and security for their citizens.  Good for them.

Definitely the U.K. attitude towards tech laws will not be enforced throughout the entire globe.  In some regions this lack of enforcement is probably a good thing.

These are only observations made that largely pair with mainstream news with possibly a little personal opinion added in.

It is not my desire to be active in any way politically in any of these matters.  Simply repeating what the news says.

I don't expect the government to change in any way to accomodate my "personal issue" with billing prices.

I simply am trying to find a fit that works for everyone and simultaneously be able to progress in the field that I am most qualified in.

Believe me, I am doing my best to follow all laws and simultaneously tyring to respect other businesses needs to profit.

I have no need to hide anything and if I happen to be doing something wrong, please let me know so I can fix it.

I am not a lawyer and I am not a business major graduate.  I have skills and experience in software development and need certain introductory low pay requirements to be able to ramp up into the industry.

Looks to me like low pay is common on Upwork.  Shouldn't be any problems here.

Some people need to be paid more and don't like missing out on good job oppourtunities that are taken by unqualified low bidders.

Some people (like me) are finding obstacles because the quality clients may tend to have an immediate rejection policy towards low biddres.

Simple as that.  I am not trying to introduce any deeper or more political topics than simply obstacles presented by rate of pay on topic and in scope with the original poster.

Please forgive me if I have spoken unclear.

[vladag]

Hi all,

I'm closing this thread for further comments, thank you for your participation.