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robtboyle
Community Member

Petition to Not Let Clients See Payment History

Does anyone else find it crazy that when you make a bid on a project, that potential client can then see your entire payment history? Even if you've chosen to make it hidden?

 

Let's say you took on some projects at a rate significantly lower than your normal rate, in an effort to build your UpWork reputation. Then you make a bid on a project for your normal rate and a client sees your history. This is going to skew their opinion... obviously.

Most of the work I do is outside of UpWork, but whenever I do return to this site I'm blown away by how much preference is given to clients. 

ACCEPTED SOLUTION
wlyonsatl
Community Member

All potential new clients should be able to see is your current pricing offer for their project. If that pricing meets their requirements, that's really all they need to know.

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39 REPLIES 39
tlsanders
Community Member


Robert B wrote:

Does anyone else find it crazy that when you make a bid on a project, that potential client can then see your entire payment history? Even if you've chosen to make it hidden?

 

Let's say you took on some projects at a rate significantly lower than your normal rate, in an effort to build your UpWork reputation. Then you make a bid on a project for your normal rate and a client sees your history. This is going to skew their opinion... obviously.

Most of the word I do is outside of UpWork, but whenever I do return to this site I'm blown away by how much preference is given to clients. 


In other words, you think if clients know the truth, that will hurt you?

 

If you've taken low-end work to "build your reputation," that's relevant information for the client, since if it's a higher-end client the ratings you've received are irrelevant.

I think that's a bit of a straw-man argument. I'm also not talking about ratings.

 

If a client sees that you've done cheaper work in the past, it's obviously going to put you in a worse position for negotiating a fee.

 

Exacerbating this is the fact that unfortunately, when it comes to graphic design & branding, most of the projects I see are posted by new, inexperienced clients with no idea for the typical cost of high-end design and brand development. 


Robert B wrote:

I think that's a bit of a straw-man argument. I'm also not talking about ratings.

 

You may not be talking about ratings, but when a client looks at your profile and relies on the ratings there, he/she should be able to tell whether those ratings hav eany meaning whatsoever in terms of how you're likely to perform on the project at hand.

 

If a client sees that you've done cheaper work in the past, it's obviously going to put you in a worse position for negotiating a fee.

 

True. Doing bottom of the barrel work when "building up" is a terrible business strategy.

 


Tiffany S wrote:

Robert B wrote:

I think that's a bit of a straw-man argument. I'm also not talking about ratings.

 

You may not be talking about ratings, but when a client looks at your profile and relies on the ratings there, he/she should be able to tell whether those ratings hav eany meaning whatsoever in terms of how you're likely to perform on the project at hand.

 

If a client sees that you've done cheaper work in the past, it's obviously going to put you in a worse position for negotiating a fee.

 

True. Doing bottom of the barrel work when "building up" is a terrible business strategy.

 


This is my first time posting on this forum and I have to admit I'm a little thrown by your judgemental tone. I think my OP is a pretty reasonable gripe about the site. 

To be clear, I'm not talking about "bottom of the barrel" work. Also again, not at all talking about ratings.

Robert.

 

If you're going to post here you'll to learn to ignore the smarmy, condescending and often clueless responses you'll sometimes get. 

 

You'll run your Upwork business in the way that makes the most sense to you. Most posters here will try to be constructive in their responses; other won't.

 

Just ignore the ones who won't.

You're a good dude Will.

I was reflexively opposed to this showing initially as well. I am one who finds these kinds of details to be private and between client and freelancer. If you engage a consulting company outside of UW, you don't get to see what they charged others. In fact it is typically stated in those contracts that you are not allowed to disclose this information. So I understand the feelings people would have on this topic.

 

Having said the above, and I have long since come to terms with the fact that UW desires this kind of transparency. I have certainly raised my rates over the years and I can honestly say that I have never once been questioned about it. If I were, I would answer honestly depending on what they are looking at. The fact is that I trade on my experience, success and client testimonials. I don't concern myself with what others in my space charge nor does my transparent pricing history factor into my discussions with possible clients. Again, I understand the concern, but I have never let it get in the way and I don't believe it has had any kind of negative impact to my working on this platform.   


Scott B wrote:

I was reflexively opposed to this showing initially as well. I am one who finds these kinds of details to be private and between client and freelancer. If you engage a consulting company outside of UW, you don't get to see what they charged others. In fact it is typically stated in those contracts that you are not allowed to disclose this information. So I understand the feelings people would have on this topic.

 

Having said the above, and I have long since come to terms with the fact that UW desires this kind of transparency. I have certainly raised my rates over the years and I can honestly say that I have never once been questioned about it. If I were, I would answer honestly depending on what they are looking at. The fact is that I trade on my experience, success and client testimonials. I don't concern myself with what others in my space charge nor does my transparent pricing history factor into my discussions with possible clients. Again, I understand the concern, but I have never let it get in the way and I don't believe it has had any kind of negative impact to my working on this platform.   


Thanks for the thoughtful response Scott. Ultimately at this point I only return to this platform to cherry pick the rare high-end client that pops up. I can't say that I've ever had an actual issue due to this feature, it was only recently brought to my attention and I was a little stunned.

It's also worth noting that unless the system has recently been changed, those with hidden earnings are screened out if clients apply income-related filters in searching for freelancers to invite. For instance, if the client restricts the search to freelancers who have ever earned at least one dollar on the platform, you'll be excluded from that search because your profile doesn't indicate any earnings.


Robert B wrote:

 

To be clear, I'm not talking about "bottom of the barrel" work. Also again, not at all talking about ratings.


Yes, you already mentioned that you weren't talking about ratings, and I already acknowledged that you'd said that. But, no matter how many times you repeat it, it won't change the fact that when your earnings are hidden, clients are unable to make any meaningful use of the ratings and reviews on your profile. That's bad for clients and bad for Upwork. 


Robert B wrote:

Tiffany S wrote:

Robert B wrote:

I think that's a bit of a straw-man argument. I'm also not talking about ratings.

 

You may not be talking about ratings, but when a client looks at your profile and relies on the ratings there, he/she should be able to tell whether those ratings hav eany meaning whatsoever in terms of how you're likely to perform on the project at hand.

 

If a client sees that you've done cheaper work in the past, it's obviously going to put you in a worse position for negotiating a fee.

 

True. Doing bottom of the barrel work when "building up" is a terrible business strategy.

 


This is my first time posting on this forum and I have to admit I'm a little thrown by your judgemental tone. I think my OP is a pretty reasonable gripe about the site. 

To be clear, I'm not talking about "bottom of the barrel" work. Also again, not at all talking about ratings.


One person's unvarnished, candid observation is another person's "judgemental tone." You opened the discussion, it's a bit disingenuous to take issue with directly expressed input offered by a very successful, experienced FL.

 

This is a fairly typical thread, insofar as it is eliciting a range of opinions on the topic at hand as well as attracting those who take every opportunity to grind their particular ax, regardless of the subject under discussion.

Anonymous-User
Not applicable

I don't think it does actually. I have my previous earnings hidden but when you apply to a project, that client can then see your past history.


Robert B wrote:

I don't think it does actually. I have my previous earnings hidden but when you apply to a project, that client can then see your past history.


I can see your earnings just by looking at your profile.


Heaven H wrote:

Robert B wrote:

I don't think it does actually. I have my previous earnings hidden but when you apply to a project, that client can then see your past history.


I can see your earnings just by looking at your profile.


Strange... previously had that box checked but was now un-checked? But thanks for calling it out. 

 

Regardless, attached is what I'm referencing.

Anonymous-User
Not applicable

I'm guessing you didn't read it. 


Earnings Privacy

As a Plus plan member, you can opt to hide your contracts' rates and total billings on your profile's work history. This will hide them from the general public and the marketplace, but not from your proposals. Once you submit a proposal or accept an invitation, that potential client will see your past contracts' rates and totals. Your profile rate advertised at the top will always be visible.

For Basic plan members, it isn't possible to hide rates or earnings on your Upwork profile, but you can upgrade to a Plus plan or limit others' access to your profile. Please be aware that if you restrict your profile visibility, you will also limit your ability for clients to find you in the marketplace.

If you downgrade from a Plus plan to a Basic plan, your earnings privacy will automatically default back to public view. You can reset it to private if you choose to upgrade again.

To hide your earnings on your freelancer profile

  1. Go to Settings > Profile Settings
  2. Click the box for Earning Privacy


No petition necessary.


Cairenn R wrote:

I'm guessing you didn't read it. 


Earnings Privacy

As a Plus plan member, you can opt to hide your contracts' rates and total billings on your profile's work history. This will hide them from the general public and the marketplace, but not from your proposals. Once you submit a proposal or accept an invitation, that potential client will see your past contracts' rates and totals. Your profile rate advertised at the top will always be visible.

He's looking to hide them from the clients he sends proposals to.

Anonymous-User
Not applicable

And it clearly states he cannot do it the way he wants. He's received the best advice from some of the most seasoned, highest-earning, top-rated FLs on UW as to why hiding earnings in a bad idea. They didn't become top-rated by hiding.   

 

What he does with it is his choice. He can provide suggestions direct to UW. Let it go.  

 

wlyonsatl
Community Member

All potential new clients should be able to see is your current pricing offer for their project. If that pricing meets their requirements, that's really all they need to know.

versailles
Community Member


Robert B wrote:

Does anyone else find it crazy that when you make a bid on a project, that potential client can then see your entire payment history?


Your earnings have more value as marketing tool than you imagine.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


Rene K wrote:

Robert B wrote:

Does anyone else find it crazy that when you make a bid on a project, that potential client can then see your entire payment history?


Your earnings have more value as marketing tool than you imagine.


Hey Rene, would you mind clarifying this?


Robert B wrote:

Rene K wrote:

Robert B wrote:

Does anyone else find it crazy that when you make a bid on a project, that potential client can then see your entire payment history?


Your earnings have more value as marketing tool than you imagine.


Hey Rene, would you mind clarifying this?


Behind every client is a real person that needs to be able to trust a complete stranger on the internet with e.g. sensitive business information, trade secrets, and finally his money.

So what builds trust with a client? Obviously, a good history with great feedback, experience with similar projects, and so on. A client with a larger project will be more comfortable with people who have done larger projects, a client with a very small job will look for a freelancer doing smaller jobs. It is simply human nature to look for the familiar.

Anybody who hides their earnings loses this tool for the client to assess what size projects they are usually doing. 


Martina P wrote:

Anybody who hides their earnings loses this tool for the client to assess what size projects they are usually doing. 


Yes, I absolutely agree. I consistently charge the same hourly rate to all of my clients - both on and off Upwork - because I think that it's a fair price considering my experience and skills. My prices don't go up and down according to what the client says that they want to pay - it would be incredibly unfair to charge higher prices to my good clients and then lower my prices for cheap clients. And I *want* potential clients to see my rate so that they don't waste my time and theirs by inviting me to bid on low-budget projects. 

 

I also value the transparency that comes from being able to see the client's buying history. A lot of clients will check off the "Willing to pay higher prices for experts" box, but then I look at their history and if they've paid all of their previous freelancers $5/hour, then I know not to waste any connects.

 


Robert B wrote:

Rene K wrote:

Robert B wrote:

Does anyone else find it crazy that when you make a bid on a project, that potential client can then see your entire payment history?


Your earnings have more value as marketing tool than you imagine.


Hey Rene, would you mind clarifying this?


Further to what Martina and Christine have said:

 

Freelancers who hide their rates immediately send warning bells to any client who stumbles upon their profile... I see a freelancer who hides their earnings and know that I will not invite that person.

 

Why? Several reasons:

 

1) I wonder what they are trying to hide.  If the jobs they have worked recently were at a much lower rate than what they asking, I get the feeling that they are trying to con me. This does not apply when rate increases are step by step over months and years of course.

2) If I am smart and / or can be bothered, I can still find the rate(s) paid. But I resent the freelancer for making me have to be smart / search

3) Because I can not judge if I can afford the freelancer

4) Because I (personally) think that people who have a much higher profile rate than they work at are either a bit clueless, will be easy to negotiate down, try some dumb "this week 30% off" stunt etc.

5) The same applies to people whose hourly rate is all over the shop from job to job. How can one hour of their time cost this much on Monday and that much on Wednesday?

 

I am *NOT* saying that all of the above are "fair" reasons for a client to walk away from a freelancer's profile, but clients need very little to be spooked, and with such a huge number of freelancers to choose from, any little hint of a sign of a whiff of a red flag can be enough.

 

 

 


Petra R wrote:

1) I wonder what they are trying to hide.  If the jobs they have worked recently were at a much lower rate than what they asking, I get the feeling that they are trying to con me. This does not apply when rate increases are step by step over months and years of course.


Yes - this, a hundred times over. It just strikes me as dishonest when someone is trying to hide their rates and place bids according to their views on what the client is willing to pay. However, I see nothing wrong with placing a bid and being open to negotiate how much work you're willing to do while staying within the client's budget. I've sometimes seen projects in my own category in which a client is asking to have, say, a 100-page book created for $300. I'm not willing to lay out 100 pages for that amount of money, so sometimes I'll offer to just create a 2-3 page template for them and then they can lay out the rest of the document themselves. There are loads of work-arounds that don't involve compromising your rates or your integrity.

This has devolved into a discussion about if you should hide your rate, but the OP was quite clearly asking why he can't hide his rate...you can list out the reasons all day about why you think you shouldn't hide your rate, but that is still not an answer as to why we don't have the option to hide it completley.

 

I have mine hidden, I guess it's my years of IT contracting...the general consensus in IT contracting is always that you don't talk about your rate with anyone but your agency and the person who signs your timesheets.  On here I've had periods with it visible and periods with it hidden and have noticed little difference to be honest though.


Christopher H wrote:

This has devolved into a discussion about if you should hide your rate, but the OP was quite clearly asking why he can't hide his rate...y


He asked.

Robert asked.jpg

hah ok fair point

Christine,

 

If a freelancer is not at all concerned with figuring out "what the client is willing to pay," they are not approaching their freelancing as a business.

 

Clients come to Upwork to find out, among other things, what their cost will be for completion of their project to a certain standard of quality. All other things being equal, if more than one freelancer fulfills all of the client's criteria, the freelancer who offers the lowest total cost is most likely to win the project. That's basic economics, assuming clients are rational. (No snickers here, please.)

 

I respect anyone's willingness to help others without worrying about maximizing their own income, but that is just an admirable form of charity.

 

Freelancers who want to maximize their Upwork income  should charge as much as they can in order to stay as busy as they want and earn whatever level of income they wish. 

 

 


Will L wrote:

Christine,

 

If a freelancer is not at all concerned with figuring out "what the client is willing to pay," they are not approaching their freelancing as a business.

 

Clients come to Upwork to find out, among other things, what their cost will be for completion of their project to a certain standard of quality. All other things being equal, if more than one freelancer fulfills all of the client's criteria, the freelancer who offers the lowest total cost is most likely to win the project. That's basic economics, assuming clients are rational. (No snickers here, please.)

 

I respect anyone's willingness to help others without worrying about maximizing their own income, but that is just an admirable form of charity.

 

Freelancers who want to maximize their Upwork income  should charge as much as they can in order to stay as busy as they want and earn whatever level of income they wish. 

 

 


Freelancing is my sole source of support and has been for more years than I'll ever admit out loud again. I set my fee on a particular project according to what it's worth to me, which is driven by a combination of factors. My hourly rate varies (within a range) depending on scope and schedule. I don't charge less to clients with less money to spend and more to those who are willing and able to pay more than a fair price. On UW, especially, there are opportunities to overcharge clients who have never undertaken custom research before and are naive about the costs relative to the value. I've never done that and never will, not least because it would bite me later, when they learned more and realized they'd been taken. I'd rather charge fairly and cultivate a long-term relationship. They may or may not have additional work but I certainly want them saying positive things any time they have occasion to mention their experience working with me and the value I brought to their business.

 

I think Christine and I are on the same page. I can't figure out if Will deliberately miscontrued C's comments or is really advocating charging the most you can get away with on every single project.


Phyllis G wrote:

I think Christine and I are on the same page. I can't figure out if Will deliberately miscontrued C's comments or is really advocating charging the most you can get away with on every single project.


Yes, that's what Will's comment sounded like, and that's how the OP's question came across to me as well - how can I get away with charging clients as much or as little as I want, without my other clients finding out.


Phyllis G wrote:

I can't figure out if Will deliberately miscontrued C's comments

It is what he does.


Will L wrote:

Christine,

 

If a freelancer is not at all concerned with figuring out "what the client is willing to pay," they are not approaching their freelancing as a business.

 

That's ridiculous. I (like many other successful freelancers here) have no interest in what any particular client is willing to pay. My services cost what they cost. Many clients are unwilling to pay my rates. That's fine. That means they're not part of my market.


Will L wrote:

Christine,

 

If a freelancer is not at all concerned with figuring out "what the client is willing to pay," they are not approaching their freelancing as a business.

 

Clients come to Upwork to find out, among other things, what their cost will be for completion of their project to a certain standard of quality. All other things being equal, if more than one freelancer fulfills all of the client's criteria, the freelancer who offers the lowest total cost is most likely to win the project. That's basic economics, assuming clients are rational. (No snickers here, please.)

 

I respect anyone's willingness to help others without worrying about maximizing their own income, but that is just an admirable form of charity.

 

Freelancers who want to maximize their Upwork income  should charge as much as they can in order to stay as busy as they want and earn whatever level of income they wish. 

 

____________________________________

 

I never try to figure out what a client wants to pay. I expect to be paid appropriately for the skills I have. If a client wants to pay my price for them, well and good; if he or she can't or won't, I never scratch my head about it.  


 

Interesting discussion all around. However I'm far from convinced that forgoing this very basic form of privacy is at all justified.

 

I've just been notified that my profile (which hasn't been changed in many months) has just been flagged and set to private because I included personal contact info (my portfolio site...). I have to imagine this is because this post either drew the ire of UpWork personnel or else someone on the thread flagged my profile. 



Robert B wrote:

Interesting discussion all around. However I'm far from convinced that forgoing this very basic form of privacy is at all justified.

 

I've just been notified that my profile (which hasn't been changed in many months) has just been flagged and set to private because I included personal contact info (my portfolio site...). I have to imagine this is because this post either drew the ire of UpWork personnel or else someone on the thread flagged my profile. 



More likely it simply drew UW's attention, at which point they were obliged to hold you to the same rule as the rest of us: no external contact info in our profile. I can't believe you're complaining about being caught breaking one of the most fundamental rules on the platform.


Phyllis G wrote:

I've just been notified that my profile (which hasn't been changed in many months) has just been flagged and set to private because I included personal contact info (my portfolio site...). I have to imagine this is because this post either drew the ire of UpWork personnel or else someone on the thread flagged my profile. 



More likely it simply drew UW's attention, at which point they were obliged to hold you to the same rule as the rest of us: no external contact info in our profile. I can't believe you're complaining about being caught breaking one of the most fundamental rules on the platform.


In fairness to him he is reporting what happened, rather than complaining.

But that said... Contact data on a profile is a No-No and something that harms us all, so whoever slaped him over the back of the head and asked him to remove it, should be thanked.

 

I genuinely didn't think that linking to my website which simply displays my portfolio was against the terms of service. 

 

I'm not going to participate in the fool's errand that is attempting to discern the motivation of others on the internet, but this first experience on this forum has left me disheartened. At best I guess I was hoping for a little solidarity, or at least empathy, from fellow freelancers. Instead I feel as though I've only been met with condescension and vague hostility. I guess that's on me though, a lesson learned.

Robert, I think much of how you feel your issues have been met here is a result of the fact that those of us who have been here for a while have seen these issues raised dozens of times, very often by people who have just jumped in, have barely used the platform, and felt like the best way to start would be coming in and telling Upwork and everyone who has been using the platform for years how they're doing it wrong.

 

Very often, those people haven't bothered to read even the basic rules of the platform or learn how it works (for instance, not knowing about the prohibition on outside links). You may take that as contentious, but it actually isn't intended that way--I'm merely pointing out that the reason for what you're perceiving as a negative, condescending attitude here is likely at least in part because "I haven't bothered to educate myself about the platform at all but I have a better way" is a very tired refrain around here.

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