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philomenaaah
Community Member

Potential client refuses to give written details about the project

Hi there,

 

I didn't wanted to bother you guys again but I don't know what is happening on people's head.

 

I had a potential client who wanted me to start working with him by doing an article test (most of these contacts end with people asking me an article for free or just want to pay $5, as I stated before here), but he refuses to send me the additional information (written) that I asked already for several times though Upwork (more than 3 times) about the project. He says he is available for a call at Upwork but he is not available to provide me written informations at the message system of Upwork and keep giving me very (very) vague answers like... "I tell you after", "We have good reviews that speak for themselves" and so on. But he wanted me to start working for him today (I'm the only one who think this is insane?). And his arguments are that Upwork developed the call system to this kind of situations, to replace the message system, which I believe it's not true. The call system can be a complement to facilitate the communication or make a call interview, but doesn't replace the conditions/guidelines and discussions about the contract.

 

I would never accept any type of contract without everything discussed, written and stated, mainly after the vague answers this client gave me several times, so I told him that unfortunately since he didn't want to invest time explaining his project I feel that he was making me lose my time and that I would not work with him. I know, I'm a very direct person, but I told him this in a polite way. He didn't liked and kept insisting to have a call and not giving any written details.

 

We couldn't find an agreement, so the client was very upset with me because I didn't accepted his conditions and I told him that it didn't make sense to continue discussing this anymore.

 

Doesn't seems legit to me that someone think that can force me to accept something without knowing exactly what is it based on a simple call and nothing written.

 

I'm trying to find more information online at the Terms of Service about this but I cannot find anything that can help me to clarify this. For me this is a question of common sense and attitude, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something here... Am I?

ACCEPTED SOLUTION

re: "...don't waste your time trying to negotiate these situations. Decide how you will work and drop anyone who doesn't conform to your standards"

 

When I go to a store, I don't tell the clerk: "You only have 1-gallon and half-gallon containers of milk. Can I get a 3-gallon container?"

 

Nor do I ask the clerk for a free test gallon of milk, because I'm planning to buy more milk later.

 

There are certainly places in the world, including on Upwork, where negotiations may take place. But as a freelancer, I need to decide what I offer, and what my rates are, and what I don't negotiate about.

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27 REPLIES 27
yitwail
Community Member

I don't think you're missing anything. Just this week I had a client who wanted to use Upwork calling but I declined and suggested text messaging or Skype. He hired me anyway, and approved the milestone soon after I finished the task and indicated he may hire me again, so it all worked out.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce
tta192
Community Member

Discuss the project over the phone is not an issue - as long as all relevant details make it into the written description of the job when you start the contract. 

You can write the descripton yourself following the conversation and send it to the client to use it directly as-is. 

At the end of the day it's just a test $5 project and you can get a bad rating no matter what's in the contract.


Andrei T wrote:

Discuss the project over the phone is not an issue - as long as all relevant details make it into the written description of the job when you start the contract. 

You can write the descripton yourself following the conversation and send it to the client to use it directly as-is. 

At the end of the day it's just a test $5 project and you can get a bad rating no matter what's in the contract.


Yes, that's what he refuses, to write anything. He was just trying to push me to write an article test today and didn't even told me anything about paying anything for that.

 

Of course that I can always resume what we spoke on the phone and write it myself, but it's his attitude, you know? He seems not to want to invest time explaining anything and if it's like that before starting a contract, imagine how it would be to clarify details during the contract. Inevitably, he would have to write something... I don't feel comfortable to work with someone who act like this. So, if a client shows that he is not available to discuss his project with me since the beginning, it's a "No!" for me. It's not my type of client.

 

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Don't even think about working with a client who won't/can't clearly describe the work they want from you.

re: "I didn't wanted to bother you guys again but..."

 

That is what the Forum is for... letting Upwork users talk about Upwork topics. This is a talkative, chatty bunch. As a whole, the body of Forum participants clearly loves to talk about Upwork and offer their advice. So no need to feel reluctant about "bothering" us...



Preston H wrote:

re: "I didn't wanted to bother you guys again but..."

 

That is what the Forum is for... letting Upwork users talk about Upwork topics. This is a talkative, chatty bunch. As a whole, the body of Forum participants clearly loves to talk about Upwork and offer their advice. So no need to feel reluctant about "bothering" us...


Thank you so much for your kindly words, Preston.


Will L wrote:

Don't even think about working with a client who won't/can't clearly describe the work they want from you.


Thank you for your words, Will. You know, recently it has been happening so many strange situations to me around here... that sometimes I question myself if I'm getting crazy... Thank you.

Filomena  -  It sounds as though the guy is just trying to get you to do some work for free. You don't need someone like that.


Joan S wrote:

Filomena  -  It sounds as though the guy is just trying to get you to do some work for free. You don't need someone like that.


I think so, Joan. When they are very vague, the most part of the times, end with them asking free work.


Filomena S wrote:

Will L wrote:

Don't even think about working with a client who won't/can't clearly describe the work they want from you.


Thank you for your words, Will. You know, recently it has been happening so many strange situations to me around here... that sometimes I question myself if I'm getting crazy... Thank you.


I can't speak to if you're getting crazy, but this client sounds like he's more trouble than he's worth. Good call sticking to your gut and walking away from him. 

mtngigi
Community Member

"We couldn't find an agreement, so the client was very upset with me because I didn't accepted his conditions and I told him that it didn't make sense to continue discussing this anymore"

 

When potential clients starts talking crazy talk, end it right then and there. Thank them for their interest, block them, and forget about it. It's not worth your time and energy with someone who demonstrates right away what a nightmare they'll be to work with.

 

I'm trying to find more information online at the Terms of Service about this but I cannot find anything that can help me to clarify this. For me this is a question of common sense and attitude, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something here... Am I?"

 

There's no TOS for learning how to work with PITA clients - it requires patience, experience, and a willingness to let go of potential work when it's obvious the client wil be difficult to work with. So what if he's upset ... you're probably not the first he's done this to. If you don't do this, look at a client's previous work history and feedback - with someone like this, there will be plenty of clues.


Virginia F wrote:

When potential clients starts talking crazy talk, end it right then and there. Thank them for their interest, block them, and forget about it. It's not worth your time and energy with someone who demonstrates right away what a nightmare they'll be to work with.

 

There's no TOS for learning how to work with PITA clients - it requires patience, experience, and a willingness to let go of potential work when it's obvious the client wil be difficult to work with. So what if he's upset ... you're probably not the first he's done this to. If you don't do this, look at a client's previous work history and feedback - with someone like this, there will be plenty of clues.


I was trying to be polite and give the client all the possibilities to prove me that he deserve my trust, since he was asking me a test article and never mention payment for that. And since the beginning it sounded like a nightmare.

 

My question regarding the TOS is that if a call replaces a written discussion and offer any kind of guarantee to the freelancer if the client doesn't want to write an answer.

ladyelexia
Community Member

I lot of clients want a call to see if you sound and speak in the way that you present yourself online via profile or interview. You might be surprised at how many fakes are out there that get caught simply by doing a voice call. He is keeping all communication on the platform, so it is unlikely there  is anything fishy going on. 


Heather H wrote:

I lot of clients want a call to see if you sound and speak in the way that you present yourself online via profile or interview. You might be surprised at how many fakes are out there that get caught simply by doing a voice call. He is keeping all communication on the platform, so it is unlikely there  is anything fishy going on. 


For me it's not a problem to have a call, at all, as I said before. The question here is that the person asked me twice to produce a test article without mention if he pretended to pay for that or not and demanding a delivery at the same day, he gave very vague answers and don't wanted to write anything. This sounded to me like a big red flag. It's the whole attitude, you know?

petra_r
Community Member

I have no problem with doing a voice call and don't see that request as being anything out of the ordinary. As has been mentioned, it's a good and legitimate way for a client to get an idea whether the person on the profile is actually the person they say they are.

 

But I would never get into a lengthy to-and-from with a prospective client like that.

 

As soon as I get the feeling that a client might be more trouble than the job is worth, I politely withdraw my proposal and wish them good luck with their project.

 


Petra R wrote:

I have no problem with doing a voice call and don't see that request as being anything out of the ordinary. As has been mentioned, it's a good and legitimate way for a client to get an idea whether the person on the profile is actually the person they say they are.

 

But I would never get into a lengthy to-and-from with a prospective client like that.

 

As soon as I get the feeling that a client might be more trouble than the job is worth, I politely withdraw my proposal and wish them good luck with their project.

 


You've got the point, and that was exactly what I did and the guy just started making accusations and trying to convince me to do a test article promissing something that he doesn't want to talk about now. I cannot trust someone like this.

tlbp
Community Member

When you do not yet have a contract, don't waste your time trying to negotiate these situations. Decide how you will work and drop anyone who doesn't conform to your standards. Why go back and forth with this guy who was trying to get cheap or free work anyway?

I don't know that it is the right approach for the original poster... but I can say that there ARE clients out there who don't really know what they want and/or are very vague... who can still be very good clients.

 

If a client is willing to hire a freelancer with an hourly contract, and let that freelancer bill all the time they spend working with the client... then that is an honest, good client.

 

I have had clients who did not waste any time before hiring me, and then paid for my time as they asked questions, explored ideas, had me work on various things... some of which didn't necessarily pan out.

 

This is essentially hiring a consultant or expert. The type of work may seem unorthodox or unusual, and it may very well not fit the preferences of every freelancer. But this type of work can be profitable financially for the freelancer. And presumably beneficial for the client as well... although the client may keep things "close to the vest" and never explain everything to the freelancer.

 

The key here is that the "vague" client is not wasting an unpaid potential freelancer's time... the client is paying for a freelancer's time from the onset.


Preston H wrote:

I don't know that it is the right approach for the original poster... but I can say that there ARE clients out there who don't really know what they want and/or are very vague... who can still be very good clients.

 

(...)

 

The key here is that the "vague" client is not wasting an unpaid potential freelancer's time... the client is paying for a freelancer's time from the onset.


Yes, true. I had a few clients like that, with calls and Skype meetings and everyting. But they had a totally different approach since the beginning, by trying to put me comfortable since the beginning. This guy just demanded work done and never talked about payment or a contract.



Tonya P wrote:

When you do not yet have a contract, don't waste your time trying to negotiate these situations. Decide how you will work and drop anyone who doesn't conform to your standards. Why go back and forth with this guy who was trying to get cheap or free work anyway?


True. That's why I was asking for more detailed information about the project, to understand his intentions.

re: "...don't waste your time trying to negotiate these situations. Decide how you will work and drop anyone who doesn't conform to your standards"

 

When I go to a store, I don't tell the clerk: "You only have 1-gallon and half-gallon containers of milk. Can I get a 3-gallon container?"

 

Nor do I ask the clerk for a free test gallon of milk, because I'm planning to buy more milk later.

 

There are certainly places in the world, including on Upwork, where negotiations may take place. But as a freelancer, I need to decide what I offer, and what my rates are, and what I don't negotiate about.


Preston H wrote:

re: "...don't waste your time trying to negotiate these situations. Decide how you will work and drop anyone who doesn't conform to your standards"

 

Nor do I ask the clerk for a free test gallon of milk, because I'm planning to buy more milk later.

 

There are certainly places in the world, including on Upwork, where negotiations may take place. But as a freelancer, I need to decide what I offer, and what my rates are, and what I don't negotiate about.


I totally agree with you Preston.

rachel_underhill
Community Member

I am having the same exact issue just today. After insisting to only communicate through either Skype or Google Hangouts, the client is refusing to answer any questions regarding the nature of the actual work. I refused to go into Google Hangouts and, instead emailed only. All the client keeps saying is the same general information. Just wants "blog writing" or editing/proofreading. They keep just saying that they want 1500 words and are offering 12 cents per word. The "topics and keywords will be revealed when they need them written". 

 

Is this normal?? I am brand new to Upwork but not at all new to writing for clients. I've never had anyone refuse to give a general overview of what they are seeking. This client is also brand new on Upwork, so no history or anything. 

 

Is there a procedure for reporting or flagging potentially fraudulent clients? This just all seems so fishy.

 

Any help appreciated.

Better stay away from that client, unless they give you a valid reason for the secrecy and don't produce any evidence of intent of fraud whatsoever.

 

 

Hi Rachel,

 

Thanks for flagging this job to us. I've checked and it looks like the job has already been taken down because it was in violation of Upwork ToS and action has been taken on the client account. 

 

Please, check this help article for more information on how to use the flag option found on each job post or message to report any suspicious or inappropriate content. Also, check out this post for more tips on how to avoid questionable jobs.

 

Thank you!

~ Bojan
Upwork


Rachel U wrote:

I am having the same exact issue just today. After insisting to only communicate through either Skype or Google Hangouts, the client is refusing to answer any questions regarding the nature of the actual work. I refused to go into Google Hangouts and, instead emailed only. All the client keeps saying is the same general information. Just wants "blog writing" or editing/proofreading. They keep just saying that they want 1500 words and are offering 12 cents per word. The "topics and keywords will be revealed when they need them written". 

 

Is this normal?? I am brand new to Upwork but not at all new to writing for clients. I've never had anyone refuse to give a general overview of what they are seeking. This client is also brand new on Upwork, so no history or anything. 

 

Is there a procedure for reporting or flagging potentially fraudulent clients? This just all seems so fishy.

 

Any help appreciated.


________________________

 

It is fishy. Google Hangouts is THE red flag, particularly for newcomers,and  not many are offered anything like $0.12 per word (even if they deserve to get that). So flag the job and move on.  

The job was removed by Upwork. Which is good. The little bit I did manage
to learn didn't sound at all like what was actually being asked for. It was
really strange and confusing. Thanks, everyone!
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