Potential clients never hiring

bailesham · ‎11-12-2020

Hi Community,

I've kept this to myself for a few weeks now but enough is enough.

I have spent so much time, money and effort individually writing proposals the last few weeks. I have applied for over 100 jobs since my introduction here on Upwork and i would say i have only been contacted by at most 7% of those jobs. I know this is due to many reasons for example im starting out here and have to build trust, my job success is invisible, and many more.

A very reoccuring scenario is this:

Potential Client shows interest in my talent and makes contact.
Potential Client asks lots and lots of questions to which i answer because i want to show the client i am qualified for the position.
Potential Client wants to set up a video call for more 'information gathering' as they call it.
Potential Client waits for days and days and gathers extreme amounts of information from all the small fish like me who are struggling to even get a job on here because up until a few days ago my job success was hidden.
Potential client gets back after days and says something has disrupted the development of their job/hire and they wont be continuing.

So once all the information is gathered and the potential client is happy they have everything they need then they back out. Every single bit of info was gathered for free and the time wasted for the potential freelancer will never be compensated or given back.

I also had one potential client who asked me for a specific sample of work to be put together, later realising that he done the same to 15 other freelancers and took all of these 'ideas' and ran to his in house design department with them, knowone was hired and knowone got paid for the sample ideas. I suspect all the freelancers done the same as me as they thought this was a potential job for them. I should have tagged this as suspicious but im still learning the ropes here.

Any advice you guys can offer me against this sort of 'information gathering' for free would be great.

Is there anything in place for REAL clients who have full intentions of hiring? Shouldnt there be a connect style system for REAL clients as there is for REAL freelancers.

I find that there is no equality here on the platform. This platform is extremely advantageous for the potential client and not for the freelancer who is desperately hunting jobs.

In my opinion something needs to be done about it.

Im considering moving my talent elsewhere.

A very frustrated freelancer with no current jobs.

sein_mac · ‎11-12-2020

Hi Daniel,

I understand your fustration. I have noticed recently a decrease in quality job posts and an increase in job posts that never result in a hire. I can't give you spefic advice but I can say that in my experience it is very important to learn to spot and not apply to job posts that are likely not going to result in a hire. Who clients have hired, what the reviews are like, the average of rate of pay and the average rate of hires can usually tell you whether you will be compatable with a client and whether its worth your effort to apply to their job post.

Being strung along by a "potential client" is quiet diheartening and extremely disrepectfull. Its absolutely happened to me and I have gotten better at spotting lies. If a client obviously breaks TOS or something seems very suspicious I flag or report if nessacary. I agree some kind of better vetting on clients or safe gaurding feature is becoming increaseling important on the platform. I hope this helps you and that you can find a way to land some work.

Best wishes.

feed_my_eyes · ‎11-12-2020

The solution is not to spend so much time answering questions and doing video calls. If a client wants you to answer lots of questions, quote them a price for your time. If they want to do a video call, be clear that you have a maximum of 15 minutes to spare, and if they need to speak longer, you will need a contract in place for your consulting services. If they don't agree to that, then walk away. Clients can't take advantage of you if you don't let them.

bailesham · ‎11-12-2020

Hi Christine,

This is your second reply to me in 2 days! Nice work!

I'm afraid i did not read anywhere on the upwork terms of use to watch out for trolling clients who take your information and ideas and use them elsewhere. When you are speaking to a potential client after they first contact you i dont believe at the top of ones mind is to be aware of how much information you are passing over. As a starting out freelancer, extremely enthusiastic to make a mark on this platform, its very easy for clients to take advantage because as i have also noticed my fellow freelancers destroying the market with their $3 an hour price tag. I know there is a question of what kind of quality a client receives for this price but SURELY this is not how a platform like this should operate. IMHO there should also be a limit as to how low a freelancer can bid for a job. The client sets the price range and it should not be possible to go any lower.

I believe the system is flawed. It can not be 1 rule for freelancers and 1 rule for clients on here. There MUST be equality. I would almost guarantee clients would hire more if they had to pay for connects to post their fake jobs.

Still a very frustrated freelancer.

g_vasilevski · ‎11-12-2020

Hi Daniel,

If you`re suspicious of any client/s feel free to share more details with us (Moderators) via PM so that our team can investigate them further for violations of our TOS.

I would also like to clarify that requests for free work is not allowed and it is a violation of our TOS. If you receive requests like this, you can reach out to us (Moderators) or use the Flagging option directly from the job post. Thank you.

~ Goran

feed_my_eyes · ‎11-12-2020

Daniel O wrote:

I believe the system is flawed. It can not be 1 rule for freelancers and 1 rule for clients on here. There MUST be equality.

There's equality in that if a client wants quality work, then they have to pay for it. They're not going to get quality work from a $3/hour freelancer. Good clients know that, and why would you want to work with bad clients?

I would almost guarantee clients would hire more if they had to pay for connects to post their fake jobs.

Upwork does charge clients if they want certain services - there are different membership levels, and the highest is quite expensive. But they're not going to charge all clients, since that would result in fewer clients.

sein_mac · ‎11-12-2020

"But they're not going to charge all clients, since that would result in fewer clients."

Would it not be better to have fewer "clients" that aren't willing to pay?

geri_kol · ‎11-12-2020

Indeed, just as Upwork came up with a universal paid connects policy for freelancers in order to supposedly weed out scammers/bottom-of-the-barrel agents submitting useless, illiterate or uninformed bids to everything (Upwork´s own stated justification for the policy, though in not so many words), I think it should also implements a minimum charge for clients to post job posts. This is proportionate treatment for both sides. It won´t break the bank of any half-decent client to pay 90 cents or even $3 to post their listing and it would be very beneficial to freelancers who submit proposals in good faith, as it would help clean up the place from bottom-of-the-barrel "clients."

petra_r · ‎11-12-2020

Gergana K wrote:
It won´t break the bank of any half-decent client to pay 90 cents or even $3 to post their listing and it would be very beneficial to freelancers

It would stop many, and likely most new clients using Upwork at all. Everyone loses.

How is it "beneficial to freelancers" to have less opportunities, lose money, earn less, and have far more competition?

geri_kol · ‎11-12-2020

Petra R wrote:
Gergana K wrote:
It won´t break the bank of any half-decent client to pay 90 cents or even $3 to post their listing and it would be very beneficial to freelancers
It would stop many, and likely most new clients using Upwork at all. Everyone loses.
How is it "beneficial to freelancers" to have less opportunities, lose money, earn less, and have far more competition?

Easy: it would stop the cheapest, trashiest clients that nobody worth their salt would want to work with and that are polluting the space. If a client has a real need to hire a freelancer and cannot afford to spend $0.90 on a job posting, I can almost guarantee you they are better to be avoided in the first place and are much more likely to be the type that try to take advantage of freelancers for free ideas (like the OP described) or in some other way. Right now Upwork is like the Wild West on the client side.

petra_r · ‎11-12-2020

Gergana K wrote:
If a client has a real need to hire a freelancer and cannot afford to spend $0.90 on a job posting, I can almost guarantee you they are better to be avoided

That's the crux of the matter, Gergana. It has nothing to do with "not being able to afford it" - It's that they won't want to, whether they can afford it or not. It would stop countless genuine clients too, especially new ones. Why do you think not one of the main platforms does this?

It's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I'd much rather weed through a bunch of nonsense job posts, then find the really great clients, than not have the great clients there at all.

If a client has a real need to find a freelancer, they can (and do) post their jobs on several platforms. They don't have to pay on the others, so why would they bother on Upwork?

I am all for weeding out timewasters. There is no reason the let clients post dozens of jobs over years without hiring. There is no reason to let clients keep posting jobs and never hire anyone.

But every freelancer can see the client's hiring rate....

sein_mac · ‎11-12-2020

"It's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I'd much rather weed through a bunch of nonsense job posts, then find the really great clients, than not have the great clients there at all."

I my opinion and from what I have seen great clients are happy to pay fairly and will come to the platform to find workers that are provid a very high standrad of work. Lowering the bar by allowing trashy scam clients run ramppent is not good for legitimate and transparent businesses.

"If a client has a real need to find a freelancer, they can (and do) post their jobs on several platforms. They don't have to pay on the others, so why would they bother on Upwork?"

Great clients will come to Upwork for great talent. A minium fee for posting jobs is a small price to pay for sourcing great workers.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎11-12-2020

Gergana K wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Gergana K wrote:
It won´t break the bank of any half-decent client to pay 90 cents or even $3 to post their listing and it would be very beneficial to freelancers
It would stop many, and likely most new clients using Upwork at all. Everyone loses.
How is it "beneficial to freelancers" to have less opportunities, lose money, earn less, and have far more competition?
Easy: it would stop the cheapest, trashiest clients that nobody worth their salt would want to work with and that are polluting the space. If a client has a real need to hire a freelancer and cannot afford to spend $0.90 on a job posting, I can almost guarantee you they are better to be avoided in the first place and are much more likely to be the type that try to take advantage of freelancers for free ideas (like the OP described) or in some other way. Right now Upwork is like the Wild West on the client side.

Cheap, trashy clients -- and, incidentally, inexperienced and clueless clients -- only pollute our space to the extent that we let them. Every FL needs to take responsibility for vetting their own clients and projects. How dare you or anybody else propose policies that would absolutely drive away quality clients, in order to try making things easier and less risky for inexperienced and/or lazy FLs. Earning a living as an independent contractor takes hard work, willingness to learn and adapt, and a degree of venturesomeness. I have actually asked a couple of my most lucrative clients how they use UW and wha tthey think of it. They use it as one of many tools and I can absolutely guarantee you that Petra is right -- charging clients to post jobs would simply drive many of the best clients away.

geri_kol · ‎11-12-2020

Phyllis G wrote:
How dare you or anybody else propose policies that would absolutely drive away quality clients, in order to try making things easier and less risky for inexperienced and/or lazy FLs. Earning a living as an independent contractor takes hard work, willingness to learn and adapt, and a degree of venturesomeness.

Phyllis, I dare propose policies because 1) I too am a client of Upwork, since they couldn´t make the bulk of their commissions without top-rated freelancers like me who make money in the first place, and 2) this forum is for people to share opinions and experiences related to using the platform, and my opinion is at least as valid as yours.

Cleaning up the space from bottom-of-the-barrel clients is not to make it "easy" for FLs, but rather to improve the user experience. Isn´t this why Upwork implemented a paid connects policy for freelancers last year - to improve the user experience on the client side? And careful with the adjectives, lady: FLs like me who think clients should pay a nominal fee to post their listings are not necessarily lazy or inexperienced, perhaps we just want the platform to make a bit more of an effort to oversee client behavior as it is currently entirely lop-sided in favor of the client.

More to the point, Upwork has hinted on several occasions that it is interested in pivoting to high-value client-FL relationships, so I think it´s only right that they send a signal to clients that this is not the Wild West anymore. If freelancers can pay multiples of $0.90 (the equivalent of 6 connects) to submit bids, clients surely can be asked to pay a one-time $0.90 to post their listing.

bailesham · ‎11-12-2020

Great input guys. I am absolutlely getting the feeling here though that this seems to be Clients V Freelancers. That should not be the case at all. This is simple. FL's have to pay for connects then so should REAL clients, that was my equality point earlier.

This IMHO is the ONLY way to weed out the REAL from the FAKE clients.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎11-12-2020

Daniel O wrote:
Great input guys. I am absolutlely getting the feeling here though that this seems to be Clients V Freelancers. That should not be the case at all. This is simple. FL's have to pay for connects then so should REAL clients, that was my equality point earlier.

This IMHO is the ONLY way to weed out the REAL from the FAKE clients.

I'm also an occasional client.

The only way to weed out the real from the fake clients is for each FL to take responsibility for doing it on their own. Assuming there is such a thing as a "fake client" -- is that a client who posts a job and doesn't hire? That is simply a client who didn't find a qualified FL who suited them for that project. Quite likely they found one on another platform. That doesn't mean they won't hire an UW FL for their next project.

There is an inherent power imbalance in the client-contractor relationship. Successful freelancing requires the ability to navigate that successfully, from proposal through final deliverables. Anybody who can't manage that on UW is not going to succeed off the platform, either. Charging clients to post jobs won't magically endow every FL with the skills needed to run a successful business. It will just thin out the client pool which disadvantages everybody.

sein_mac · ‎11-12-2020

I agree with Gergana fully. And I am also a client on Upwork. And I didn't come down in the last shower of rain.

lysis10 · ‎11-12-2020

oh wow another novel "I'm struggling to get started so Upwork should change everything so that I can make all the money."

bailesham · ‎11-12-2020

Im well started, ive had 4 top jobs in a month!! So im well on the way. But the platform is set up to be advantageous for Clients only. Thats something that needs to be looked at. Im not fighting for myself here but for the FL community Jennifer. Much love to you.

bailesham · ‎11-12-2020

Jennifer I'm reading your thread here complaining about low rates and people bidding $3 on jobs. Something i wrote in my original post too..

There are 2 major problems on UpWork

1 - Low bids, i have even seen someone bidding $1 per hour on a job, im not joking

2 - Clients looking for free work, free samples, and information over messaging and calls but not HIRING.

As i said previously im not fighting for myself here, i have the FL community here in mind.

petra_r · ‎11-12-2020

Daniel O wrote:
There are 2 major problems on UpWork
1 - Low bids, i have even seen someone bidding $1 per hour on a job, im not joking
2 - Clients looking for free work, free samples, and information over messaging and calls but not HIRING.

1. No, you haven't. The minimum possible is $ 3 per hour. Which is 15+ times the minimum wage in many countries, for that matter.

2. Those are all things professional freelancers can and do sort through. Once you've got a bit more experience you'll understand the dynamics better and how this is not just one marketplace, but several.

The people who bid bottom-feeder rates are not your competition. They only compete with freelancers in their own particular corner of the market.

lysis10 · ‎11-12-2020

Daniel O wrote:

As i said previously im not fighting for myself here, i have the FL community here in mind.

lol how are your suggestions helping me at all? I'm not small minded enough to care about some low-tier freelancer bidding $3/hour. Let the client figure out what they get for that money. idc. In no way do $3/hour contractors affect me.

sein_mac · ‎11-12-2020

Its amazing how helpful some people can be

lysis10 · ‎11-12-2020

Sein M wrote:
Its amazing how helpful some people can be

Yes, I agree with you on this one.

petra_r · ‎11-12-2020

Daniel O wrote:
As i said previously im not fighting for myself here, i have the FL community here in mind.

Please don't "fight for" measures that would harm freelancers and lead to less jobs and less opportunities and ultimately less money- Please fight against global warming or for the lesser spotted bush kangaroo or something, anything you truly understand. Upwork dynamics are not that.

Please don't fight for hurting freelancers, and please, for all that is holy, don't fight for me.......

bailesham · ‎11-12-2020

As i noticed before:

Clients V Freelancers.

From my part of the world we "fight" for things. Whether its equality on platforms, global warming or an arrogant countries army killing your fellow countrymen and stealing your land.

Fighting for your rights is an expression and not a physical action @petra, please don't be alarmed. 😉

petra_r · ‎11-12-2020

Daniel O wrote:
I would almost guarantee clients would hire more if they had to pay for connects to post their fake jobs.

Absolutely not. They would not post their jobs in the first place. That is why no platform has such a system.

It would result in far less business for freelancers and be a disaster, as is everything else that chases clients from the platform in droves...

Daniel O wrote:
There MUST be equality.

There can never be equality when virtually all the money comes from the clients and when there are way, WAY too many freelancers, and not enough clients. As long as freelancers are a dime a dozen, and 10 waiting in the wings for every one that vanishes, and clients are scarse and irreplaceable, there will never be "equality" - I want Upwork to treat clients as well as they can, because THAT is how I have access to great clients who pay good money.

Expecting "equality" is naive... It's like being in a shop and expecting the products on the shelves to be treated the same as the paying customers.

Sein M wrote:
"But they're not going to charge all clients, since that would result in fewer clients."

Would it not be better to have fewer "clients" that aren't willing to pay?

You'd chase away the clients willing to pay just the same, in masses. That results in everyone having less opportunities and earn less moneymore competition, lower prices...... Bad, bad, bad, bad idea!

avirockx007 · ‎11-12-2020

Hey Daniel,

I am sorry to read all the things which you have said in your post. I am also a new person who is trying to get to the top of the food chain. I am also trying to push things up but remember this there is no short-cut, you have to create better chances for you by YOURSELF. Improve your way of thinking, improve your proposals, be professional, become a person that is different from others, similarly your proposals & your way of addressing the project with your client should be very unique. In my thinking the client never looks for the skills, he goes for the abilities/confidence in a freelancer. Be confident in yourself don't lose hope there are many clients who are looking to work with you, I had my first project which was three months after I started submitting the proposals.

Every time when I have an issue, I come here to discuss with the community, they helped me a lot, not only helped me they taught me where I was right and where I was wrong. Keep trying and you will get some good results. I was a lot frustrated in the beginning but after discussing with the fellow members a lot of the confusion is solved. Be yourself but be determined. Freelancing is a profession, not a part-time job. It takes time to get to the top and hopefully it shall happen. 🙂

Kind Regards

Awais N.

fahad567_odesk · ‎11-12-2020

I found many clients post job announcements on Upwork, then they disappeare! As an Upworker I have to purchase connects and apply for the jobs. Many times it happened to me that, I applied to a job posted by a payment verified client, and s/he disappeared forever, even they do not hire anyone else. Many clients frequently doing this on upwork, maybe they have no concern about the connects freelancers are purchasing to apply.

There is another type of clients who ask for free trial work, they do this to several freelancers at the same time. After free trial done they do not hire anyone! I doubt they might use the output of free trial for their personal use or something like that.

Upwork should consider this issue from the freelancers' perspective. I believe Upwork can come up with some effective solution in this regard.

moonraker · ‎11-12-2020

Charging clients to post jobs will mean fewer jobs are posted on the platform, including rather a lot of genuine clients that would just look elsewhere instead. (That is surely a no-brainer?) Yet, at the same time, the number of freelancers will stay the same. You'd just end up with more freelancers applying for each job.

I think, in most cases, the people making such suggestions are also those less likely to be able to remain competitive if/when competition does become more fierce. If you're struggling now - imagine what it would be like if you have to beat even more people to a job.

Be careful what you wish for.

I know that some clients do have a habit of not hiring and I came up with a solution to the problem. This is quite a powerful industry secret I'm about to let you all in on, so you will have to promise not to tell everybody. Here goes... I DON'T APPLY TO JOBS IF THE CLIENT HAS A LOW HIRE RATE.

It's a radical idea, I know, but I think it's worth considering at least.

geri_kol · ‎11-12-2020

Well, it will probably result in fewer nonsense "no-jobs" but I´m not convinced that it will result in fewer *quality* jobs. Actually I´m pretty sure it will raise the overall quality of the platform - and that´s a good thing. Clients who have a real intention to hire will not be deterred by a nominal one-time listing fee of $0.90. Plus, Upwork has the advantage of being the biggest and most popular freelancing site at the moment, so it´s also not a given that clients will simply go looking elsewhere (some might, but for better or worse no other FL site can match the network effect Upwork has).

(Spoken from a top-rated FL who has a steady stream of high-value clients in my particular niche.)

fahad567_odesk · ‎11-12-2020

Many job posts without any hiring does not add any value, rather it costs money, energy and time to a freelancer without any output. Genuine clients always try to end up finding the best fitted freelancer, so they will post job and hire freelancer as usual.

I think there are many other solutions Upwork can come up with, except charging clients to post job. Upwork can set up an automatic algorithm system that will restrict the job posts made by the clients having lower hire rate to reach freelancer's wall, e.g. Job posts made by clients having lower hiring rate will reach less freelancers. On the other hand job posts made by the clients having good hiring rate will reach good number of freelancers, or something like that. In that case, of course Upwork will inform the clients that losing hiring rate could make them trouble to reach talented freelancers.

Upwork can provide more privileges to the clients who have good hiring rate to motivate them as well. I believe if Upwork work on this issue they can make an effective solution.

b3eb8e01 · ‎02-19-2024

Agree. Another problem that makes confused is about proposal of being selected. For example, when client posts a request,soon after freelance sends out proposal too. Only the freelancers with highest amounts of connect will be on top four on the list, and can be seen by clients first. This might mean even though freelancer gives a feedback on first time just after the recruitment is posted on the platform of Upwork, it's possible for them not being seen by clients, because the selection rule is that whoever has the most connections comes first, instead of the speed of responding to client. Is that right? or freelance doesn't need to quickly give feedback to client as long as you submit proposal with a highest connects in a period of time before client hires somebody, right?

kochubei_valeria · ‎11-12-2020

Hi All,

Thanks for the discussion and sharing your suggestions and opinions. While I'm not aware of any immediate plans to require clients to pay a fee for initial sign up or to post a ny job on Upwork, I'd like to note that Upwork provides freelancers with filters that allow them to only see jobs from clients who have had a certain number of hires before or have verified their payment method. Additionally, freelancers are able to see if a job is Featured or posted by a client on a paid Membership. As others noted on the thread, hiring rate and other metrics displayed on the job posting can serve as very important information when making a decision to send a proposal or not.

As for clients asking freelancers to do work for free, I'd like to reiterate Goran's suggestion to please flag those jobs (or messages) so that the team can investigate.

Finally, I'd like to remind all participants of this discussion to treat each other with respect and refrain from making personal attacks even if your opinions differ. Please, review and adhere to the Community Guidelines when posting on these boards. A few posts had to be removed from this thread as they were in violation of the Guidelines.

~ Valeria

137c3fc1 · ‎07-26-2021

I am responding many months later, but have a problem. A client is looking for a writer(s) to do a 2500 word article. After sending my proposal, he got back to me, and wants a free trial of 1000 words with rules to follow, and some research. He has great reviews and payment is verified. I have an outline to work from. He said nothing about the potential for a long-term gig, just "hope to work with you in the future." but, that could just mean the 2500 word article he referred to. That job pays a flat $150. Minus 20%, not so great. A 1000 word article will take some time. What do you think of this?

sullivanliz · ‎07-26-2021

I wouldn't do it for free. You could suggest a fee, hopefully he'll accept!

deborah-ponzio · ‎07-26-2021

I have recently replied to a client new to the platform who suggested me to carry out a "test" after she had already asked many questions.... that I was happy to do a test for a minimum of $50. She sounded outraged at the beginning, I politely stood by my point. A few days later she hired me, no test needed anymore. 😉 However, I wish to add that after completing one contract for her, when she proposed a new contract she came out with her full bottom-feeder colors again and I politely declined to enter in a second contract with her. I could have probably decided to step back earlier, as her initial request for a free test was definitely a red flag.

roberty1y · ‎07-26-2021

Amy H wrote:
I am responding many months later, but have a problem. A client is looking for a writer(s) to do a 2500 word article. After sending my proposal, he got back to me, and wants a free trial of 1000 words with rules to follow, and some research. He has great reviews and payment is verified. I have an outline to work from. He said nothing about the potential for a long-term gig, just "hope to work with you in the future." but, that could just mean the 2500 word article he referred to. That job pays a flat $150. Minus 20%, not so great. A 1000 word article will take some time. What do you think of this?

No way, tell them to get lost. It' against the site's terms of service to ask people to work for no payment. If they want a sample, what's wrong with asking for a small one and paying for it?

There's nothing great about a client having good reviews. Many of them pay bottom rates on the understanding that they and the freelancer will engage in a bout of mutual flattery in the feedback section.

roberty1y · ‎07-26-2021

People are saying freelancers just have to avoid the wrong type of client. But that's much harder to do than it is to avoid the wrong type of freelancer. A client can close their account, leaving their shady record behind, and then start anew so that nobody will know about their past.

a_lipsey · ‎07-26-2021

Robert Y wrote:
People are saying freelancers just have to avoid the wrong type of client. But that's much harder to do than it is to avoid the wrong type of freelancer. A client can close their account, leaving their shady record behind, and then start anew so that nobody will know about their past.

You don't need to see any history to know to avoid a client who asks you to do work for free. In fact, history is irrelevant in that situation, as it is in so many. It's actually pretty easy to avoid the wrong kind of client if you listen to your gut. Any red flag, just say no.