Private negative feedback has JSS affect, but private positive feedback has no JSS affect

[murtuzi]

If a client ends a job without any money being exchanged, client has an option to leave private feedback.. 

Hear the catch now guys

Positive private feedback with 0$ earned has no impact on JSS, but negative private feedback with 0$ earned will impact JSS score, is that fair?

[petra_r]

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Murtaza H wrote:

Positive private feedback with 0$ earned has no impact on JSS, but negative private feedback with 0$ earned will impact JSS score, is that fair?

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How is it unfair?

It used to be that any contract with nothing paid had a negative effec on the JSS.

A contract that ends with no money changing hands can't ever be considered "successful", can it? Nothing paid means no money for you, no money for Upwork, no work done for the client, just a waste of time all around.

[murtuzi]

It can also mean a client hired directly without sharing all the requested details and later realized that the job isn't possible and ended the contract.

Or it can also mean that the client was being unreasonable and ended the freelancer couldn't work on his  her terms and had to ask to end contract.

There can be many reasons for ending without money being involved.

[petra_r]

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Murtaza H wrote:

It can also mean a client hired directly without sharing all the requested details and later realized that the job isn't possible and ended the contract.

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Then that will teach you not to accept a contract until you fully understand it. In a case such as above, why would the client leave poor private feedback?

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Murtaza H wrote:

Or it can also mean that the client was being unreasonable and ended the freelancer couldn't work on his  her terms and had to ask to end contract.

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And that would be a successful outcome... how? And why would the freelancer ask the client to close the contract, literally inviting the client to leave feedback, rather than closing it themselves and having the chance of not getting any feedback at all that way?

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Murtaza H wrote:

There can be many reasons for ending without money being involved.

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Of course. And such contracts will only negatively affect the JSS if the client is unhappy enough to leave poor private feedback. Unhappy clients are bad for Upwork, so they don't like such outcomes. If a contract ends without any money paid but a happy client, there is no negative effect.

Brad H wrote:

Does this private feedback count toward the calculation of the JSS?

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Private feedback is what affects the JSS more than anything else.

I absolutely understood his point. I do, however, disagree with it.

[tsawicki]

There are plenty of cases where a client's expectations are not adequately expressed in the initial conversation, nor in the job description.

Not to mention all the contracts that have potential unknowns in the execution.  Yes this happens often, yes it is an acceptable reality.

Expecting the client to only leave positive feedback when a freelancer makes the correct choice to end a contract they can not complete is flawed.  Why -would- they leave a fully positive review for a freelancer in this case?  Would that even be honestgiven the feedback options?

[tlbp]

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Murtaza H wrote:

It can also mean a client hired directly without sharing all the requested details and later realized that the job isn't possible and ended the contract.

Or it can also mean that the client was being unreasonable and ended the freelancer couldn't work on his  her terms and had to ask to end contract.

There can be many reasons for ending without money being involved.

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Those would all be "unsuccessful" jobs, yes? It's a job "success" score. Upwork created the score, they get to define it. 

[tsawicki]

And freelancers get to point out where it is unfair to them.  No one's arguing that upwork doesn't 'get' to make these decisions.  But there's plenty of room for saying what one thinks they -should- do, and why x is an issue.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Murtaza H wrote:

It can also mean a client hired directly without sharing all the requested details and later realized that the job isn't possible and ended the contract.

Or it can also mean that the client was being unreasonable and ended the freelancer couldn't work on his  her terms and had to ask to end contract.

There can be many reasons for ending without money being involved.

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It's up to you to make sure that you understand the project and that you have everything that you need before you accept a contract. And if the client needs to end the contract and you haven't done any work, then why do you think that you deserve a positive impact on your JSS? In what way is that fair to those of who earn our feedback ratings in the usual way, i.e. through doing good work for clients?

This would also be open to all kinds of abuse by dishonest freelancers who would manipulate their JSS scores without having to do any work or earn any money.

[tsawicki]

Many contracts - especially in programming - exist where the client has a goal that requires research.  

There are new technologies - the client's existing codebase might have unknowns in it..... they say 'i have a bug, I need it fixed, I don't know what's causing it.....'  I can think of many examples where the freelancer by definition of the job enters into it not knowing all the relevant factors necessary to ensure success.

[bradley-hodges]

I think you may have completely missed Murtaza's point. It used to be that no feedback on completed contracts could negatively affect a freelancer's JSS. The question is about unfinished contracts, where no money is exchanged. In this case, there STILL is the option to leave private feedback. I know because I've had this happen a few times over the years, where I hadn't clearly understood the terms, scope, or deadline of the mission. Does this private feedback count toward the calculation of the JSS?

[murtuzi]

Yes, you got it right.

and it is unfair, if the negative outcome is affecting JSS, a positive outcome should affect JSS too. 

[gilbert-phyllis]

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undefined:

Yes, you got it right.

and it is unfair, if the negative outcome is affecting JSS, a positive outcome should affect JSS too. 

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It's not a positive outcome -- the client, the FL, and UW all invest in the contract but the work doesn't get done and nobody earns any money. As long as the client doesn't give negative fb, take the no harm/no foul and learn the available lesson and move on.

[tsawicki]

Then no one should ever take a job where the client is usure of a problem they need solved.

The client can in many cases not have the skills necessary to evaluate their own needs - let alone satisfy them - hence hiring someone with those necessary skills.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Brad H wrote:

I know because I've had this happen a few times over the years, where I hadn't clearly understood the terms, scope, or deadline of the mission. Does this private feedback count toward the calculation of the JSS?

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Yes, it does count. If you don't understand the terms, scope or deadlines, then the client won't have a positive experience and has every right to leave you negative feedback. Why do you think there shouldn't be any consequences for freelancers who fail to communicate with their clients before accepting a project?

[bradley-hodges]

Christine wrote:

"Why do you think there shouldn't be any consequences for freelancers who fail to communicate with their clients before accepting a project?"

Fail to communicate up to a certain point, but quite often, clients themselves have moving targets, add never-ending requests for modifications and/or more than was agreed upon, don't realize that the Earth is round and that we're not all in the same time zone—the list goes on and on. Why should freelancers be punished for things that are out of their control—AND without even accepting a penny/offering a full refund to boot? Even after offering a full refund for a client that is simply impossible to please, said client can still slap me with a one on private feedback, and my JSS takes the hit? Come on...

[florydev]

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Fail to communicate up to a certain point, but quite often, clients themselves have moving targets, add never-ending requests for modifications and/or more than was agreed upon, don't realize that the Earth is round and that we're not all in the same time zone—the list goes on and on. Why should freelancers be punished for things that are out of their control

I don't agree with the way you see it.  It is not beyond their control.  I cannot control what a client thinks or how they act but I can control what clients I engage with and how I engage with them. I don't allow clients to have moving targets, scope is understood or a project is hourly.

This statement too is telling to me...

ever-ending requests for modifications

You say it like it is a bad thing instead of gold, because it clearly means to you...

ever-ending requests for modifications(for which I don't get paid)

Scope creep is a wonderful thing...when handled properly.  "You know, that is a great idea and we should totally do that in the next milestone let me estimate that out for you."  But it does preclude the possibility of an uncomfortable discussion.

My guess is that most of the problems in people's reviews are not about what they did or what they said but all the things left unsaid and all the unknown expectations that were left unfulfilled.  

[tsawicki]

Come on man.   You never had a job where the client asked for additional things for the already agreed upon price?

You not allowing the client to move their goalposts never angered the client?

Really?

[petra_r]

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Brad H wrote:

Christine wrote:

"Why do you think there shouldn't be any consequences for freelancers who fail to communicate with their clients before accepting a project?"

Fail to communicate up to a certain point, but quite often, clients themselves have moving targets, add never-ending requests for modifications and/or more than was agreed upon, don't realize that the Earth is round and that we're not all in the same time zone—the list goes on and on. 

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Do you really suffer such clients? We are in the same category and I do not.

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Brad H wrote:

Why should freelancers be punished for things that are out of their control

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Few things are out of your control if you choose your clients carefully and manage your contracts effectively from before they start to after they close.

[tsawicki]

No.  That's complete bunk.

Unreasonable clients abound, and one can't always predict who those clients will be before the point of the contract starting.

There should be a way of exiting without negative reprecussions - especially- if the freelancer offers a complete refund or catches the issue in the very beginning of a contract.

[tlsanders]

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Brad H wrote:

Christine wrote:


Even after offering a full refund for a client that is simply impossible to please, said client can still slap me with a one on private feedback, and my JSS takes the hit? Come on...

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So, you think a freelancer should be able to accept an unlimited number of contracts, agree to deadlines, allow the client to rely on them, then either just not bother to do the job at all or do such a horrible job that the client has to start over and if they either never got paid or offered a refund, that shouldn't impact their ratings at all?

Under your system, a freelancer who did a great job on 4 contracts and so completely blew 88 others that he had to make a full refund in each would have 100% JSS. Does that really seem like a reasonable outcome to you?

[benedictrm]

I see two sides here and while most responses here seem somewhat polarized to me (modern disease) it seems that without understanding what really happened on both sides, we can't really draw such clear conclusions.

Since I got a backhanded review from a client who did everything wrong then made out I was too old to understand and manage his youthful funkiness. I have not landed anything on Upwork since. 

I admit it was partly my fault for putting aside his red flags when he pushed past every boundary I laid and after telling him he was requesting ~10 hours of work let him pay for 4. Then I ran around trying to solve his inability to send files over properly. Then after delivering what was agreed in the Contract, I let him push me up to ~12 hours of work and started demanding more (trying to let himself think his raw work was polishable). I said no and he canceled the contract and left damning backhanded commentary under the guise of a 5-star review. I don't know if the ability to respond was there at the time but I didn't find it then and I can't see it now.

While clearly, I see my role in this, there are two sides to this in that the "client" was clearly looking to take advantage and laid a landmine out of malice that I cannot seem to overcome seeing it is the first thing people see about me, before all the other glowing reviews. I see he has never made that release despite spawning several clone accounts several places 😉

I have been in another place too and had some work there but increasingly their pick n choose approach to their TOS makes it equally impossible to get proper work.

Leaving negative feedback on a job where nothing happened could be appropriate if the seller simply was incompetent. However, if it was the buyer who was incompetent or worse, letting them review is only allowing the "criminal" to rate his "policeman". That is insane.

🙂

[tsawicki]

EXACTLY.

I had (what seemed to be) a client who constantly moved his goalposts, claimed he was leaving me top marks when I jumped through those hoops, and didn't.  It screwed up my score to the point where I hardly worked for over a year.

In reality - in many of the upwork job areas, if you don't have a 90 or above, you don't get work.

[tsawicki]

And under this system, a freelancer who had 9 contracts in the past evaluation window, had top marks in 8, and had one client that became unreasonable suffers.

Or many other permutations of that.

[a_lipsey]

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Brad H wrote:

Christine wrote:

"Why do you think there shouldn't be any consequences for freelancers who fail to communicate with their clients before accepting a project?"

Fail to communicate up to a certain point, but quite often, clients themselves have moving targets, add never-ending requests for modifications and/or more than was agreed upon, don't realize that the Earth is round and that we're not all in the same time zone—the list goes on and on. Why should freelancers be punished for things that are out of their control—AND without even accepting a penny/offering a full refund to boot? Even after offering a full refund for a client that is simply impossible to please, said client can still slap me with a one on private feedback, and my JSS takes the hit? Come on...

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Pretty much everything you said is within your control. And if you don't learn to change how you vet clients, accept contracts, and otherwise do business the first time it happens, then you deserve the negative outcome. 

Back when no earnings contracts negatively impacted JSS, I had just ONE of these bump me out of TR status. Did I come here and complain? No, I realized that Upwork deemed that an unsuccessful contract, even though the client and I had let it slip by mistake and he immediately opened a new contract for the same project. What did I do? Learn how to properly use Upwork's contracting system, figure out how they intend for me to use it so I don't have no earnings contracts or contracts that expire. 

Freelancers who come here complaining it occurs over and over need to look at their own business processes, not their clients'. Every client I have has moving targets and ever shifting needs. I set expectations that the SOW is the SOW, and if it changes then the price changes. No surprises to them, and I am able to meet their expectations and even exceed them, usually. 

Every time I have a bad experience with a client, I look to myself and say "how did this happen?" I don't look to someone else to fix it for me. And I certainly don't expect Upwork to change for me. 

[benedictrm]

Amanda, I agree in many ways and when things go square for me I do exactly what you say. At least as much as I can.

However, in places like this, there is a "third person" who has a hand on the wheel. The company itself has a hand in everything that happens. That is good if what they do is fair (not necessarily popular - but fair like a good King). That is not good if the company has processes where their TOS is backed in some cases yet not in others. That makes it much harder to simply be the firm freelancer you suggest as all it takes is the customer to go running to the company and if the ruling is not even, people suffer needlessly which also makes it harder to be confident next time.

I see now that Hours at Upwork are a great system. One of the problems though is that it only works if clients will work that way. If they will only pay per project or in milestones, then pull that away, it is too easy for them to walk away with nothing but a toxic review after they demanded the impossible or things outside the contract.

A grace period when a job starts is doable. One freelance place gives one. If there is a dispute they actually look at both sides. I have not used that here or there but knowing that outcomes will be fair is a fundamental thing. Because there's that third person in every transaction here, we can't just ignore it.

🙂

[tlsanders]

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Benedict R wrote:

A grace period when a job starts is doable. One freelance place gives one. If there is a dispute they actually look at both sides. I have not used that here or there but knowing that outcomes will be fair is a fundamental thing. Because there's that third person in every transaction here, we can't just ignore it.

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 As a escrow agent, it is not Upwork's place to "look at both sides." While there's a widespread fantasy that Upwork "takes the client's side," Upwork actually doesn't make rulings on disputes at all. That's clear in the user agreement and the help materials. The only way to get a third party to decide the issue is to pay for arbitration.

[richard_wein]

If the client deliberately leaves a negative rating on a zero-earnings contract,  then so be it. I see no reason why such a rating should not count.

However, the client should also have a clearly marked option for cancelling the contract on no-fault basis, such as "Contract no longer needed", in which case there should be no effect on JSS. Maybe such an option already exists, I don't know. My concern is that maybe clients who close such a contract are forced to rate on a scale of 1-10, even if they have no basis for doing so,  in which case they might give a 5, thinking that it's a neutral rating,  when in fact it harms the freelancer's JSS.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Richard W wrote:

If the client deliberately leaves a negative rating on a zero-earnings contract,  then so be it. I see no reason why such a rating should not count.

However, the client should also have a clearly marked option for cancelling the contract on no-fault basis, such as "Contract no longer needed", in which case there should be no effect on JSS. Maybe such an option already exists, I don't know. 

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It does already exist - Upwork changed this months ago. If the client cancels a contract and leaves no feedback or positive feedback, then there isn't any impact on one's JSS. But the OP's argument is that he's not content with merely having the contract not count; on the contrary, he wants these no-work-done, nothing-paid contracts to have a positive impact on his JSS. 

[feed_my_eyes]

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Benedict R wrote:

A grace period when a job starts is doable. One freelance place gives one. If there is a dispute they actually look at both sides. I have not used that here or there but knowing that outcomes will be fair is a fundamental thing. Because there's that third person in every transaction here, we can't just ignore it.

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No, it's not doable because Upwork has millions of freelancers - can you imagine if their customer support had to review every case in which a freelancer felt they had received unfair feedback (and many freelancers cry "unfair" whenever they receive less than perfect 5s across the board)? I hate to think of how much they'd have to raise our fees in order to cover all of the additional customer service personnel who would have to be hired to adjudicate these matters. They would also have to be experts in every possible service niche in order to decide whether a freelancer's work was worthy of 5 stars or not, along with reviewing all correspondence between the client and freelancer to see if deadlines were missed or if anyone said something rude. Forget about this, because it's not going to happen. 

Anyway, Upwork says that their "average" freelancer has a 4.9 feedback score, so you can't really argue that the scoring system is too harsh.

[tsawicki]

Really?

Just one contract bumped you out of top rated status and you said 'well, must be me, I need to be better'.

That sounds ludicrous to me.

Not everyone has the ability to read people correctly from a job description and an initial conversation.  Plenty of people lie.  It happens. 

And not everyone has the the luxury to refuse a potential job when they're not 100% confidant the client is a reasonable person. 

[tsawicki]

Because a lack of communication may not be the freelancer's fault.  This is a perfectly plausible possibility.

[dbb644c2]

Hi Petra,

3 of my clients are unresponsive for the last 2-3 months. If I end the contract and the client will not leave the feedback (as they are not responsive) will it affect my JSS?

One of my clients never provided me with any work. He is unresponsive from day one when he gave me the contract so will it affect my JSS if I end the contract from my side? and should I end the contracts or should I wait for them to reply?

[petra_r]

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Pooja J wrote:

3 of my clients are unresponsive for the last 2-3 months. If I end the contract and the client will not leave the feedback (as they are not responsive) will it affect my JSS?

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No, it would have no effect unless the clients leave poor feedback. I'd not close them all at the same time so there isn't a set of "no feedback" contracts one after the other. That is purely for appearances and again does not affect the JSS.

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Pooja J wrote:

One of my clients never provided me with any work. He is unresponsive from day one when he gave me the contract so will it affect my JSS if I end the contract from my side? and should I end the contracts or should I wait for them to reply?

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In future, never accept a contract unless and until you have everything you need to complete the first milestone or legitimately track some time.

If it's been quite a while since the contract started (several weeks or months) then just close them. Again, they would only affect your JSS if the client left poor feedback. If, as is likely, the clients stay missing, there will be no effect on your JSS.

[dbb644c2]

Thanks, Petra. I will keep this in mind for future contracts.

[tsawicki]

That's of course not the only possible scenario in a contract with no earnings terminated by either party.

Undisclosed expectations from the client, scope creep, or indeed anything discovered after the point of hiring that the freelancer sees as making them unable to complete the contract - any of these are good and honest reasons to end a contract.

There are also many instances - especially in programming - where there is initial exploratory or evaluatory work needed to determine the attainability of the client's objective.  It's unfair to the freelancer to require them to do all necessary research before they are even hired.

This definitely should change.

[pvvishnu6]

I feel If a client is not paying any money, and giving positive feedback is looking suspicious because of fake client account. But a negative feedback by client will  be real. so it acceptable