Project Catalog Refund Client

mgmoore · ‎01-02-2021

Hello,

A client purchased one of my projects from the project catalog. Unfortunately, the type of work he was looking for was not consistent at all with the project/work I do. After talking he asked me to refund him or decline the project.

I don't think declining is an option and Upwork won't let me refund him (I never submitted any work...). Either way, I don't want my JSS to be affected...especially since he emailed me asking me to end the project (which I am totally onboard with). Any advice?

NikolaS · ‎01-02-2021

Hi Megan,

I checked and it seems that you already created a support ticket regarding your concern. If you have any additional questions feel free to follow up on your ticket and our team will be happy to assist you.

~ Nikola

gilbert-phyllis · ‎01-02-2021

Nikola S wrote:
Hi Megan,

I checked and it seems that you already created a support ticket regarding your concern. If you have any additional questions feel free to follow up on your ticket and our team will be happy to assist you.

We all understand the rationale and importance of preserving privacy in these matters. Still, it would be extremely useful if Upwork would comment about the best way to handle this situation which is bound to arise over and over.

m_terrazas · ‎01-02-2021

Megan M wrote:
Hello,

A client purchased one of my projects from the project catalog. Unfortunately, the type of work he was looking for was not consistent at all with the project/work I do. After talking he asked me to refund him or decline the project.

I don't think declining is an option and Upwork won't let me refund him (I never submitted any work...). Either way, I don't want my JSS to be affected...especially since he emailed me asking me to end the project (which I am totally onboard with). Any advice?

Megan, it's an interesting question. So, will you inform us of what answer you receive from Upwork?

mgmoore · ‎01-02-2021

Sure! Upwork support told me that if I go into the project and select more (the three dots at the top) that I could select “end contract”.

I then had to give a reason why and rate the client...

Support also said that I do have the option to remove feedback should the client leave any, but I am not sure how that will work. Ultimately, I wish the client could have rescinded the offer instead of me ending the contract because I’m sure it will reflect negatively on me somehow...

colettelewis · ‎01-02-2021

Megan M wrote:
Sure! Upwork support told me that if I go into the project and select more (the three dots at the top) that I could select “end contract”.

I then had to give a reason why and rate the client...

Support also said that I do have the option to remove feedback should the client leave any, but I am not sure how that will work. Ultimately, I wish the client could have rescinded the offer instead of me ending the contract because I’m sure it will reflect negatively on me somehow...

______________________

This seems to be entrappment at its lowest level. Unless I have missed something, why were you not allowed the option of refusing the contract? And why did the client/Upwork force a contract without checking whether your skills matched the client's requirements.

It should not be down to you - in the event of negative feedback for a job that never existed - to have to resort to your top-rated perk, which in any case would show on your profile as "feedback removed", because Upwork forced an inappropriate contract between client and freelancer.

jr-translation · ‎01-02-2021

Nichola L wrote:
Megan M wrote:
Sure! Upwork support told me that if I go into the project and select more (the three dots at the top) that I could select “end contract”.

I then had to give a reason why and rate the client...

Support also said that I do have the option to remove feedback should the client leave any, but I am not sure how that will work. Ultimately, I wish the client could have rescinded the offer instead of me ending the contract because I’m sure it will reflect negatively on me somehow...
______________________
This seems to be entrappment at its lowest level. Unless I have missed something, why were you not allowed the option of refusing the contract? And why did the client/Upwork force a contract without checking whether your skills matched the client's requirements.

It should not be down to you - in the event of negative feedback for a job that never existed - to have to resort to your top-rated perk, which in any case would show on your profile as "feedback removed", because Upwork forced an inappropriate contract between client and freelancer.

A contract with no money paid should not appear in the work history so removing the feedback will be hard. Let's hope the client does not reply that he will not hire you again because that would dang your recommendation value.

colettelewis · ‎01-02-2021

Jennifer R wrote:
Nichola L wrote:
Megan M wrote:
Sure! Upwork support told me that if I go into the project and select more (the three dots at the top) that I could select “end contract”.

I then had to give a reason why and rate the client...

Support also said that I do have the option to remove feedback should the client leave any, but I am not sure how that will work. Ultimately, I wish the client could have rescinded the offer instead of me ending the contract because I’m sure it will reflect negatively on me somehow...
______________________
This seems to be entrappment at its lowest level. Unless I have missed something, why were you not allowed the option of refusing the contract? And why did the client/Upwork force a contract without checking whether your skills matched the client's requirements.

It should not be down to you - in the event of negative feedback for a job that never existed - to have to resort to your top-rated perk, which in any case would show on your profile as "feedback removed", because Upwork forced an inappropriate contract between client and freelancer.

A contract with no money paid should not appear in the work history so removing the feedback will be hard. Let's hope the client does not reply that he will not hire you again because that would dang your recommendation value.

___________________
Agreed. But a contract should be agreed by both parties not, as seems to be the case here, where the contract went ahead without the say-so of the freelancer, who, through no fault of her own, was unable to deliver because her skills did not match the client's requirements.

sarfaraz_yto · ‎04-12-2021

But it affects the rating. -7% Even you earned $ 200k.

petra_r · ‎04-12-2021

Sarfaraz Tok M wrote:
But it affects the rating. -7% Even you earned $ 200k.

What do you mean? What affects what rating? You don't have a rating or a product catalogue product?

mgmoore · ‎01-02-2021

It was through the new project catalog feature that Upwork is testing out. So (to my knowledge) the client just outright buys a project, there is no application/interview process. I think I read freelancers have a 24 or 48 hours to refuse the contract, but they contacted me over the holiday so I wasn’t really monitoring it very closely and missed the timeframe. I had my project clearly outlined regarding the type of work that I do, what I require from the client, what the deliverables will be, etc. But I don’t know if the client didn’t read it or what, because the work they wanted was way off base with what I usually do, and can do.

I am not really impressed with this new feature. I wish it worked Similar to how clients can ask us to interview, and we can either except the interview or decline. There should be some mechanism for me to review what they want, and then decline the work.

Here is what I was initially emailed regarding the new feature...

As an independent professional, you give a lot to the job, including the many unbilled hours spent finding new opportunities. A typical day in your shoes might include:
• Scanning open jobs for opportunities that match your skill set
• Submitting proposals and waiting for responses
• Negotiating contract terms, project scope, and rates with prospective clients

Meanwhile, that's all time that could be spent doing the work you love (and getting paid for it!)

What if it was easier to market your work? What if you could set expectations on pricing, timing, and deliverables upfront? What if clients came to you?

We're building Project Catalog, a new Upwork offering that does just that — and we're inviting you to be the first to try it. When you join our Early Access Program for Project Catalog, you'll partner with us to test new features, enjoy exclusive perks, and provide valuable feedback on a new Upwork experience designed to help you earn more on your terms.

Build your first project now, and your work will be showcased to clients in our upcoming launch.”

There just isn’t a good way to vet clients. And then you’re stuck ending the contract or whatnot...

colettelewis · ‎01-02-2021

It would seem that this is another feature that has not been sufficiently thought out before being rolled out.

Can we put Upwork's muddy thinking and snaring of unwary freelancers down to Covid and political shenanigans both sides of the Atlantic?

VladimirG · ‎01-04-2021

Hi Megan,

I'm sorry to hear about your first experience with the Catalog Projects feature. I'd like to clarify a few points you raised in the conversation.

1. Seeing that the contract was created near the end of December, you as a freelancer had an option to cancel a contract within 24 hours of the client submitting requirements to you without any penalty or impact on your Job Success Score.

2. Freelancers in the Catalog Projects program do have the feedback removal option and can request removal of feedback for one project contract per month once they become active.

3. I understand the client purchased your project during the holidays. Since clients are able to instantly buy Catalog projects and likely will expect freelancers to meet the delivery time they have listed there, freelancers have the option to turn off the project if they won’t be available to complete the work. Pro tip: In general, if your project is “on” you should be prepared to have a client purchase it at any time.

We do strongly advise familiarizing with any Upwork feature in order to fully benefit from its use. Please do review the information shared in this Help article and feel free to follow up if you have any questions or need further advice.

I'd also like to follow up on a few questions that have been raised in the conversation and confirm that detailed information about how the Catalog Projects feature works and a description of all of its processes are available publicly in the Help article linked above. Most importantly, I'd like to reiterate that the Catalog Projects feature is in development and we are constantly working on expanding the feature. Thank you for your feedback and stay tuned!

~ Vladimir

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-04-2021

I read the link above, but it didn't answer my questions.

1. When a client purchases a project catalogue offer, are we able to see their stats, especially any feedback to and from other freelancers?

2. What happens if the client needs a price adjustment? I can't possibly cover all possible scenarios - what if I list prices to design a 10-page, 20-page and 30-page document, but the client wants a quote for a 50-page document? Do they have any option to message me and negotiate, or can they link to my profile and invite me to a project post instead? Can they set up new milestones to cover anything out-of-scope?

kochubei_valeria · ‎01-05-2021

Hi Christine,

Currently, when a client purchases a freelancer’s project, the freelancer cannot see the clients past Work History and Feedback section. From this discussion and other feedback we see that it’s very important for freelancers to see that information about the client. As Joanne mentioned on this thread team has been reviewing feedback about Project Catalog shared here in the Community. A number of improvements have already been made based on the feedback, and the team continues to make further improvements.
Clients can now message you to clarify the details of the project or ask additional questions before they purchase it. Once a project is purchased, however, its scope can’t be changed. The idea is that the client is agreeing to the scope you laid out for the project when they buy it. To start, Project Catalog projects will only include one milestone at the end of the project. However, you and your client can create a new Upwork contract if you would like to collaborate on more work after your project is completed. If a client has custom needs, they may want to post a custom job and invite you to apply instead.
Similarly, if a freelancer prefers to use Upwork to apply for jobs or receive invites from clients to jobs they posted, they can certainly continue to do so. Our intent with Project Catalog is not to force you to change how you work. It is just another option to market your skills on Upwork and it is not required.

~ Valeria

gina-herrera · ‎01-05-2021

Valeria K wrote:
Hi Christine,

Clients can now message you to clarify the details of the project or ask additional questions before they purchase it. Once a project is purchased, however, its scope can’t be changed. The idea is that the client is agreeing to the scope you laid out for the project when they buy it

While this makes sense in theory, clients are not exactly known for understanding what is within the scope of something and what is not. I can definitely see clients trying to slide some extra tasks through the cracks, or perhaps just not knowing that a certain task takes more time and isn't included. If the feedback team really wants to address this, they should at least keep the same process in regards to the contract - client extends an offer, freelancer has to hit "accept" to move forward, which can be after a quick chat about the scope.

If that type of control is not given to us, I will probably never want to use this feature. While I appreciate that they are looking for more ways to showcase succussful freelancers' work, and I think it can be beneficial for some, until there is an option to deny it, I don't think it's a good fit for a lot of us. Although at the same time I am thinking of this very ego-centrically - it just occurred to me maybe this system works better for cheaper workers who live in countries with lower cost of living expenses, as it does on Fiverr.

kochubei_valeria · ‎01-05-2021

Gina,

Thanks for following up. I definitely understand your concerns and hesitation to use the feature. It's still very new and many aspects of it are still being worked out.

That said, it's main purpose is actually to give more control to the freelancer. You're right that some clients may not understand the scope, what may go into creating the final product and how much it will cost. That's why for Project Catalog, it's up to freelancers to set expectations about cost, scope, timeline, and deliverables. The idea is that freelancers pre-define everything upfront and interested clients can buy it, cutting down on the back and forth that often needs to occur before a project begins.

~ Valeria

petra_r · ‎01-05-2021

I think this will work great for freelancers in categories where it is easy enough to package a set product.

It will not work for freelancers whose line of work does not lend itself to pre-packaging.

It won't work for me, unfortunately, because what I offer can not be sensibly pre-packaged in a way that would work.

That's not an issue though, because if it works for other people that's just fine by me.

m_terrazas · ‎01-05-2021

Valeria K wrote:
Gina,

Thanks for following up. I definitely understand your concerns and hesitation to use the feature. It's still very new and many aspects of it are still being worked out.
That said, it's main purpose is actually to give more control to the freelancer. You're right that some clients may not understand the scope, what may go into creating the final product and how much it will cost. That's why for Project Catalog, it's up to freelancers to set expectations about cost, scope, timeline, and deliverables. The idea is that freelancers pre-define everything upfront and interested clients can buy it, cutting down on the back and forth that often needs to occur before a project begins.

That is really the problem, Upwork wants to restrict communication.
In my case, I can assure you that if the contracts have gone well it is because BEFORE accepting the contract I try to make sure that everything is very clear regarding the scope and the material that I need, and I clarify all the doubts that the client may have. And I assure you that there are usually many.
I have tried to create one of those projects, several times, and I cannot do it because of the constraint that it is.

mtngigi · ‎01-05-2021

Maria T wrote:
Valeria K wrote:
Gina,

Thanks for following up. I definitely understand your concerns and hesitation to use the feature. It's still very new and many aspects of it are still being worked out.
That said, it's main purpose is actually to give more control to the freelancer. You're right that some clients may not understand the scope, what may go into creating the final product and how much it will cost. That's why for Project Catalog, it's up to freelancers to set expectations about cost, scope, timeline, and deliverables. The idea is that freelancers pre-define everything upfront and interested clients can buy it, cutting down on the back and forth that often needs to occur before a project begins.
That is really the problem, Upwork wants to restrict communication.
In my case, I can assure you that if the contracts have gone well it is because BEFORE accepting the contract I try to make sure that everything is very clear regarding the scope and the material that I need, and I clarify all the doubts that the client may have. And I assure you that there are usually many.
I have tried to create one of those projects, several times, and I cannot do it because of the constraint that it is.

Well stated, Maria ... this, along with other new programs we can't turn off and have been forced into, does not work across all categories and for all freelancers, an issue Upwork either ignores and/or never seems to understand.

"I try to make sure that everything is very clear regarding the scope and the material that I need, and I clarify all the doubts that the client may have". Yes, that's what good professionals do. "Try" being the operative word. Things still can and do fall apart during a project.

No matter how well-prepared we are, clients invariably are not. I can't think of many projects where I would dare to state black and white specifics, and hope that a client will respect and stick with the program. All due respect Upwork, but nothing you make freelancers do is ever going to "cut down all the back and forth". It's a rare client that happens with.

gina-herrera · ‎01-05-2021

Virginia F wrote:
No matter how well-prepared we are, clients invariably are not. I can't think of many projects where I would dare to state black and white specifics, and hope that a client will respect and stick with the program. All due respect Upwork, but nothing you make freelancers do is ever going to "cut down all the back and forth". It's a rare client that happens with.

Yes, and all this program is going to accomplish is making both clients AND freelancers more frustrated because it is purporting itself to be much more cut-and-dry than it will turn out to be. Freelancers being upset or complaining may not mean as much, but surely the fact that a client will undoubtedly be annoyed if they spend the time going through a catalog and purchasing a project only to have to backtrack and realize it's not a good match / they can't do what they're being asked for, has to mean something.

gina-herrera · ‎01-04-2021

From the link you provided - "Freelancers in the Early Access program will have a grace period to cancel a contract within its first 24 hours, without impact to their Job Success Scores."

So what about those who were not in the early access program?

As usual, Upwork has invented yet another way to ding freelancer feedback. There is absolutely no way that there should be harm to someone's score (early access program or not) from being essentially forced into a contract. It is really frustrating to know this and deters me from ever using the Catalog Projects feature at all, I have no interest in people reaching out to me and then when I am honest about whether I can take on the project or not, my score is potentially harmed by a client I had barely any interaction with. And 24 hours isn't actually enough to decline the project either, any number of things could happen that prevent someone from checking their requests that day. Some freelancers don't work on weekends, for instance. Emergencies are another reason. Or, what if the client is not available until the next day to talk through the scope of the project so that you can find out if you're suited for their exact needs?

I have complained about this multiple times and of course it has fallen on deaf ears, but this also ties in with the fact that clients are allowed to add milestones to a contract without freelancer approval. Freelancers NEED more control over their contract approvals, it is supposed to be a two-party agreement and if I don't agree to something, it should not be permitted for people to set up more work in the contract that was already figuratively "signed". Meanwhile, when people reach out to work directly with me, I can only see their number of stars as far as rating - I can't see their feedback received, or feedback left for others, which is a huge part of if I choose to work with someone. And now this, the idea that someone can hire me and then leave a negative score if I don't have time / the skillset to take on a project from the Catalog.

There has been no response from upwork at all each time this is brought up, but it's not like I'm one of the 8000 people whining about paying for connects... All of this is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth, these are important, valid concerns that keep getting pushed aside.

gina-herrera · ‎01-04-2021

*crickets chirping as I wait for an Upwork rep to for once address a legitimate concern or at least pretend they are addressing it by saying they will pass it along to the support / feedback team*

mtngigi · ‎01-04-2021

Gina H wrote:
From the link you provided - "Freelancers in the Early Access program will have a grace period to cancel a contract within its first 24 hours, without impact to their Job Success Scores."

So what about those who were not in the early access program?

As usual, Upwork has invented yet another way to ding freelancer feedback. There is absolutely no way that there should be harm to someone's score (early access program or not) from being essentially forced into a contract. It is really frustrating to know this and deters me from ever using the Catalog Projects feature at all, I have no interest in people reaching out to me and then when I am honest about whether I can take on the project or not, my score is potentially harmed by a client I had barely any interaction with. And 24 hours isn't actually enough to decline the project either, any number of things could happen that prevent someone from checking their requests that day. Some freelancers don't work on weekends, for instance. Emergencies are another reason. Or, what if the client is not available until the next day to talk through the scope of the project so that you can find out if you're suited for their exact needs?

I have complained about this multiple times and of course it has fallen on deaf ears, but this also ties in with the fact that clients are allowed to add milestones to a contract without freelancer approval. Freelancers NEED more control over their contract approvals, it is supposed to be a two-party agreement and if I don't agree to something, it should not be permitted for people to set up more work in the contract that was already figuratively "signed". Meanwhile, when people reach out to work directly with me, I can only see their number of stars as far as rating - I can't see their feedback received, or feedback left for others, which is a huge part of if I choose to work with someone. And now this, the idea that someone can hire me and then leave a negative score if I don't have time / the skillset to take on a project from the Catalog.

There has been no response from upwork at all each time this is brought up, but it's not like I'm one of the 8000 people whining about paying for connects... All of this is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth, these are important, valid concerns that keep getting pushed aside.

"And now this, the idea that someone can hire me and then leave a negative score if I don't have time / the skillset to take on a project from the Catalog"

Seriously? This is really happening? Everytime I think about jumping in again, I find threads like this. What is Upwork doing to freelancers? Why? Why would anyone want to buy into this Catalog thing? Once again, Upwork assumes clients know what they need and the terminology they should use, plus read and understand what skillset the freelancer offers. It is beyond mind-boggling ... especially when a clueless client is able to ding someone with bad feedback because they screwed up? Tell me I'm not understanding.

JoanneP · ‎01-04-2021

Hi Gina,

I apologize for any delays in replying to your post. I appreciate your time sharing your feedback. I'll be sure to share this with our team for review.

~ Joanne

gina-herrera · ‎01-04-2021

Joanne Marie P wrote:
Hi Gina,
I apologize for any delays in replying to your post.

It's definitely not about you taking a awhile to reply to the post, if it came off that way I apologize - more as a general commentary about the fact that Upwork (as a whole) continues to give off the impression they have few cares about freelancers, their feedback / reviews and how it affects their career and livelihood despite the fact that top-rated / expert freelancers are bringing it up.

Then we get these silly surveys asking us if we feel Upwork is always there to "do the right thing" regarding freelancers - of course we don't.

JoanneP · ‎01-04-2021

Hi Gina,

I'm sorry if you feel that way. Please know that our team reviews feedback shared here in the community and see how this can be beneficial for all Upwork users. We won't be able to share any information about any future implementation, but please be assured that any feedback/suggestion is carefully reviewed. We really appreciate all the community members who have shared their feedback and suggestions on how Upwork can be better.

~ Joanne