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2f5ff562
Community Member

Quality of job posts have dramatically decreased

I have found a lot of scammers, a lot of people with UNREALISTIC budgets, like make a pixar animation for 10USD, or people who are just scouting for prices, but have no intentions of actually hiring a freelancer.

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2f5ff562
Community Member

I think it is healthy from time to time to let a little frustration out, i felt this was a good place to do it, and have the support of the rest of the community, like a safe place to vent form time to time, i repeat: I am not your enemy, i am not trying to attack any of you, i am trying to be nice with you, just sharing my thoughts, would you please, please stop being so deffensive? sarcasm is not a very nice way. I ask you this nicely, let´s help each other, let´s learn from each other i have learned a lot from this thread, please maybe try to also learn something from us new ones?

By the way, idk if you read the entire thread, the complaints i am talking about, it´s not to other freelancers or the community, they are about stuff that the rest of the freelancers have complaint, and have been doing so since always, and i dare to think also yourself have complaint in some point of your carreer, at the beginning or whatever.


Jesús Mateo R wrote:

And you know what... i will complaint... and i will continue to complaint because it´s new to me!! i am pretty sure than this kinda stuff when it was new to you, you probably also had a thing or two to say about it, that doesn´t mean i am blaming the clients, the community, the freelancers, the competitors... etc.. it only means i felt frustrated about it, and tried to reach the community for help and advice, please i ask you kindly, don´t feel attacked by that.


1) If you want to "reach the community for help and advice", then do that. Plenty of people here are very helpfull, if you actually ask them for help. Starting of with a long rant why things are so horrible for you, while other freelancers had it much easier is not the way to go. Next time, just explain what you are struggling with, and ask for advice. That way your thread will probably not turn so ugly as this one.

 

2) Use the quote option when replying to someone. It makes it easier to follow the discussion.

 

3) Starting as a freelancer is not easy for anyone. I probably had it easier than most, but still I put in a lot of work. I also reached out to this community a lot for help and advice, and I got it. (Thanks everyone!) It's all about what attitude you come in to the forum with, and how you ask for advice. I will also say that I'm glad I joined Upwork when I did, 2,5 years ago, as I do think it is harder to get started now than before. But, if it's harder or easier doesn't matter, cause you can't do anything about it. It is what it is.

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Freelancing is a gamble - To win you need skill, luck and a strategy


Tatyana M wrote:

 

However, I do find that since I am in the US, if I filter for clients who only want US based freelancers, I don't compete with people on other coutries where $5/hr is reasonable. Are there similar filters for people in other countires?


Yes, there are filters for other countries - I'm on the "UK only" one. I haven't found that it's any real advantage, though - there are still plenty of clients who want projects done for low pay, and freelancers who are willing to provide it.


Christine wrote:

I haven't found that it's any real advantage, though - there are still plenty of clients who want projects done for low pay, and freelancers who are willing to provide it.

UK seems to be the favourite fake location for clients who found they didn't get enough quality applicants when being honest about their real location.

 

You can spot them usually - their English tells a story and they start posting jobs at hours way before the average Brit has had their first cuppa.

 




There are are filters for other countries - I'm on the "UK only" one.

UK is the only "other."

 


Petra R wrote:


UK is the only "other."

 


Really? That's interesting. You'd think that at the very least, there would be an "Australia only" option - it's quite difficult for freelancers in other parts of the world to serve that time zone.

Eek. Don't give them ideas. A sizeable proportion of projects I do are for Aussies. 


Christine A wrote:

Petra R wrote:


UK is the only "other."

 


Really? That's interesting. You'd think that at the very least, there would be an "Australia only" option - it's quite difficult for freelancers in other parts of the world to serve that time zone.


I don't think time zone is the issue when clients seek out freelancers from a specific location. 


Tonya P wrote:

I don't think time zone is the issue when clients seek out freelancers from a specific location. 


Indeed. Setting aside the linguistic, let alone ethnic, makeup of the countries for which clients can use filters, Upwork is probably following the money. Elance was more transparent about work statistics, even though it was privately held: They said most jobs came from the US, and most hires were from within the US. I would not be surprised if that, with specific market varations, were the case for Upwork; nor if the money partly follows native English fluency.

Since it came up elsewhere in this thread, I’ll mention that below-market bidders come from all corners of the globe, including the US.

Very good point Douglas!

 

I only look at jobs that are fashion design related. When I search for US based freelancers with the search term "fashion design", the first 5-6 pages of freelancers are charging in the $20-$100/hr+ range. However, when I search globally, there are plenty of freelancers charging $20/hr or less with good JSS and good portfolios. 

 

In my case, it makes sense to only seach jobs that want US based freelancers, but now I see it is not the case for all fields/specalizations. I think we will all have to be more selective when applying for jobs once the free connects stop. 


Christine A wrote:

Petra R wrote:


UK is the only "other."

 


Really? That's interesting. You'd think that at the very least, there would be an "Australia only" option - it's quite difficult for freelancers in other parts of the world to serve that time zone.


What? Which world do you live in? You do know that Australia has the same (or at least +/- a couple of hours) time zone as Asia? You know, the continent on earth with the biggest population...

________________________
Freelancing is a gamble - To win you need skill, luck and a strategy
ottavinidesign
Community Member

I see what Jesús is trying to say here, and while we don't have specific data or anything about those job posts, the big amount of fake/low quality jobs should be allarming for any freelancer out there (either a newbie or a well-established one).

 

Yes, it has always been like that...but now that the freelancers will have to pay for each proposal they send (actually I haven't been following Upwork at all since they announced that pay-to-propose garbage, did it go through? I'd say 99% sure, right? I occasionally look at the job posts in my field though)...I feel like Upwork should do a better job getting rid of that trash, especially with all these costs the freelancers (and to some extent the clients) have to go through.

 

How is Upwork gonna value how many connects ($) a job is worth when most of the jobs either have a placeholder budget or are simply fake jobs, scouting for a price? What about the ones that just are not gonna happen (something comes up, the client already thought it through and doesn't want to hire for that job anymore but the job just stays up for whatever reason)...or maybe the good 'ole unreasonable ones (like the 20 vid/ad for 20$).

 

Where's the issue you might ask? The issue is that while some of the "big shots" here are gonna push their narrative of "This is not gonna change anything for you"...what they really mean is "This is not gonna change anything for me", either because they already have a good network of recurring clients or are simply well-established top-of-the-chain so they don't have to apply as much (or at all).

 

My POV is the one from an average freelancer...who still gets invites (altough they're 90% of the times atrocious...thanks Upwork "talent specialists") but mainly has to rely on proposing to "good jobs" to really do anything, which is why a higher amount of low quality jobs bothers me a great deal.

The more trash you leave hanging around, the more trash you'll attract, while pushing forward 2 elements:

 

- A bad look on your platform overall: Nobody wants to be known as "This is the platform where all the scammers and 5-buck-stoners hang", right? (Altough I feel like other platforms are beating Upwork on that front...for now)

 

- Some really tough-to-deal-with misinformation to the clients. I've seen so many logo-design job posts range from 5$ to 35$ with the "Expert" or "Intermediate" skill requirements...and a lot of proposals to those jobs aswell. Now, what do you think a client would do while setting his price? He's gonna check whatever other people put, and based on that, set his own price.

Yes, you're supposed to show and explain to the client why you're worth x etc...but with the paid connects rolling out soon that's gonna be a bit tougher to deal with.

I don't feel like spending x$ to try and explain to Billy the car salesman that just because he made an incomprehensible scribble on a crumpled piece of paper, that doesn't count as an "idea" or "concept"...and even if it did, that doesn't mean "-90% of the pay because I gave you the concept" (that's funny because right now, on the 1st page of the graphic design section there's atleast 2 people with that MO...super low pay, but hey...they already have the idea so you just have to "do it").

I would like to discuss with him about his budget and try to inform him how a very low budget could be risky and usually tends to attract very low-quality freelancers which could get him in trouble (copyright infringement and all that), but when I have to pay to do that, and maybe even get a "bad" response from the dude? Nah, I'm just gonna pass.

 

People are gonna gravitate towards other platforms or simply go back to their usual irl business...(I know I did), because the platform doesn't offer anything of value for the investment that it requires from you. The more Upwork shows that they simply don't care...the more people are not gonna care and flock away.


Davide O wrote:

I see what Jesús is trying to say here, and while we don't have specific data or anything about those job posts, the big amount of fake/low quality jobs should be allarming for any freelancer out there (either a newbie or a well-established one).

 

I feel like Upwork should do a better job getting rid of that trash, especially with all these costs the freelancers (and to some extent the clients) have to go through.


Everything that you've said is true, but let me ask you: What - specifically - do you think that Upwork should do to get rid of all these low-quality clients? Thousands of jobs are posted every week requesting hundreds of different tasks, so Upwork would need to hire employees who are experts in all of these different areas and have them comb through every project posting to determine whether the client is legit, offers fair pay, and whether the job is "high quality" or not. And all of these things are subjective to a large extent; one freelancer might think that a job is interesting and reasonably paid, while another strongly disagrees. It would be expensive - in terms of time spent and increased overheads for employee salaries - and extremely difficult to to make judgments about each and every job post.

 

Therefore, don't you think that it makes more sense for people who ARE experienced at doing these types of jobs - i.e. us, the freelancers - to read the job posts and determine whether we're willing to work on these projects, for these clients, at what prices? And then either bid or not bid accordingly?

 

I do think that Upwork could be doing more to help clients post slightly more detailed RFPs, however. I repeatedly suggested to Elance over the years that they should add an optional, fill-in-the blank section that asks a client how long/how many pages/how many words their projects are, and I still have no idea why this simple suggestion can't be implemented.

 

Christine, FWIW LinkedIn does use those type of fields, and the information provide is almost always either useless or misleading--clients don't really know the answers in many cases, or even have a common understanding of "page" (which could be 250 to thousands of words depending on spacing and font).


Tiffany S wrote:

Christine, FWIW LinkedIn does use those type of fields, and the information provide is almost always either useless or misleading--clients don't really know the answers in many cases, or even have a common understanding of "page" (which could be 250 to thousands of words depending on spacing and font).


I know that it's not a perfect solution - and like I said, it can be optional to fill out - but anything that nudges a client into giving slightly more detailed information would be a welcome change. There are currently way too many fixed price projects like "I need a PowerPoint presentation", with no indication of whether you're supposed to be bidding on 10 slides or 100 slides. Even a rough estimate would be better than absolutely nothing. 

Do exactly the same they are doing to freelancers, charge connects for putting jobs out there, or make them pay to escrow the full amount before posting, something that makes them invest some money to get in the pool of freelancers, they are gonna have to think twice before posting a fake job or something.

Was about to say pretty much the same thing Davide said. While I know this is a long time issue ( crappy job postings, I mean) I think there are 2 things that most of you are missing here:

1. change will not come if we do not speak about it

2. the changes that they've made now, forcing freelancers to pay to apply to jobs SHOULD come with some kind of system to fix this job posting issue

You all jumped on silencing Jesús and invalidating his complaint, instead of actually supporting this and forcing Upwork to have an open and true conversation about this very important issue.

 

Instead of telling everyone who mentions this issue to "work it out and suck it up", freelancers could/should actually request from Upwork to make it a fair playing field between freelancers and clients. At the moment it seems clients have all the perks and freelancers have all the rules. Perhaps a slight exaggeration to prove my point, however I'm a bit baffled at how most freelancers prefer to roll over or even attack others for speaking out.


Andreea B wrote:

Was about to say pretty much the same thing Davide said. While I know this is a long time issue ( crappy job postings, I mean) I think there are 2 things that most of you are missing here:

1. change will not come if we do not speak about it

2. the changes that they've made now, forcing freelancers to pay to apply to jobs SHOULD come with some kind of system to fix this job posting issue

You all jumped on silencing Jesús and invalidating his complaint, instead of actually supporting this and forcing Upwork to have an open and true conversation about this very important issue.

 

Instead of telling everyone who mentions this issue to "work it out and suck it up", freelancers could/should actually request from Upwork to make it a fair playing field between freelancers and clients. At the moment it seems clients have all the perks and freelancers have all the rules. Perhaps a slight exaggeration to prove my point, however I'm a bit baffled at how most freelancers prefer to roll over or even attack others for speaking out.


First of all, disagreeing with someone is not the same thing as attacking them. Secondly, I don't think that anyone disputed that there are bad clients here - we all know perfectly well that there are. (There are also plenty of bad freelancers; take a look at the clients' forum if you're in any doubt.) So let me ask you the same thing that I asked Davide above - what do you think that Upwork should do to solve the problem? How about some constructive suggestions instead of just complaints?

Christine: I DID felt attacked by all the waves of experienced freelancers feeling offended by what i said, Talking bad about other freelancers was NEVER in this thread´s goal, actually it NEVER was my intention to say something bad about you guys i have said repeatedly that i respect you, and i could EASILY ask YOU the same thing, got any solution? you that, have more experience freelancing, i already said something.... clients should have a connect (or similar) system, they should be paying a fee, even if it is small, they should invest on posting jobs, i mean if they are out here it should SHOULD mean theay are hiring someone, so they got a money....

petra_r
Community Member


Jesús Mateo R wrote:

clients should have a connect (or similar) system, they should be paying a fee, even if it is small, they should invest on posting jobs, i mean if they are out here it should SHOULD mean theay are hiring someone, so they got a money....


What a great idea!

 

It would remove most of the fake clients and most of the real ones, so there would be hardly any work and Upwork would go out of business within a month.

 

That would solve all the Upwork problems because there would no longer BE an Upwork. I am sure everyone would be perfectly happy then.

 

(Again, this idea has been brought up and debunked hundreds of times.)

 

Why do you think none of the larger platforms do anything so suicidal? Because getting rid of clients and creating barriers to entry for new clients is absolute insanity.

 


Jesús Mateo R wrote:

 i could EASILY ask YOU the same thing, got any solution? you that, have more experience freelancing,


Learn to scan the job posts and identify those most likely to lead to success. Look for the most profitable contracts. Look after the clients you do win so they come back to you or stay with you long term. Make your proposals and your profile as attractive as you can. Find your unique selling point and sell it well.

 

On a platform that has way too many freelancers (removing 30-40% of lower quality, less successful freelancers would be another effective, but not very popular solution) and not enough clients, anything that attracts clients is a good thing. Sure, that means there are more less great clients, too, but that just means freelancers have to improve their client- and job post filtering skills.

 

I certainly do not want Upwork to reduce the available client pool, just because some people lack the skills to filter what they apply to or can't be bothered to do so.

 

 

2f5ff562
Community Member

Dear Petra, i didn´t came here to put everyone against me, (may seems that way, i know right?...) 

So please take my apoligize for being rude, we are all freelancer on the same platform, we are in the forums to help each other, or something.

petra_r
Community Member


Jesús Mateo R wrote:

we are in the forums to help each other, or something.


I spend a lot of my time helping.

The thing is when newbies burst in wailing and aggressive and complaining and frankly clueless, and then get aggressive when people who actually do know what they are talking about give them a reality check.

 

Either you want help to be more successful, or you just want to whine and play the victim. Make up your mind and then either start to listen to get help, or continue the way you have been and continue to get the responses you have been getting.

 

Your choice.

 

 

2f5ff562
Community Member

Yes! i have made my choice, and it´s neither of the ones you present, those are not the only ones, i am not playing the victim here, i am not being agressive, i am responding how i´m being adressed, those ¨whines¨ you are talking about are genuine new freelancer issues, thing is you are sick of listening to them, an i get it! i get it!.
I am listening, i have made a lot of changes to my profile and my attitud towards my freelancing carrer, to my proposals, being more selective, i learned how these thing are not new, that actually encourages me, and i gotta say the responses i have beeing getting, the agressive ones, comes from the same 4 to 5 people, other freelancers, newbies and gurus don´t have that kind of reaction. I have learned from your comments here on this thread and others, thank you for helping us, keep doing that! we appreciate it, just as a recommendation if i may, don´t take this personal this ain´t an attack to you or anything, being nice to ¨rude¨ people really comes a long way.

petra_r
Community Member


Jesús Mateo R wrote:


I am listening, i have made a lot of changes to my profile and my attitud towards my freelancing carrer, to my proposals, being more selective, i learned how these thing are not new, that actually encourages me.


Good, so it was worthwhile.

🙂

All,

 

A few posts have been removed from this thread. Please, be mindful of the Community Guidelines and respectful toward other participants even if your opinions differ.

 

Thanks.

~ Valeria
Upwork


Jesús Mateo R wrote:

Christine: I DID felt attacked by all the waves of experienced freelancers feeling offended by what i said, Talking bad about other freelancers was NEVER in this thread´s goal, actually it NEVER was my intention to say something bad about you guys i have said repeatedly that i respect you, and i could EASILY ask YOU the same thing, got any solution? you that, have more experience freelancing, i already said something.... clients should have a connect (or similar) system, they should be paying a fee, even if it is small, they should invest on posting jobs, i mean if they are out here it should SHOULD mean theay are hiring someone, so they got a money....


I thought that we had already made peace with our different views, and now I feel like we're going around in circles here, so this is the last post that I'm going to make on this particular thread. 

 

Since you evidently need to be reminded, you did in fact attack the more experienced freelancers when you said that the only reason we were successful is that things were easier for us. Completely untrue, and extremely insulting as well. 

 

As for me never providing any solutions, again, this is untrue and sounds very much like an "attack". I have never said that Upwork is perfect and I frequently make comments and suggestions about what I feel could be improved. I'm sorry that my views don't concur with yours, but I've been around long enough that I know certain things won't work. Why? Because some of them have already been tried before, and failed. Other suggestions that you've made are already in place on other websites - such as making clients pay to post projects and vetting them in advance - so if you think that that's a good solution, please feel free to send me a private message and I'll give you some links so you can go ahead and try your luck. I'm serious here - I'm only trying to help.

I have learned from what you have posted in this thread, reading my comment again it does sound a little harsh, i know you are trying to help, you are helping me indeed, i literally dont think the only reason you are

 succesful is because thing were easier before, i have apologized, and i´ll do it again, that´s not what i think, what i did say is that i thought it´s even harder now, which i have come to realize thanks to you all, is that all these struggles i see now have always been around. I am really sorry we are in such a dispute,  now i´ll be marked as the dude who hates experienced freelancers, lol, i don´t! dang... Ok... this thread is kinda getting nowhere now. And i also don´t think you never provide a solution your community profile states it very clear when it says 14 solutions and more than 300 kudos, i was just frustrated with this thread and snapped at your comment maybe, sorry.

THANK YOU ANDREEA! that is exactly what i mean.

I have found a lot threads recently that are talking about this, and it really bumps me, seeing all the same people saying the same argument over and over again, to"work it out and suck it up".  I do understand you, seeing all these ¨newbies¨ trying to pull a revolution on a thing that has always been the same, but i ask all of you, would you please consider that we actually might have a point here? and maybe support this? or at least, stop being so deffensive about it, if you so say, you dont have a problem with this issues, well then keep on working on your jobs, for us we feel this is an issue and we are going to do something about it, let us, if you could just stop complaining about our complaints, we will move on and continue trying to be succesful and try to demand Upwork what we think is right, as you say, you won´t be affected by it.

Yes! although i feel it´s not against other feelancers we aren´t cannibals, we are putting our complaints here againt´s some clients, and how upwork won´t have some filters to have better clients.

I mean wound´t you be happier if there were more good clients? that you get new clients more often? that you wouldn´t have to remove 100 to get 1 good one? if you do... Then i think we could be on the same boat here...

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