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Refund connects when application's withdrawn, please

Active Member
Marco C Member Since: Aug 28, 2015
91 of 116

I'm a simple Artist and I love Upwork.

 

As person that has used Upwork for years, a person that has recommended the website to countless people and continues to do so, I find some of the "Community Guru's" answers here appalling, and a complete lack of respect towards other users. If this is our community and how we treat each other, then I just lost a bit of soul.

 

First of all, regardless of what would be best for the Upwork platform, the people who commented here raise a valid point: if you withdraw a proposal, you should get your connects refunded. At this point in time, what Upwork is doing is, at the very least, unethical.

 

There is absolutely no need or drive for a freelancer to withdraw proposals, if they get nothing in return. Worse, by doing so, they lose the very slim chance that the client might come back much later and actually hire them through that old, old proposal they made. This alone accounts for the stated argument that "clients would be overwhelmed with proposals if they were refundable". Well, from what I can tell, the platform contributes to that overload by itself, by not refunding proposals, and as such, not giving any reason to freelancers to withdrawn any proposal whatsoever, EVEN if it was a mistake.

 

Personally, I  have never needed all my connects. This is to address any possible " you're just complaining because you're out of connects" accusations. 

 

Then there is also the problem of freelancers who just started (many might need all the connects they can get), and this current system also cripples those, potentially eliminating and discouraging freelancers from the very start, who might end up leaving the business all together. We already have to compete against low-pay, third world country freelancers here, I don't think not giving back connects to freelancers is something that's needed.

 

Even if for ethics alone, Upwork should in fact, give back what they took from freelancers. Of course, this would not be a problem if extra connects were free. However, they are paid. I am well aware that the monthly amount of connects should be enough for you if you have skill. That's all besides the point. For as much as I love Upwork, I can see the website is at fault here. Nothing is perfect, and this is merely my contribution towards this discussion. I hope I won't get any nasty answers, like some users did.

 

And finally, I would also like to point out, that it is Upwork's and it's staff's job, to eliminate spam proposals and the overwhelming amount that clients get. Not refunding proposals is not the way to do that, it has never been, and quite honestly, in my view, never will be. 

 

Thank you all for reading and have a nice day.

 

 

 

 

Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
92 of 116

@Marco C wrote:

it is Upwork's and it's staff's job, to eliminate spam proposals


Considering that Upwork has 10 millions of registered users this would be impossible to achieve.

 

The good news although that is there is another, easier, way to limit spammy proposals: limiting the number of connects. Not refunding them is a way to do this.

 

People who lack any marketable skills who spam clients are hurting Upwork credibility and are a burden for the clients. And they only have 60 connects per month. Imagine if they had their connects refunded, making them virtually illimited?

 

This is why Upwork will never refund connects.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
Community Guru
Katrina B Member Since: Jan 9, 2011
93 of 116

Nor should they.  I have seen several reviews from clients about this on review sites. They say over half the proposals they see have no experience whatsoever in the project they are posting about.  Can you imagine how that number would go up if people could get refunded?  

 

60 is plenty.  

"Fairness is giving all people the treatment they earn and deserve. It doesn't mean treating everyone alike-Coach John Wooden"
Active Member
Marco C Member Since: Aug 28, 2015
94 of 116

@Rene K wrote:

@Marco C wrote:

it is Upwork's and it's staff's job, to eliminate spam proposals


Considering that Upwork has 10 millions of registered users this would be impossible to achieve.

 

The good news although that is there is another, easier, way to limit spammy proposals: limiting the number of connects. Not refunding them is a way to do this.

 

People who lack any marketable skills who spam clients are hurting Upwork credibility and are a burden for the clients. And they only have 60 connects per month. Imagine if they had their connects refunded, making them virtually illimited?

 

This is why Upwork will never refund connects.


A valid point.

 

However I stand by my previous statement. We recognize the problem, and we also recognize the difficult solution for it. Crippling and unethically robbing freelancers of their proposals is not the way to solve it. As you yourself, and even other members have said so themselves, even with this policy in place, clients still get overwhelmed with proposals. Something that should not happen frequently, it should be an exception.

 

To put things into perspective, let's think of a bigger company than Upwork: Google for instance. I'm positive, that Google's spam emails and bot accounts are a problem thousands of times greater than what it currently is for Upwork, due to the sheer overwhelming amount of users it has. As such, Google put into place automated procedures to block these things, such as a spam folder that filters out unwanted emails, captcha systems and others.

 

In essence, Google solved the problem much more efficiently than Upwork ever did, on a scale 1000x bigger, and without being unethical to their costumers and users.

 

This is just an example, it doesn't mean  that this is the right solution for Upwork nor that it is not the right solution for Upwork. It simply points in the correct way.

 

Due to all of this on my mind, I am left with few other options than to think that Upwork maintains this system because of 2 situations:

 

1- The problem is too hard and costly to resolve properly, and as such, settles for a far less efficient solution even of it has its drawbacks.

 

2- Since extra connects are paid, it preys on starting freelancers or simply those who are in need of more connects, making extra money in the process.

 

Again, I love Upwork and will continue to use and recommend it. However I still feel like it is wrong on this matter.

 

Thank you all for your answers.

Community Guru
Jennifer M Member Since: May 17, 2015
95 of 116

"Crippling and unethically robbing freelancers of their proposals is not the way to solve it."

 

LOL wat???

 

For free, you have the opportunity to connect with someone who can potentially earn you thousands of dollars. For free, you can sit on your butt and throw proposals all day at the system and it costs you nothing. You don't have to market, deal with payment systems, don't need to drive anywhere, don't need to even get dressed if you don't want to!

 

How is this "robbing" you of something that you're taking for free and using per the terms of the site? Welcome to life buddy. You take risks and hope they work out. There is the risk that you're not going to win with every proposal. Deal with it and figure it out. 

Active Member
Marco C Member Since: Aug 28, 2015
96 of 116

@Jennifer M wrote:

"Crippling and unethically robbing freelancers of their proposals is not the way to solve it."

 

LOL wat???

 

For free, you have the opportunity to connect with someone who can potentially earn you thousands of dollars. For free, you can sit on your butt and throw proposals all day at the system and it costs you nothing. You don't have to market, deal with payment systems, don't need to drive anywhere, don't need to even get dressed if you don't want to!

 

How is this "robbing" you of something that you're taking for free and using per the terms of the site? Welcome to life buddy. You take risks and hope they work out. There is the risk that you're not going to win with every proposal. Deal with it and figure it out. 


Quite the aggressive answer, when all I am trying to do, is debate peacefully on this matter.

 

Nevertheless, and contrary to your statement, Upwork is not a free service. It is a "free service" until you get paid, which is the whole point of this platform. For you as a freelancer to grow and make money. You pay your percentage to Upwork when you get receive your payments. 

 

 

 

Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
97 of 116

Marco C wrote:

 

Crippling and unethically robbing freelancers of their proposals is not the way to solve it.

 

I don't agree. Upwork gives you 60 free connects to answers RFP, this is a bargain. Try to market yourself outside of a platform and see what it cost.

 

As you yourself, and even other members have said so themselves, even with this policy in place, clients still get overwhelmed with proposals. 

 

Yes, so imagine the situation with illimited connects.

 

To put things into perspective, let's think of a bigger company than Upwork: Google for instance. I'm positive, that Google's spam emails (...)

 

This is different. As a client I'm not confortable in Upwork filtering the proposals I receive by have it read by an algorythm to decide whether they are pertinent or not. I prefer Upwork requires applicants to put some skin in the game.

 

The key is to learn how to sell yourself. If a provider has hard time earning money with 60 free connects, it means that either they are doing something wrong, or their category is oversaturated. 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
Active Member
Marco C Member Since: Aug 28, 2015
98 of 116

@Rene K wrote:

@Marco C wrote:

 

Crippling and unethically robbing freelancers of their proposals is not the way to solve it.

 

I don't agree. Upwork gives you 60 free connects to answers RFP, this is a bargain. Try to market yourself outside of a platform and see what it cost.

 

As you yourself, and even other members have said so themselves, even with this policy in place, clients still get overwhelmed with proposals. 

 

Yes, so imagine the situation with illimited connects.

 

To put things into perspective, let's think of a bigger company than Upwork: Google for instance. I'm positive, that Google's spam emails (...)

 

This is different. As a client I'm not confortable in Upwork filtering the proposals I receive by have it read by an algorythm to decide whether they are pertinent or not. I prefer Upwork requires applicants to put some skin in the game.

 

The key is to learn how to sell yourself. If a provider has hard time earning money with 60 free connects, it means that either they are doing something wrong, or their category is oversaturated. 

 


Hmm. I see your view.

 

As a client, (I've never hired before on Upwork),  would you not prefer better measures to be put in place, rather than the non refundable connects policy alone?

 

Would you say it is an impossible task?

 

This has been quite the enlightening conversation. Thanks again for all your answers.

 

Have a great day.

Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
99 of 116

@Marco C wrote:

 

As a client, (I've never hired before on Upwork),  would you not prefer better measures to be put in place, rather than the non refundable connects policy alone?

 

Would you say it is an impossible task?

 

This has been quite the enlightening conversation. Thanks again for all your answers.

 

Have a great day.



As a client, I don't give a frakk about providers losing their connects. I don't want spam, I want relevant proposals.

 

As a freelancer, I don't want more connects, I want less connects. I know how to market myself, I know how to get hired, I don't need more connects. I don't want to see the clients running away because their RFP is flooded by cra**y proposals sent by zombies.

 

I want a professional marketplace, with professional people who compete on quality, not on quantity. 

 

I can't wait for the day when Upwork gets rid of the free connects system.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
Active Member
Marco C Member Since: Aug 28, 2015
100 of 116

 


@Rene K wrote:

@Marco C wrote:

 

As a client, (I've never hired before on Upwork),  would you not prefer better measures to be put in place, rather than the non refundable connects policy alone?

 

Would you say it is an impossible task?

 

This has been quite the enlightening conversation. Thanks again for all your answers.

 

Have a great day.



As a client, I don't give a frakk about providers losing their connects. I don't want spam, I want relevant proposals.

 

As a freelancer, I don't want more connects, I want less connects. I know how to market myself, I know how to get hired, I don't need more connects. I don't want to see the clients running away because their RFP is flooded by cra**y proposals sent by zombies.

 

I want a professional marketplace, with professional people who compete on quality, not on quantity. 

 

I can't wait for the day when Upwork gets rid of the free connects system.


 I see.

 

Well, we clearly disagree on that topic, even though good points have been made by many people on both sides.

 

I hope that in the future, Upwork does work towards resolving this issue, while also making the platform less riddled with "zombies" as you described so as to not scare away clients/buyers.

 

Happy working to all of you.

 

 

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