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eric5037
Community Member

Refund not hurting the JSS

Hi, 

 

I did some jobs for a client and the last one is no longer needed: he discovered he just didn't needed me anymore, basically because it can do what he needs by himself very easily. 

 

I have to give a refund but as my client said, it's absolutely not my fault and he's ok to contact Upwork to clarify that in order to avoid my JSS hurting. 

 

Is that possible to do that?

 

Thank you.

34 REPLIES 34
yeasir_arafat_13
Community Member

Refunds don't affect JSS.
If the job was completed successfully and the client leaves positive feedback, a job will contribute to the freelancer's JSS positively even if freelancer issued a refund.


Yeasir A wrote:
Refunds don't affect JSS.
If the job was completed successfully and the client leaves positive feedback, a job will contribute to the freelancer's JSS positively even if freelancer issued a refund.

Thanks, Yeasir

 

Are you sure that refunds don't affect JSS?

a refund sounds to me to failure, to not doing the job at all or right. Am I wrong?

 

Why a freelancer would issue a refund if he completed successfullly completed it?

 

In that particular case, the client thought he needed me and he discovered he didn't need me anymore, that's it! He opens a contract, doesn't need the job done anymore and then just want a refund.

 

Pay no attention to Yeasir.


Janean L wrote:

Pay no attention to Yeasir.


ok, that's what I was asking myself. Can you be more explicit?

 

I just have to make a refund for a job that is not needed anymore, will my JSS be hurt even if my client explains the situation?

(1) For better or for worse, the JSS is essentially controlled by an Upwork algorithm. Explanations and human intervention do not seem to be part of it. The only input that appears to "count" is numerical -- and no one can tell you for sure what numbers count and how each is weighed.

 

As far as anyone knows, no one at Upwork is authorized to go in and change the numbers by hand, no matter how justified the reason is, no matter how good an argument you can make as to why that should be done. The algorithm appears not to take "fault" into consideration, but (rather) simply whatever the algorithm defines as "successful outcome." (Meaning: if the Almighty Algorithm has determined that a refund is "Bad," then a refund hurts you, even if this particular refund was done for a "neutral" or "harmless" reason.) (But, then again, maybe refunds count against you only if there are more than three or four on your profile -- or maybe only if the client has a certain score. We really don't know for sure.)

 

It has been suggested that if even a small amount of money is paid on a contract, that fact is good for the JSS algorithm. So, for instance, if a client agrees that your initial time and effort are worth a few dollars ($3 ? $5 ?), even on a contract that did not ultimately "go the distance," a nearly-complete refund might well be much better than a complete refund. That is, if you are paid even $5 on the contract, the Algorithm likes that fact. (But this is a guess. An educated guess, but a guess.)

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

Was it all in one contract (you're keeping one milestone but refunding another) or a separate contract (you'll end up with no payment on that contract)?


Tiffany S wrote:

Was it all in one contract (you're keeping one milestone but refunding another) or a separate contract (you'll end up with no payment on that contract)?


I took the contract and didn't take it anymore.

 

That client have been on upwork for a long time (he knew elance) and tells me that it won't hurt my JSS. Should I trust that?

 

Never, it will never affect the JSS, if the refund is made within one contract.

Janean,
It's obvious that refunds don’t affect JSS.
Don’t you know that?

Eric,
Yes, I am sure that refunds don't affect JSS

As there are a lots of reasons of refunds, just like your case.

Also, sometimes clients mistakenly, approve extra milestones which they didn't want to do, and ask for refund, which is never a freelancers fault. As freelancer has done everything right.

So, if you consider various reasons like these, you will find refunds doesn’t mean that the job was not successful.

So, refunds are just part of contracts, no affect on your JSS if client gives you postive public and private feedbacks

I find Yeasir absolutely correct.
It's the ultimate solution at this point.

 

 

"I find Yeasir absolutely correct.
It's the ultimate solution at this point."
By this, I assume what you mean is that Yeasir is saying something (1) that could, in a rational universe, be true and correct (although there is no evidence whatsoever that the Upwork universe applies this reasoning); and (2) that is consistent with what you want to hear and what you, personally, hope to be true.
If you actually are in possession of any evidence that Yeasir is "correct" and/or has arrived at any "ultimate solution," please do let us know and share that evidence with the rest of us.
gilbert-phyllis
Community Member

Now THIS is a great question! As Janean noted, it's virtually impossible to foretell exactly what effect a specific event will have on an individual's JSS. I'm thinking if you refund the fee, then any private fb the client leaves will remain in your history and factor into your JSS accordingly. But there would be no public fb--and would there be a "fb removed" notice? 

 

I'd consider asking the cilent to accept a refund of all but a couple of dollars (and, presumably but I would not mention it, to leave fb commensurate with the quality of work done on the not-needed-after-all assignment). That way, it's a successful outcome.

For all you have little knowledge regarding this,

Yeasir --

 

The note you just published appears to refer to a refund for a MILESTONE, not for a complete/entire JOB. The note refers to a "job [that] was completed successfully." The best information available within the Forum suggests that a COMPLETE REFUND is, by definition, indicative of a job that was completed UN-successfully.

 

You are confusing a partial (milestone) refund with a COMPLETE (entire-job) refund.

Janean,
Then see this one, which says it just depend on the amount pertial or full no affect.
Also if it becomes no earnings contact then there would be no public feedback, it will have the private feedback in JSS.
Then also as Eric client wants to help in so that his JSS don't gets hurt abd is happy to co-operate then, the private feedback should be good which will count as positive outcome!

Hoping for your reply, Janean!

The phrase "Job Success Score doesn't depend on the amount of money paid on a contract" is consistent with the assumption that SOME money was paid on the contract. It is a reasonable response to a query about whether highly paid contracts count for "more" in a JSS calculation than do low-paying contracts. (response to such a query: The JSS algorithm doesn't distinguish between "high-" and "low-" paying contracts. "Job Success Score doesn't depend on the amount of money paid on a contract.")

 

However, SOME money must have been paid on the contract. The statement above is misleading if by "amount of money" you inaccurately assume that the "amount of money paid on the contract" can be ZERO, and that fact will not negatively affect the JSS.

 

A contract on which NO MONEY was paid -- that is, a ZERO-EARNINGS contract -- negatively affects the JSS, as far as the best information at hand indicates to the most experienced and knowledgeable contributors to this Forum. The result of a full refund is a ZERO-EARNINGS contract: by JSS-Algorithm definition, a negative outcome.

Now, Janean.
This is about full fund refund,
where the moderator has distinctly said that "a full refund will not affect your Job Success score negatively. If the job was completed successfully and the client was satisfied with the result and left positive public and private feedback, then it will postively affect your JSS.

So, if it become no earnings job but has positive private feedback then It's a postitive outcome for JSS.


Janean, what will you now say? Eagerly waiting for your response!


Yeasir A wrote:
Now, Janean.
This is about full fund refund,
where the moderator has distinctly said that "a full refund will not affect your Job Success score negatively. If the job was completed successfully and the client was satisfied with the result and left positive public and private feedback, then it will postively affect your JSS.

So, if it become no earnings job but has positive private feedback then It's a postitive outcome for JSS.

Janean, what will you now say? Eagerly waiting for your response!

No work has been done in that contract !

 

We had been talking for almost 2 months (only!) and how much for this and how much for that, wasting time until I understood it wasn't really going anywhere but the guy insisted to me to take the contract that we would fill with something. Well, guess what? he changed his mind. This is the situation.

 

In summary, I've wasted time and am just trying to avoid my JSS being hurt. 

 

 

It may well be that the dispositive criterion is what the client chooses as "reason job ended." 

 

I could speculate that if all three of the following criteria are met, then a fully-refunded contract may not have a negative effect on a JSS:  (1) Client selects "job no longer needed" ; and (2) Client selects high score for "would recommend this freelancer"/hire this freelancer again; and (3) Client provides excellent private feedback.

 

If, however, any single one of the above criteria are not met, a zero-earnings contract may negatively affect a freelancer's JSS. That is to say, these criteria are likely to be necessary IN THEIR ENTIRETY as a group; no single one of the three alone is sufficient to mitigate the negative effect of a zero-earnings contract.**Edited for Community Guidelines**


Janean L wrote:

It may well be that the dispositive criterion is what the client chooses as "reason job ended." 

 

I could speculate that if all three of the following criteria are met, then a fully-refunded contract may not have a negative effect on a JSS:  (1) Client selects "job no longer needed" ; and (2) Client selects high score for "would recommend this freelancer"/hire this freelancer again; and (3) Client provides excellent private feedback.

 

If, however, any single one of the above criteria are not met, a zero-earnings contract may negatively affect a freelancer's JSS. That is to say, these criteria are likely to be necessary IN THEIR ENTIRETY as a group; no single one of the three alone is sufficient to mitigate the negative effect of a zero-earnings contract.**Edited for Community Guidelines**


 

A perfect example of restraint I'm not so sure I'd be able to show - put a gold star on your forehead, Janean.

Yesaer, do you notice at all that these all say "if the job was completed successfully?" That clearly is not OP's situation--the job was not completed.

 

It is very irresponsible for you to be so categorical about something that could hurt other freelancers when you are obviously having trouble understanding the issue.


 

Hi Eric. I'm sure Petra will be along soon to give you the real facts. In the meantime, here's my version based on what she has said in the past.

 

First, it sounds like the client has not released any payment to you and has now closed the contract, so you have received an automatic request to refund the money in escrow.

 

This will result in a nothing-paid contact. Such a contract is automatically bad for your JSS IF the client leaves no feedback. However, if I'm correct in thinking that the client has already closed the contract, he must have left feedback for you. That being the case, I believe it doesn't matter that nothing is paid. What matters is the feedback. And that's a done deal. 

 

There's no point in the client contacting Upwork. But, if he hasn't already submitted feedback and he wants to help you, he can do so by submitting good feedback and selecting the "Job no longer needed" option.

 

You could ask the client to pay you something for the time you've wasted. That would have to be paid as a bonus, since the client can no longer release a milestone payment if he's closed the contract. But there seems little point in disputing the refund request if you haven't already begun work on the milestone.

 

 


Richard W wrote:

Hi Eric. I'm sure Petra will be along soon to give you the real facts. In the meantime, here's my version based on what she has said in the past.

 

First, it sounds like the client has not released any payment to you and has now closed the contract, so you have received an automatic request to refund the money in escrow.

 

This will result in a nothing-paid contact. Such a contract is automatically bad for your JSS IF the client leaves no feedback. However, if I'm correct in thinking that the client has already closed the contract, he must have left feedback for you. That being the case, I believe it doesn't matter that nothing is paid. What matters is the feedback. And that's a done deal. 

 

There's no point in the client contacting Upwork. But, if he hasn't already submitted feedback and he wants to help you, he can do so by submitting good feedback and selecting the "Job no longer needed" option.

 

You could ask the client to pay you something for the time you've wasted. That would have to be paid as a bonus, since the client can no longer release a milestone payment if he's closed the contract. But there seems little point in disputing the refund request if you haven't already begun work on the milestone.


Thanks, Richard for such a complete answer!

 

If he pays me the time I wasted, there is no problem anymore as he should pay me all of it, I mean we talk about 50$, nothing more.

 

He didn't close the contract, we've just been talking about it.

 

He thinks like you that giving me a great feedback is enough to have my JSS hurt.

No, if your client gives you a 10/10 private feedback, then it will never hurt your JSS in any way, rather it will affect JSS in a positive way.
dreamseller
Community Member


Eric B wrote:

Hi, 

 

I did some jobs for a client and the last one is no longer needed: he discovered he just didn't needed me anymore, basically because it can do what he needs by himself very easily. 

 

I have to give a refund but as my client said, it's absolutely not my fault and he's ok to contact Upwork to clarify that in order to avoid my JSS hurting. 

 

Is that possible to do that?

 

Thank you.


Hello Eric, 

 

How about keeping a token amount (e.g $5) and refunding the rest? Ask your client to edit the amount while approving milestone. So, you won't have a 'no pay' contract. Contacting support regarding this won't help at all. 

 

Best, 

Delwar 

 

 

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi Eric and others,

 

Jobs with no earnings are counted in JSS, either because they were closed or because several months have passed since a payment was received. So while a refund itself doesn't have any effect on JSS, a full refund will make a job a contract with no earnings. That said, if the contract was ended on good terms, any misunderstandings were resolved and feedback was provided accordingly, the job is unlikely to have a negative effect.

 

I'd also like to use this opportunity to remind the participants of this discussion of the Community Guidelines. Please, be respectful toward each other when posting on this boards.

 

Thank you.

~ Valeria
Upwork

Valeria, thank you for the reminder about community discussions, and the clarification of the effect of a total refund on JSS. So, if I can recap what you wrote, as of March 2019, the ultimate solution, as someone put it, is that a total refund is unlikely to effect JSS, which is not the same as absolutely no effect.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce
eric5037
Community Member


John K wrote:

Valeria, thank you for the reminder about community discussions, and the clarification of the effect of a total refund on JSS. So, if I can recap what you wrote, as of March 2019, the ultimate solution, as someone put it, is that a total refund is unlikely to effect JSS, which is not the same as absolutely no effect.


Thanks, John: I read it the same way that you do.

That's fine, instead of unfair, it's unlikely unfair. As JSS is a mystery, we'll never know.

 

Well, let's turn that to a positive experience: identify time wasters and get rid of them fast and when they come back, get rid of them even faster.

 

 


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Eric and others,

 

Jobs with no earnings are counted in JSS, either because they were closed or because several months have passed since a payment was received. So while a refund itself doesn't have any effect on JSS, a full refund will make a job a contract with no earnings. That said, if the contract was ended on good terms, any misunderstandings were resolved and feedback was provided accordingly, the job is unlikely to have a negative effect.

 

I'd also like to use this opportunity to remind the participants of this discussion of the Community Guidelines. Please, be respectful toward each other when posting on this boards.

 

Thank you.


Hey, Valeria. If it's been several months since a payment was received, then it's not a job with no earnings, right? There were earnings. Just trying to clarify.

 

As far as I understand things, open jobs that *have* had earnings won't negatively affect JSS even if it has been quite some time.

 

We are discussing *only* jobs with *no* earnings at all, correct?

 

To the OP: I had a client want to hire me (again) but then realize he didn't need the work. He was new, I was new, nobody thought to just have a five-buck payment made. 😄 He closed the project but apparently left great feedback for me. This seems to have offset the negative effects of the no-earnings contract as during that period, my JSS actually went up a scootch. Just my experience.

 

OTOH, you don't have that guarantee that a client will close a no-earnings contract and leave great feedback. When you think about it, why should she, when no work occured? I do feel this is kind of a weird policy, but I won't add to the general yelling about it, LOL.

Hi Melanie,

 

Contracts with a history of earnings but no feedback, whether closed or not, are mostly excluded from JSS. However, if the freelancer has many contracts where no feedback has been given, it can impact the score negatively.

~ Valeria
Upwork

HI Mam,

 

I need your help about refund and jss

My one client open contract and open one milestone $50 but project was $100  after long time client 

did not contact me  i sent him first draft of banner but client did not response on it

and after 1 month client request refund $50 milestone bcz project cancell I refund all $50  

 

please guide me it can bad effect for my JSS ?  client choose this ending reason  . I no longer need this work completed

 

Thanks

Hi Ali,

 

In general, when a contract fails to lead to any earnings your JSS will be negatively impacted. Contracts with no earnings and no feedback, whether closed or not, can significantly lower your JSS because they indicate client dissatisfaction. For more information, please check this help article

~ Joanne
Upwork

if client give 10 points ?

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