Remove 6-Day Escrow Blockade

[mobilyzz-sanjay]

Please remove 6 day escrow blocks after client releases the money. You have enough time to do security check when the client deposits escrow from his/her payment source. 

Six day block seems nothing to me but a way to hold our money to earn interest. Upwork already charges hefty fee, especially if the client is new. 

[nkocendova]

Hi Aniruddh,

The 5-days security period applies to all transactions on Upwork for safety and security reasons, and we are unable to shorten this period. I can confirm that Upwork does not earn any interest on the funds during the security period. We will continue to explore and test ways to reduce the time it takes for freelancers to access their earnings, however we don't have any immediate plans to reduce it for all transactions.

[wlyonsatl]

Hi, Nina.

I think all freelancers would like to see Upwork release payments quicker, especially when a client's payment has already been in escrow for many days.

Does Upwork put escrow funds in a separate account between client payment and release to the freelancer or does Upwork co-mingle funds received from clients with Upwork's own oerating funds?

If services like PayPal can send and receive funds within 24 hours with established accounts, it seems like Upwork could do the same. 

Thanks for any insights you can provide on this issue.

[nkocendova]

Hi Will,

I can confirm that Upwork doesn't move the funds anywhere from the time the client funds escrow to the time the funds are released to the freelancer, and that the funds are held for the standard 5 day period only for security reasons.

[tlsanders]

This is approximately the ten billionth time a freelancer has demanded this.

It makes sense that people want it.

What doesn't make sense is the number of people with zero knowledge, zero data, and zero understanding who announced that "there is no reason" as if it were a fact.

Nor the ones who demand that Upwork explain why it can't. Upwork is obviously under no obligation to (and would be stupid to) divulge its internal decision-making process and data in the forums. If it did, I doubt that more than a handful of freelancers would bother to read the years of data Upwork has collected and the extensive analysis it has performed.

And, what would happen if they did? My guess is a bunch of freelancers who really want to get paid faster would read all of the data and analysis and, without finding any specific fault with it, say, "Still, I think they should..."

[mobilyzz-sanjay]

You are implying that I have zero knowledge about this? I have worked in a company who managed escrow of a famous Freelancing website that no longer exists now.

Making us freelancers look like a fool won't make things right here. We know how things work, we build these systems, we make these solutions.

Only if Upwork has a will, it will do it. I see no reason of security here. I have worked on  projects that took more than 180 days to finish so I think it is more than enough time for Upwork to do security checks.

And please do not try some derogatory way to win this debate, please.

[petra_r]

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Aniruddh J wrote:. I see no reason of security here.

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 Just because you are unaware of the reasons and don't understand them does not invalidate them.

Clearly Upwork will not explain the exact possibilities for fraud (both from the client and (mostly) freelancer's side) which would be enabled if the security period went away, as it would not want to give dishonest users any ideas.

[mobilyzz-sanjay]

Just because you are unaware of the reasons and don't understand them does not invalidate them.

Clearly Upwork will not explain the exact possibilities for fraud (both from the client and (mostly) freelancer's side) which would be enabled if the security period went away, as it would not want to give dishonest users any ideas.

Seriously? It becomes my money once I complete the project. You still think Upwork "will not explain"?

I want to know what happens with my money for that 5-day period. I have earned it, the client receives their product immediately after we deliver it to them but we have to wait for so called "security period".

Again, making us freelancers look naive won't make your arguments right. You are talking no fact here, just trying to make us look dumb.

What kind of fraud can we do when the client agrees to pay us the money? Please at least think before you respond.

I never had this issue with Elance. 

[wlyonsatl]

If the "security period" DOES WORK to solve whatever problem Upwork is having with either freelancer or client fraud of some type, then making the problem public would not matter. These frauds would know Upwork has a solution and is putting the few frauds that use Upwork on notice that this particular ploy won't work.

If the "security period" IS NOT effective, then why would Upwork use it at all?

[mwiggenhorn]

The bottom line is that Upwork is a business and chooses how to run that business, including the security hold.  If you don't agree with their business decisions, you are free to work through other platforms.

[petra_r]

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@Aniruddh wrote:

1) What kind of fraud can we do when the client agrees to pay us the money?

2) Please at least think before you respond.

3) I never had this issue with Elance. 

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1) All sorts. Just because you don't understand what can (and does) happen does not mean it can't happen. A LOT of dodgy stuff gets found out and losses are prevented during those 6 days...

2) Oh I do. That's why I don't keep flogging a dead horse that's been flogged over and over again. At the end of the day Upwork has to run a business and protect itself against losses as efficiently as possible. If you don't like it, don't use Upwork and go elsewhere.

3) Always a fantastic idea to use a failed business model as an example of what worked so well. If it worked so well, why did it go under?

Aniruddh wrote: You are talking no fact here, just trying to make us look dumb.

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Not at all. There is absolutely no need to try and make you look dumb. You are doing an excellent job at that all by yourself.

[tlsanders]

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@Aniruddh J wrote:

Seriously? It becomes my money once I complete the project.

Not according to the terms you agreed to when you signed up here. In fact, you agreed that Upwork can hold your money for much longer than 5 days.

You still think Upwork "will not explain"?

Yes.

I want to know what happens with my money for that 5-day period. I have earned it, the client receives their product immediately after we deliver it to them but we have to wait for so called "security period".

The funds are held in escrow. If you don't know what that means, you can easily look it up. It's a very simple concept employed across a wide range of banking and business situations.

Again, making us freelancers look naive won't make your arguments right. You are talking no fact here, just trying to make us look dumb.

What's this "us freelancers" stuff? Petra IS a freelancer. So am I. 

It is, of course, not possible to "make" another person look naive. You reveal your level of knowledge and understanding through your own postings.

What kind of fraud can we do when the client agrees to pay us the money?

Remember how she pointed out that Upwork would OF COURSE not answer this question, as it would be providing tips to potential fraudsters? 

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[versailles]

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@Aniruddh J wrote:

You still think Upwork "will not explain"?

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It is very possible that they don't explain at all. Follow this discussion and you'll see if they do.

Well, they may explain the cogs of their fraud-prevention system in detail here it the community, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I too would love to see a reduced holding period, but I understand that it may never happen.

[tlsanders]

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@Aniruddh J wrote:

You are implying that I have zero knowledge about this? I have worked in a company who managed escrow of a famous Freelancing website that no longer exists now.

No, I'm not implying. I am stating directly that you have no knowledge of the testing Upwork has done, factors it has considered, success/failure rates of its transactions with various hold periods, etc.

The fact that the "famous freelancing site" with the superior system no longer exists is food for thought, though, hm?

[reinierb]

The OP should actually be glad that the holding period is only 5 days- on most other sites, it is usually 14 days...

Nonetheless, if a freeelancer's cash flow suffers because of a measly 5-day security period, that freelancer either doing something wrong (can't manage his business), or works at the bottom of the barrel. 

[mobilyzz-sanjay]

Let me explain:

What is an Escrow?

Escrow is a legal concept in which a financial instrument or an asset is held by a third party on behalf of two other parties that are in the process of completing a transaction. The funds or assets are held by the escrow agent until it receives the appropriate instructions or until predetermined contractual obligations have been fulfilled (between two parties).

The fact that the "famous freelancing site" with the superior system no longer exists is food for thought, though, hm?

Maybe for you because it suits your argument but for others it shouldn't. A closure of a company doesn't mean that it was doing bad job releasing the funds for freelancers on time.

All sorts. Just because you don't understand what can (and does) happen does not mean it can't happen. A LOT of dodgy stuff gets found out and losses are prevented during those 6 days...

That's your only response from the start. You are unable to mention a single security issue here. When I finish the work for my clients, I don't simply say "Hey, I have done lot of things. Please pay me." I explain them what specifically I did.

Nonetheless, if a freeelancer's cash flow suffers because of a measly 5-day security period, that freelancer either doing something wrong (can't manage his business), or works at the bottom of the barrel. 

Or maybe the freelancer is not getting enough jobs because his/her industry has lots of competition? Is this really a point here? Five days may be too less for you because you earn huge amount of money in your industry. There's a lot of difference between an automotive repair specialist, a legal consultant, a team manager & a backend developer. Apples and oranges.

What's this "us freelancers" stuff? Petra IS a freelancer. So am I. 

I specifically wrote this:

We know how things work, we build these systems, we make these solutions.

It means 'freelancers' who build these solutions, it means 'freelancers' with technical background.

I will not argue with you people on the topic you have expertise on. I would ask you to please listen to suggestions where I keep enough expertise.

The bottom line is that Upwork is a business and chooses how to run that business, including the security hold.  If you don't agree with their business decisions, you are free to work through other platforms.

I am kind of person who likes to see improvements in things I like rather than running away from it.

[tlsanders]

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@Aniruddh J wrote:

I will not argue with you people on the topic you have expertise on.

Since I am a former attorney and long-time legal writer with an extensive background in consumer financial protection issues, I would say that you're doing just that.

[petra_r]

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@Aniruddh J wrote:

Or maybe the freelancer is not getting enough jobs because his/her industry has lots of competition?

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 Or because of a super low JSS and poor feedback?

Bottom line is, there are endless posts about the security period and Upwork have extensively tested shorter security periods for different freelancer types and contract types.

Not sure what you are trying to achieve with yet another whining thread.

[mobilyzz-sanjay]

Or because of a super low JSS and poor feedback?

Again you dodged the real question and failed to provide specific reason and rather opted to personally attack me. 

Since I am a former attorney and long-time legal writer with an extensive background in consumer financial protection issues, I would say that you're doing just that.

Having enough experience with develpoing safe algorithm for financial institutions, I believe I have enough expertise to make suggestions here. I am seeing no valid counter arguments being put in this discussion. 

If you know the reason why not post it? The only security concern I can think from top of my mind is freelancer hacking client's account and approving the payment request. So, if Upwork is so much worried about such attempts, where is 2FA in first place?

[petra_r]

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@Aniruddh J wrote:

Again you dodged the real question

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 Again: Just because you don't KNOW what can happen does not mean it can't happen and I sure as hell won't start posting fraud ideas on a public forum.

Furthermore, nobody "owes" you any fraud ideas. I have no idea who you think you are to demand that Upwork or any user post stuff that does not belong in a public forum.

You can use the Upwork system or you can go elsewhere.

Your choice.

The "real question" is whether you can make the system Upwork provides work for you or whether you can't. They're not going to change their procedures because you whine about them.

So live with it or find a platform whose terms of service suit you better.

Simple.

[g_vasilevski]

Hi All,

Thank you for participating in this discussion. The thread will be closed for new replies due to the fact that the discussion has gone off topic.