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feed_my_eyes
Community Member

Reportable, or not reportable?

I just saw a project posted in which a client very carefully, and in great detail, describes two illustrations that they need and "invites" bidders to submit their ideas before being selected. The client then goes on to state that they are not "demanding" free work, simply "suggesting" it. In my opinion, this is pretty disingenuous and will obviously involve multiple freelancers spending hours of their time creating these illustrations for free. Should clients be allowed to skirt the rules like this, even though they're not technically violating the TOS?

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browersr
Community Member

Without seeing what they wrote I can only go on what you indicated below in that they directly said they are "suggesting it". If that is the case then it should be considered a violation. The intention should be that asking for free work is not allowed. That is the "severity" of the ask should not be the determining factor. An ask of free work is an ask whether it was "suggested" or "demanded". Upwork wants to get paid and the result of a demand or an ask of free work is the same. Upwork isn't getting paid. It's a violation.

 

Without regard to the above, I have a hard time feeling bad for a freelancer who does this. We are all adults here. You know you are giving free work and are accepting of it. That's on you. 

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21 REPLIES 21
lexidh
Community Member

In a perfect world, no freelancer would spend the time for free. 

I'd report, and let someone that could do something about it decide.

abinadab-agbo
Community Member

If the "ideas" they are asking for are designs, then it is free work.

Even though they were not specifically asking for it, they have made it clear that freelancers who violate the TOS and do free work will be at an advantage.

Something like, if you can do three mock-ups and send, it would be great.

 

It IS "flaggable".


Abinadab A wrote:

, they have made it clear that freelancers who violate the TOS and do free work will be at an advantage.


And once again: Freelancers who do free samples or offer to do so do NOT violate the TOS.

 

Clients who ask for it do (although Upwork recruiters STILL do for Enterprise clients but that is a different kettle of fish)

 


Petra R wrote:


And once again: Freelancers who do free samples or offer to do so do NOT violate the TOS.

 

Clients who ask for it do (although Upwork recruiters STILL do for Enterprise clients but that is a different kettle of fish)

 



Dear Petra R., 

Can you please confirm that jumping through hoops and going through contortions to help a client to violate the Upwork ToS, is NOT a violation of the ToS?


Abinadab A wrote:

Dear Petra R., 

Can you please confirm that jumping through hoops and going through contortions to help a client to violate the Upwork ToS, is NOT a violation of the ToS?


Show me the term it violates?

 

Upwork have confirmed repeatedly that it is NOT a violation, so it would be real nice if you could stop repeatedly claiming that it is.

Thanks ever so muchly.

 

petra_r
Community Member


Abinadab A wrote:

Petra R wrote:

Abinadab A wrote:

Dear Petra R., 

Can you please confirm that jumping through hoops and going through contortions to help a client to violate the Upwork ToS, is NOT a violation of the ToS?


Show me the term it violates?

 

Upwork have confirmed repeatedly that it is NOT a violation, so it would be real nice if you could stop repeatedly claiming that it is.

Thanks ever so muchly.

 


Show me where Upwork repeatedly confirmed that.

Then I'll show you the term it violates, since you can't see it by yourself.


**Edited for Community Guidelines**

 

It does not violate the terms of service to do free samples. **Edited for Community Guidelines**

 


Abinadab A wrote:

Petra R wrote:

Abinadab A wrote:

Dear Petra R., 

Can you please confirm that jumping through hoops and going through contortions to help a client to violate the Upwork ToS, is NOT a violation of the ToS?


Show me the term it violates?

 

Upwork have confirmed repeatedly that it is NOT a violation, so it would be real nice if you could stop repeatedly claiming that it is.

Thanks ever so muchly.

 


Show me where Upwork repeatedly confirmed that.

Then I'll show you the term it violates, since you can't see it by yourself.


Petra is right, it's not a violation to offer free work. But it ought to be.


Christine A wrote:


Petra is right, it's not a violation to offer free work. But it ought to be.


I actually disagree. There are (rare) occasions where it makes sense.

I am against freelancers being hindered in what they do any more than necessary. It should be up to professionals how they choose to run their business.

 

Rules like that are in place to protect those at the bottom of the foodchain, which is, to a degree, admirable, but I can't for the life of me see why it needs to be regulated.

 

Some people will use that freedom intelligently, others will learn the hard way not to offer free work.

Ultimately it is a win-win situation.

 

,


Petra R wrote:

Christine A wrote:


Petra is right, it's not a violation to offer free work. But it ought to be.


I actually disagree. There are (rare) occasions where it makes sense.

I am against freelancers being hindered in what they do any more than necessary. It should be up to professionals how they choose to run their business.

 

Rules like that are in place to protect those at the bottom of the foodchain, which is, to a degree, admirable, but I can't for the life of me see why it needs to be regulated.

 

Some people will use that freedom intelligently, others will learn the hard way not to offer free work.

Ultimately it is a win-win situation.

 

,


I have done mock-ups for clients outside of Upwork in cases where I've had to put together a pitch for a project worth thousands of pounds, but I still think it's a mistake to tolerate the practice here, where people are providing their free work to anonymous clients (many of whom are obvious scammers).

Hi Christine,

 

Could you please click on my name and send me a PM with the link of the job post you're referring to. I'll share it with our team for the review and take action as per our internal processes.

 

Edited to add:

 

It would be against the ToS for clients to request freelancers to do any free work. Please, see Upwork Terms of Use for more information.

 

That said, freelancers can offer and deliver work to their Upwork clients free of charge if they feel it's appropriate. It won't be a violation of Upwork ToS.

 

Thank you.

~ Bojan
Upwork
browersr
Community Member

Without seeing what they wrote I can only go on what you indicated below in that they directly said they are "suggesting it". If that is the case then it should be considered a violation. The intention should be that asking for free work is not allowed. That is the "severity" of the ask should not be the determining factor. An ask of free work is an ask whether it was "suggested" or "demanded". Upwork wants to get paid and the result of a demand or an ask of free work is the same. Upwork isn't getting paid. It's a violation.

 

Without regard to the above, I have a hard time feeling bad for a freelancer who does this. We are all adults here. You know you are giving free work and are accepting of it. That's on you. 

I wish that I could repeat what the client wrote, but that's against the community guidelines. It was pretty obvious to me that this is a client who knows perfectly well that he can't ask for free work, but is obviously hoping that freelancers will provide it anyway.

 

It seems to me that Upwork SHOULD make it a TOS violation for freelancers to provide free work.

 

Anyway, I did report it so it'll be interesting to see whether it gets taken down or not.

 


Christine A wrote:

 

It seems to me that Upwork SHOULD make it a TOS violation for freelancers to provide free work.

 

 


That is a slippery slope.  From the freelancer point of view how do you very rigidly define "free work". To give an example from my personal experience in mobile application development. Often I will engage in chat room dialog or a pre-engagement call to discuss the job. In most cases I will give information based on my professional experience to help guide the client who often does not have the background to understand key things about what's possible and how these projects work. Absolutely some of that I could easily charge for in terms of a consulting engagement. I am imparting expertise that the client could only get from a professional and this is expertise I would charge for during a consulting engagement. Now it's up to me to determine where the line is between being helpful and demonstrating value that I hope will lead to an offer versus essentially giving professional advice away that I could and should charge for. Do I really want Upwork to determine to what extent my sales process is giving "free work" versus a legitimate attempt to show value? Certainly not. Upwork does not have my expertise - nor yours - and I do not want them in anyway to make determinations that they are not qualified to make. 

 

A client asking for free work is rather binary. They either ask for it or they didn't. Not a lot of intuit there. For the freelancer though, as my example illustrates, the boundaries are not so clear. As a result I don't think UW should make it a terms violation on the freelancer side. Let us determine what is right for our own business. 

Scott is right on.

 

There IS some nuance here.

 

There IS a difference between a client simply being bad person and a freelancer doing something bad.

 

If a client asks for free work, he is almost certainly violating ToS, and is almost certainly a bad client, and probably a bad person.

 

If there is any gray area or uncertainty, a client should simply pay something. Pay for ten minutes of consultation time. Or a tiny test job. What will that cost you? Five dollars? Twenty dollars?

 

But for freelancers... Yes, I agree that there CAN be strategic, tactically logical instances in which a freelancer does some free work.

Hey Preston - How about a freelancer who edits a 17,632-word document for free - in the hope she will get her first job posted on her profile with a good rating.

re: "How about a freelancer who edits a 17,632-word document for free - in the hope she will get her first job posted on her profile with a good rating."

 

Such a (hypothetical) freelancer is a fool and I would not want her on the Upwork platform at all.

 

I'm certainly not saying that a freelancer doing free work is wise. Or doing the right thing.

 

I'm simply saying I agree that a client asking for free work and a freelancer doing free work are in different categories.

 

I understand that a freelancer doing work is unlikely to face any kind of Upwork-levied penalties against her.


But I have often expressed my displeasure at freelancer's doing free work. I'm not giving them a free pass.

Preston - That was not a hypothetical freelancer. That was an actual freelancer who did that editing job. Crummy client.


Joan S wrote:

Hey Preston - How about a freelancer who edits a 17,632-word document for free - in the hope she will get her first job posted on her profile with a good rating.


There should be (and likely will be) some other way of weeding out this type of freelancer, since he/she is clearly not prepared to be in business.


Christine A wrote:

 

It seems to me that Upwork SHOULD make it a TOS violation for freelancers to provide free work.

 


I don't agree with this for two reasons.

 

One is that the freelancers who most often get caught in this trap seem to be those at the lowest end--the least likely to have business smarts and experience and the most desperate. I dislike the idea of further crippling a person's ability to earn a living because he/she was near enough starvation to work for free in hopes that it would lead to a paying gig.

 

The other is that at the other end of the spectrum, it's pretty typical for a professional to do some up-front work as part of a pitch. For example, many marketing companies do an assessment of a company's website and/or current marketing efforts and provide general suggestions for improvement as part of the process of demonstrating what they can offer. I wouldn't want to hobble the ability of higher-end professionals to form that type of relationship, either. I have one Upwork marketing client who has thus far paid me just over $58,000. I didn't have to do an up front work in that case, but it certainly would have been worth investing a couple of hours to kick-start the relationship if that had seemed the right approach.

 

 

In a theoretical ideal world, no freelancer would be able to do any free work because every client would be ashamed to ask for such a thing, or even accept it if offered.

 

I realize that not all clients are ideal.

 

However, I HAVE HAD worked with quite a few clients who simply seemed flabbergasted at any hint of free work.

 

I have had worked with clients who posted jobs that I replied to or invited me to jobs, and then scheduled a time to talk. And then before they could ask any questions about their project they asked me to accept a contract offer purely for consultation time.

 

I have had clients who did not end up hiring me for a job, but asked me to accept a brief contract just so that they could pay me for advice I provided to them in a job proposal or interview.

 

I think most Upwork clients are great. I think the ones who try to get free work are in the minority.


Preston H wrote:

 

I think most Upwork clients are great. 


I think you think this because you're in a sort of experience bubble with your rates and skill level.

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