Ridiculously low pay offered

jorgensen-scott · ‎08-07-2019

First, I have had some successes with UpWork and generally find it a good service. Lately, though, I have noticed a disturbing trend in the pay offered for jobs in my field (media crration, illustration). It's been dropping through the floor, and I don't believe it's been driven by market forces. A job that traditionally commands fees in the hundreds of dollars is now likely to be offered at $5. No, not those trendy "I'm only offering $5 to get you lazy artists to propose a real offer" sort of things. But five dollars as in, that's what they will pay.

Seriously? Are we just another version of Fiverr now? As if our field isn't already being dumbed down and out of existence by such insults to working professionals. I'm seeing job offerings that require the moon and the stars from applicants, but offer next to nothing for compensation. I realize that business models like this radically favor employers, but can't we have some standards here, Upwork? Would it be out of the question to put a lower limit on offered compensation, possibly directed by field and even a ballpark of market value?

robin_hyman · ‎08-07-2019

Are you sure it isn't a placeholder so freelancers don't have to pay 6 connects to apply? The right price is one a freelancer will accept. If it is $5, then is it because freelancers in other countries are willing to do the work for this amount?

Either way, obviously these low paying jobs aren't right for you. Find the ones that are and submit your best application.

prestonhunter · ‎08-07-2019

Robin makes a great point.

I have earned thousands of dollars from fixed-price jobs posted with $5.00 budgets.

The client-side interface does NOT make it easy for clients jost want to get work done and don't really know what to put for a budget. $5.00 is often a default meaning "I don't know."

lascap_01 · ‎10-21-2020

I have been working on Upwork for a few years now and I never got a serious job out these ridiculous 5$ job offers. it's just not make sense, let's not talk about Upwork fees here... so PLEASE don't BS anyone here.

5$ budget should not be allowed here. let's be serious!!!

Pascal

petra_r · ‎10-21-2020

Pascal S wrote:
I have been working on Upwork for a few years now and I never got a serious job out these ridiculous 5$ job offers.

I have. And that's not the point.

The OP was talking about hourly rates so you're missing the point.

Pascal S wrote:
5$ budget should not be allowed here. let's be serious!!!

Who are you to decide what other freelancers may or may not consider? Again. Forbidding such contracts would be bad for freelancers.

ilannamandel · ‎10-21-2020

Who are we? We are the ones doing the work!

jenkfreelance · ‎01-12-2021

Exactly right Ilanna.

Who are we not to say something?

Just because a person is willing to let themselves be exploited and work for $5 it does not make it right.

Some freelancers agree to this because they are desperate and in poverty. Poverty and fear naturally causes a person to undervalue their work.

To allow any system that exploits peoples desperation is not only wrong for that individual, but for all freelancers on Upwork as a whole.

$5 should not be a genuine project budget except for the simplest of jobs.

Companies that can afford to should pay a fair price, and not a price based on what the most deperate freelancer is willing to accept in a 'race to the bottom' Fiverr style.

gina-herrera · ‎01-12-2021

Jenny K wrote:
$5 should not be a genuine project budget except for the simplest of jobs.
Companies that can afford to, should pay a fair price, and not a price based on what the most deperate freelancer is willing to accept in a 'race to the bottom' Fiverr style.

Okay, so if they are paying what you consider a "fair price," get ready - everyone will hire Americans / fluent English speakers only. Because for the price hey will be expecting a higher quality of work and those struggling freelancers overseas will never get a job again because no one wants to pay $25 an hour for someone who has less skillsets due to lack of proper education / less communication skills in English / etc. - their selling point is that they are cheap and you took that away from them. Not to mention a fair price varies from country to country based on cost of living, etc. I didn't think that that had to be said but it just proves you want the price to be fair to YOUR opinion.

Also, the clients WILL just go to Fiverr. What is so hard to grasp about this that if someone WANTS to pay only $5, by hook or by crook they will find someone to do it for that price? It just won't be on Upwork. So explain to me how that helps the lower-end freelancers from other countries. The amount of blind ignorance and selfishness here is astounding. There is NO SITUATION that will prevent people from hiring cheap labor so let those freelancers make their bread and butter instead of white knighting and acting like you can fix the situation through your completely misplaced concerns. To address this you'd literally have to solve poverty, Upwork is 1000% irrelevant in this battle and you all sound absolutely ridiculous and completely entitled to honestly think that an impoverished person will benefit from this. They will literally lose all work here, for good. If you're seriously comfortable with that, by all means, continue on your vendetta. Not that it will ever happen anyways.

Also every person complaining in here with the exception of one is located in Canada, Australia, America, UK.

I would like to hear ONE person, just one, from Asia who is working for these wages, weigh in. Truly. I will bet my entire life if they heard upwork was to set a minimum budget most of them would be terrified.

dan_shale · ‎01-12-2021

No it's not just a placeholder, it's a real, reoccurring problem that all freelancers face and that Upwork isn't doing nearly enough to stop. You asked 'is it because freelancers in other countries are willing to do the work for this amount?' which is a ridiculous question based on inequality and ignorance!!

I don't understand what you mean by 'it's not right for you' because who is it right for? You seem to be suggesting that there are people who SHOULD be accepting ridiculously low pay and that's just not right. All freelancers deserve the same standards. Aside from the legalities of paying someone below the minimum wage (which I know is complicated by the international-ness of Upwork), websites like Upwork have a moral duty to ensure proper, fair pay. It doesn't seem like it would take much effort to simply not allow people to post jobs that don't meet the minimum wage of whatever country/state Upwork operates in principally.

I see jobs offering $5 for multiple hours of work and I often also see 20-50 proposals on these jobs. This is unfortunate and speaks to the desperation of some Upworkers/freelancers. Upwork clients can take advantage of this desperation and are empowered by this website to do so. This should not be the case and I'm very upset that Upwork continues to allow this exploitation even over a year after this thread was started (and it's certainly not the only thread).

Anyone who agrees with me, please comment and let's try to change the way that Upwork operates together!

gina-herrera · ‎01-12-2021

Daniel S wrote:

I see jobs offering $5 for multiple hours of work and I often also see 20-50 proposals on these jobs. This is unfortunate and speaks to the desperation of some Upworkers/freelancers. Upwork clients can take advantage of this desperation and are empowered by this website to do so. This should not be the case and I'm very upset that Upwork continues to allow this exploitation even over a year after this thread was started (and it's certainly not the only thread).

If you want to discourage clients from posting a **Edited for community guidelines** budget, don't apply. The people who apply encourage it. But, usually that small budget works to my advantage - as Preston mentioned, a lot of times if someone puts up a post that requires an "expert" for $5, it is a placeholder because they haven't a clue what it's supposed to cost and they are looking for an expert to weigh in.

Another option is to attempt to be better at what you do... people will GLADLY pay good money for someone who speaks fluent English and has expert-level skills.

I find it super ironic that you're complaining because you're in the UK, which arguably probably is the 2nd most favored country on this platform due to their main language being English. Imagine how those not in the US or in the UK feel.

I genuinely feel that if someone is "desperate" on Upwork, it means they are failing somewhere; either their work is not up to par or their personal marketing skills and proposal methods aren't working. There is SO much advice in these forums, take advantage of it. You're probably not going to find a ton of sympathy here though.

prestonhunter · ‎01-12-2021

Working on Upwork is not a requirement in any known community or country.

There are civilizations that have existed for thousands of years, prior to the existence of Upwork.

So when I see posts by freelancers saying: "Upwork is the only way I can earn money"...

Well, I just don't think that is true.

Upwork does not have an "obligation" to make sure that all freelancers are paid "equally." That is a silly notion.

Everybody in the world has inherent worth and should be respected as a human being. But my labor may not be as in demand as the labor of some other people.

Moreover, it is important to understand that Upwork is a lifestyle choice. It is not about money. If somebody wants to make a lot of money, there are many ways they can do that. Where I live, people can make a lot of money simply by walking a few blocks and working at a fast food restaurant. Or a grocery store. No college degree required. No expertise required. Entry level jobs. They CAN get money, no problem. They CAN get more money doing that than they could trying to work on Upwork.

So why do people work on Upwork? For most of them, it is NOT primarily about the money. Most of them COULD make more money elsewhere. But they WANT to work on Upwork for reasons OTHER than the money. They want to do it for comraderie, for the opportunity to work in precisely the niche that they love, for the ability to stay home instead of commuting to a worksite, for the ability to be their own boss, set their own hours, etc. LOTS of reasons.

If a person loves writing blog articles about cats, and would be doing that for free on their own time, but they can get paid to do it on Upwork, then nobody should be criticizing that person for working for less money than they might make working as a corporate CEO or working away from home on an oil rig. Are they ultimately making "less than then minimum wage" of some arbitrary geographic location? Maybe. Maybe not. But that is not why they are doing it, and nobody should try to restrict their opportunity to work the way that they want to work, for the level fo pay that they want to get paid.

dan_shale · ‎01-12-2021

But like drastically undervaluing people’s time is just plain bad? It’s labour at the end of the day so underpaying is criminal! I’m sure that given how new sites like Upwork are, the legislation just hasn’t been done and that’s how they’re able to get away with this ATM.

Suggesting that I’m just complaining because I haven’t got enough work out of Upwork is silly. I’m just like exhausted by the horrible underpaying jobs on Upwork and think its a problem. And for everyone saying ‘you won’t get any sympathy here’ and similar, it’s a forum!!! It’s FOR conversation and I literally searched up the relevant thread so I feel like I’ve followed forum etiquette. Jesus. But yea my original point stands- underpaying ANYONE is ALWAYS wrong and I’m NOT talking about myself.

prestonhunter · ‎01-12-2021

re: "But like drastically undervaluing people’s time is just plain bad? It’s labour at the end of the day so underpaying is criminal!"

If somebody wants to work in order to earn money, then there are many ways they can do that.

Upwork is a lifestyle choice.

This is not necessarily about earning money.

There is nothing "criminal" going on here.

The minimum allowable hourly rate is $3 on Upwork.

That means that even for freelancers whose labor is not worth $3 per hour (and there are MANY of those!), Upwork clients must still pay at least $3/hour when using hourly contracts.

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-12-2021

Daniel S wrote:

Anyone who agrees with me, please comment and let's try to change the way that Upwork operates together!

Why don't you start raising standards by increasing your own rate? $20/hour minus the Upwork fees, converted to pounds, is less than UK minimum wage. How are others in the UK supposed to earn enough to live on, if they have to compete with people like you?

lysis10 · ‎01-12-2021

Imagine being in the UK complaining about cheap clients and having a $20/hour rate.

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-12-2021

Jennifer M wrote:
Imagine being in the UK complaining about cheap clients and having a $20/hour rate.

It seems that the definition of "too cheap" = "anything less than I charge". The other person who complained the most in this thread was charging $11/hour at the time.

moonraker · ‎01-12-2021

Christine A wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
Imagine being in the UK complaining about cheap clients and having a $20/hour rate.
It seems that the definition of "too cheap" = "anything less than I charge". The other person who complained the most in this thread was charging $11/hour at the time.

Could you imagine if these people got their wish and minimum rates were applied - above what they can charge themselves. I wonder what Upwork's 'moral obligation' would be then when they are the ones that get affected by it and not just other people.

feed_my_eyes · ‎01-12-2021

Jamie F wrote:
Could you imagine if these people got their wish and minimum rates were applied - above what they can charge themselves. I wonder what Upwork's 'moral obligation' would be then when they are the ones that get affected by it and not just other people.

Yeah, if Upwork took away the ability to compete on price, a lot of freelancers would sure be left out in the cold (literally, in some cases).

gina-herrera · ‎01-12-2021

Christine A wrote:
Jamie F wrote:
Could you imagine if these people got their wish and minimum rates were applied - above what they can charge themselves. I wonder what Upwork's 'moral obligation' would be then when they are the ones that get affected by it and not just other people.
Yeah, if Upwork took away the ability to compete on price, a lot of freelancers would sure be left out in the cold (literally, in some cases).

The sad fact of the matter is none of these freelancers that choose to dedicate time to negativity and whining instead of taking a look at their own failures in business management and caliber of their product offering give a flying f about anyone but themselves. They want the site to work for them, and them alone and then love to act like it's for the greater good; meanwhile, the people living in abject poverty in 3rd world countries trying to make a living or some extra money through the site get totally screwed. But who cares! YOU get $20 an hour!

dan_shale · ‎01-12-2021

What dyou mean exactly**Edited for community guidelines**

dan_shale · ‎01-12-2021

Thats simply not true? Roughly 25% upwork fee and 25% off that to convert to pounds brings $20 to £11.25 per hour which isn’t minimum wage?! It’s below the London living wage, sure, if that’s what you meant.

Honestly think all this hate is silly. There is no precedent for a website that deals with freelancers from around the world. So it’s not a black and white issue or set in stone, what it is is up for debate. And where better than these forums to do it?

petra_r · ‎01-12-2021

Daniel S wrote:
Roughly 25% upwork fee and 25% off that to convert to pounds brings $20 to £11.25 per hour which isn’t minimum wage?! It’s below the London living wage, sure, if that’s what you meant.

What you don't understand is the fact that $3.00 an hour goes a hell of a long way further in Bangladesh or similar than your $16.50 does in London. $3.00 is 15 times (!) the minimum wage there.

You are also missing the point that Upwork forcing up the minimum rate will take away people's ability to feed their families, just so some bleeding hearts on the other side of the world can feel better about themselves, even if it directly destroyed countless families' livelihoods.

When Upwork upped (!!) the minimum rate to $3 that is EXACTLY what happened. It wasn't clients who complained, it was the freelancers who lost their income. Clients simply went elsewhere.

So please don't pretend you're asking for higher minimums to protect those people in countries like that from exploitation. You are asking for this in the mistaken hope that it would protect yourself from lower cost competition...

dan_shale · ‎01-13-2021

Wow what an assumption at the end there. Like okay, I agree with you, I
don't wanna take away anyone's bread and butter and maybe I was misguided
in thinking that the clients would stay and simply raise their prices... I
wasn't aware that this had happened before. But FFS 'bleeding heart' what
is this the war on woke?

The reason I posted in the first place this is ACTUALLY because I got that
job offer - $1 per 1000 words - and thought 'holy **bleep** no one should have
to do this'. I think you'd agree. But I understand that that $1 might be
the difference between eating and going hungry so it's a useless argument.
I really just wanted to have a conversation though and did not expect this
level of antagonism. Clearly you are pissed off at more than just me and
what I have to say. I'm not trying to protect myself from lower cost
competition, I do perfectly well on Upwork and outside of it thank you, I
just really think that $1 per 1000 words is exploitation and abuse in any
context. It's frankly coming off as a bit racist/colonial/ignorant for you
and other commenters to continually bring up countries like Bangladesh and
suggest that they deserve to be paid 15x or 100x less than someone on the
other side of the world. No, I'm not trying to fix poverty but I'm trying
to at least strike up good discussions in the places i CAN reach like
Upwork which IS perpetuating this global divide.

moonraker · ‎01-13-2021

Daniel S wrote:

It's frankly coming off as a bit racist/colonial/ignorant for you
and other commenters to continually bring up countries like Bangladesh and
suggest that they deserve to be paid 15x or 100x less than someone on the
other side of the world.

Really?

Where to start?

For one thing, race has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's all down to economics and it seems to be you that is ignorant in that regard.

It's also nothing to do with what people 'deserve' based on their location, it is everything to do with people being able to charge according to what they are able to do. You will find people from countries like Bangladesh charging 'Western' rates because they have the skillsets to compete.

Daniel S wrote:
I'm not trying to protect myself from lower cost competition, I do perfectly well on Upwork

Really, mate?

You charge a rate that would not be enough for me to get by on and I don't even live in London. You've made $800 since June and have a 68% JSS.

I'm not judging you for any of that but I don't think you're going to get far in convincing people here that you're doing 'perfectly well' on Upwork.

dan_shale · ‎01-13-2021

How do you NOT sound racist haha. 'You will find people from countries like
Bangladesh charging 'Western rates' because they have the skillset' ... AKA
'Most people in Bangladesh are underskilled and simply not as good as
people in the West... some of them are so they deserve what we get but the
rest can perish and deal with a measly $1 for multiple hours of work'.

Also, when I say I've done perfectly well on Upwork, I've found multiple
clients that have gone onto hire me outside of Upwork thank you very much.
But your snideness about my JSS and advertised earnings is a bit pathetic
IMO. I'm obviously an idealistic 20-something, why not let me be? I
literally googled 'upwork underpay' out of curiosity, found this forum and
posted my opinion. It's been met with a lot of hyper-judgement and
antagonism and I'm exhausted with explaining myself. I think it's you who
need to check your privilege and your principles.

moonraker · ‎01-13-2021

Daniel S wrote:
How do you NOT sound racist haha. 'You will find people from countries like
Bangladesh charging 'Western rates' because they have the skillset' ... AKA

Some people in poor countries are not given the opportunity to have a good as an education as those in wealthy countries. Ergo, they don't have the skills to compete with those people who do.

And some people in those same countries will have the opportunity of such an education.

How on earth is it racist to recognize that? Are you just making it up as you go along?

Daniel S wrote:
I think it's you who need to check your privilege and your principles.

Really?

I am the one recognizing the privilege of having a decent education that helped give me the skills to compete. You are the one resistant to recognizing that other people don't have that privilege.

Daniel S wrote:

'Most people in Bangladesh are underskilled and simply not as good as
people in the West... some of them are so they deserve what we get but the
rest can perish and deal with a measly $1 for multiple hours of work'.

Do one, pal.

Nobody here has said such a thing and it speaks volumes when you have to resort to strawmen because you aren't getting your own way.

I've wasted enough time on you already. May you get your wish and minimum rates for people living in London are raised to $30/hour

dan_shale · ‎01-13-2021

Dude that's not my wish!!! When did I ever say that. If I personally had to
set a minimum rate, I would set it at the minimum wage in the UK, £8.21 per
hour or whatever it is. $30 would obviously exclude way too many people and
there would be no beginners on Upwork. My rate is $30 because I have good
experience and charge higher rates outside of Upwork. You seem to be
interested in exaggerating everything I'm saying and arguing based on your
assumptions. If anyone is strawmanning here, it's you honey. Also, great
#forumming thanks for the meaningful discussion man.

moonraker · ‎01-13-2021

Daniel S wrote:

Also, when I say I've done perfectly well on Upwork, I've found multiple clients that have gone onto hire me outside of Upwork thank you very much.

Oh, before I do go, I almost missed this.

This is a serious breach of the rules. Something that the moderators will likely be interested in so I'll just report it to get their attention.

Here's you with your morally superior act and you're cheating the system while the rest of us are paying what we owe.

Cheerio.

dan_shale · ‎01-13-2021

How am I trying to be morally superior!?!?!?!?!? I'm saying $1 for multiple
hours of work is BAD. If you don't agree with that, I bloomin' well am
superior LOL cos **Edited for Community Guidelines**. You're lovely for
attacking and trying to oust a 20-something wannabe writer who's just
trying to use a community forum to talk about fair pay on a freelancer
website. Cheerio.

petra_r · ‎01-13-2021

Daniel S wrote:
Also, when I say I've done perfectly well on Upwork, I've found multiple
clients that have gone onto hire me outside of Upwork thank you very much.

Oh have you now? As you can't take any client you found on Upwork outside the platform for a minimum of 2 years, you've just admitted to defrauding Upwork. Congratulations.

AleksandarD · ‎01-13-2021

Hi all,

Several posts have been removed from this thread for being in violation of the Community Guidelines. We encourage our Community members to be professional and respectful to one another when posting here. Please be mindful of the guidelines and avoid making personal attacks.

I went ahead and closed the thread for further replies. Thanks to all who participated in the conversation.

~ Aleksandar

tlsanders · ‎08-07-2019

Scott, that "disturbing trend" you've noticed lately has been quite common for at least the 2.5 years I've been on Upwork.

Having standards is great, but isn't it more appropriate for individual freelancers to set their own standards and proceed accordingly than have a faceless corporation determine a standard that will apply across tens or hundreds of thousands of freelancers with differing skill levels, talents, styles, costs of living, personal priorities (and about a bajillion other factors)?

ela-rucs · ‎10-21-2020

These kinds of jobs should not be allowed. The pay 3-5 USD is preposterous! You, the Upwork team, need to have a grid scheme of pay corresponding to the job requirements!

And apart from the ridiculous pay we need to pay 4-6 connects to apply? I spend a lot of money buying connects from you Upwork, as a Freelancer. Plus the 20%!

petra_r · ‎10-21-2020

Mihaela Roxy D wrote:
These kinds of jobs should not be allowed. The pay 3-5 USD is preposterous!

Nobody forces you to apply for contracts that pay less than you like, and you are always free to apply with a different rate.

In addition, this is a global platform. Your idea of "preposterous" is a lot of money in many countries. It's above minimum wage in your own, too.

ela-rucs · ‎10-21-2020

Pardon?! Above minimum wage in my own country? Revise, please. Salaries in my town are between 600USD per month and 3000USD per month.

jr-translation · ‎10-21-2020

Mihaela Roxy D wrote:
Pardon?! Above minimum wage in my own country? Revise, please. Salaries in my town are between 600USD per month and 3000USD per month.

The gross monthly minimum wage in Romania is 2230 RON ($539.24 today) which is ~$3.22/h.

dan_shale · ‎01-12-2021

But Upwork has a chance to set the standards for freelancers internationally. What if these clients would post their jobs for more but just aren't incentivised to do so because Upwork doesn't give a hoot about how much its freelancers are paid?

Also, though $3 per hour (and I've seen jobs posted for lower) may be legal in some countries, is it right? Is it okay at all? No!!!

lysis10 · ‎01-12-2021

I don't have this problem, but I'm a chad. 😎😎😎

AleksandarD · ‎10-21-2020

Hi Mihaela,

At Upwork, the terms of any contract, including the rate, are for clients and freelancers to decide upon together. Any freelancer who is not satisfied with the rate offered can negotiate a higher rate or find a project they consider to be more suitable.

Thank you.

~ Aleksandar

ela-rucs · ‎10-21-2020

Yes, but I spend a lot of money doing that while using the platform. I expect more rights for the freelancers. That is it.