Should I pay for a dispute?

[o_shkurlatiuk]

I want to ask Upwork for a dispute as client won't pay me for the milestone after me sending finished work.

I've found some information that I shoud pay for the dispute. Is it true?

[lysis10]

Dispute is free but if neither of you agree on what the dispute resolution team wants you to do, then it goes to arbitration and you pay $291.

[o_shkurlatiuk]

And if I agree, but the client don't?

[tlsanders]

What do you mean when you say the client won't pay? Has he requested a refund of escrow, or requested that you re-do the work, or just not responded to your submission?

[o_shkurlatiuk]

He asked me for changes. But these changes are 1/3 of the whole project.

I've written my story here before "Client is asking for changes"

[colettelewis]

It is better to stick to one thread with this sort of problem. How was the job set up - fixed-rate or hourly?

[o_shkurlatiuk]

it was a fixed-price project, but I was working a month and created 10 images.

I know I should ask to devide this job for more milestones, but the client had a good rates and I couldn't even think everthing will turn like this.

[colettelewis]

So was the first milestone funded?

[o_shkurlatiuk]

I have a fixed-price contract for 10 images to draw. I've made a free test and got a job. 

The first milestone was funded for all 10 images.

First I've made rough sketches for all 10 images. Client gave me comments for every of them.

I've started my work. Client ask me to send everything I have done after some time (some images where almost read, some I've just started). He told me that they look nice.

When everything was finished I've send all images in low resolution first (still good enough to understand if it is a good job) and ask client to look them through, telling I will send full-size images if everthing is ok. He asked me to work with backgrounds on some of them. I did it, send him one image for review. He said it looks better now.

After I submitted work and send all full-sized images, he was away for day or two and after that asked me for changes.

It is not about details. He wants me to totally redraw 3 images.

We were talking for a long time, I explained I can't redraw 1/3 of the work after all these revisions. It's not fair!

He just  telling me - I hope we can move forward and finish this project. He just want me to work more for free.

He said me that I can just end a contract.... I will not get payment than. But I can't also spend so much money for arbitration... So all I can do is just end this contract by myself?

[colettelewis]

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 [ . . .]

He said me that I can just end a contract.... I will not get payment than. But I can't also spend so much money for arbitration... So all I can do is just end this contract by myself?

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 Correct me if I am wrong. A funded milestone was set up for ten images which you sent to the client.

Did you press the release button for the payment of these ten images? If you did, the client has to pay, or dispute (it is not at this point, for you to dispute).

[tlsanders]

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@Nichola L wrote:

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 [ . . .]

He said me that I can just end a contract.... I will not get payment than. But I can't also spend so much money for arbitration... So all I can do is just end this contract by myself?

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 Correct me if I am wrong. A funded milestone was set up for ten images which you sent to the client.

Did you press the release button for the payment of these ten images? If you did, the client has to pay, or dispute (it is not at this point, for you to dispute).

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It sounds like this client has exercised the "request revisions" option. 

[o_shkurlatiuk]

I press button "submit work" and send him all the images.

After that he can approve work or ask for changes.

He asked me for changes. I can't agree with that, as I was following all his sugestions. He have seen all sketches and the same images in low resolution and everthing was fine. And only after receiving full-sized images he told me I should totally redraw 3 of them. He is sure I have to do that for the same price...

[colettelewis]

But did you also ask for the funds to be released when you submitted the work? A client has 14 days to request changes. If you feel you have fulfilled the terms of the  agreed contract, then politely tell your client that you have completed the  work for the price agreed, and that if they want more work from you, they must pay you for what you have already done, and then open a new contract.

What you have not told us, is if you have pressed the 'release funds' button. It is important, because you will get paid unless the client disputes. 

[lysis10]

If he is going out of scope or asking for endless revisions, then you gotta work it out with him. I've bent over backwards to get paid but I have put my foot down too. For me, it depends on what kind of money we're talking about.

It's really up to you if you think it's worth it. The dispute/arbitration stuff is stressful. I would only do it if you are sure you will win and this isn't the first revision request. It's also only worth it if the money is enough where spending $300 still banks you a few hundies.

[petra_r]

Try and resolve amicably first. If it can not be solved amicably you can dispute.

if that does not work it can go to arbitration, and that does cost 291 to you, 291 to the client and 291 to Upwork.

if you pay the 291 and the client does not, you win the dispute no DO get the $ 291 back.

If the client also pays the $ 291 arbitration decides.

Even if you win arbitration you do NOT get the $ 291 back.

[o_shkurlatiuk]

Thank you, Petra!

Client is sure that it is my job to do any changes, I am sure that I shouldn't start my work from the begining after sucsessful reviews...

I was sure that Upwork protect me from unfair client. 

But it seems that I can do nothing, 'cause anyway I've lost money, time and get lower JS and I can't turn it back.

The client has my images, will receive his money back, will not get any bad feedback, so he can manipulate other freelances...

So sorry about that. 

Can you advise me what to do now? 

I'm on the way to become a top-rated and have a 100& JS. If I'll just end the contract it will effect my job score?

[petra_r]

Under NO circumstances end the contract. If you are sure the client APPROVED the images keep pressing on.

Disputing will not cost you anything, it is ONLY if it goes to arbitration.

At the VERY least you should be paid for the 7 the client accepted. If your account is completely accurate the client Will NOT pay for arbitration als they would know their bluff has been called ... You would win the whole thing, get the funds in escrow in full AND your arbitration fee back.

Upwork CAN not protect you as Escrow is tightly legally regulated and can ONLY be resolved in a binding manner by independent 3rd party arbitration.

[petra_r]

I think the client is trying it on.... He may even have done it before.

i would seriously consider calling his bluff if you believe to be in the right.

[o_shkurlatiuk]

If the payment will cover 291$ for dispute I will start it, but its not.

I'm totally confused and upset, and I just can't spend more money for this awful client...

[tlsanders]

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@Olga S wrote:

If the payment will cover 291$ for dispute I will start it, but its not.

I'm totally confused and upset, and I just can't spend more money for this awful client...

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Just a suggestion--see what you think about this. (And what others have to say)

Calculate 70% of the agreed price.

Resubmit for payment, this time changing the amount requested to the 70% figure.

Write in the message box that since the client is satisfied with only 7 of the 10 pieces and you cannot come to a resolution, you are requesting payment only for those 7, and you will retain ownership of the rejected 3.

Then, the ball will be back in his court. He'll have to either pay or request a refund of escrow, at which point you could dispute the refund request.

[o_shkurlatiuk]

It's a good idea, I was thinking about to ask him to pay for 7 images, but was not sure he will agree with it.

I know nothing about refund or escrow. Can he just ask me for some changes again after I will resubmit my work?

And how about "dispute the refund payment" ? is it free?

[petra_r]

Dispute is free but CAN NOT make a binding decision for legal reasons. If dispute fails to resolve it it HAS to go to arbitration, and whoever does not pay the arbitration fee loses by default.

how many revisions did you specify in the contract to be included? Because if you did NOT you are on somewhat thin ice. 

[colettelewis]

If this was a fixed-price contract with the milestone funded, and the OP sent the work and asked for the funds to be released, then  it is for the client to dispute not the freelancer. Unless the client disputes,  the freelancer will get paid on a job that has been funded.

[petra_r]

No Nicola the client can just play the "request changes" game until the freelancer contacts Support to initiate a dispute. 

The "request changes" button does NOT initiate a dispute!!

So essentially the freelancer can keep submitting and requesting payment and the client can keep requesting changes until someone contacts Support to start a dispute.

[o_shkurlatiuk]

It is crazy!!!

But I think I will try it anyway, maybe he will be so kind to pay me for the part of work.

Thank's everyone for answers and help!

[colettelewis]

Sorry, Petra, I didn't know this was possible on a fixed-rate job - and that is scary!

[o_shkurlatiuk]

So, the client won't pay me for 7 images, 'cause he need 10 images, not 7)

He asked me for changes again and still hope I will do 3 more images for him.

I think it can lasts forever even if I will agree to redraw them. He may want more and more redrawings after that...

Great system...

Nothing else to say

So, be careful even if the client seems to be nice and have a good rates, make a lot of revisions and like your work.

One day it may suddenly change and your time, money and reputation is lost.

[petra_r]

In fairness I have never even ONCE had a client request any changes, ever, since I have been on this platform.

Do *NOT* just end the contract.

Either do the 3 drawings and make sure you do, in future, stipulate right from the beginning how many revisions are included in the price, or tell the client that as he approved the work from the low res images you will have no choice but take this to dispute.

I still think that this could and should be able to be resolved amicably with good will.....

[o_shkurlatiuk]

I was never asked to do any changes before too, even if the client haven't seen any sketches or phases of work...

This client was commenting my sketches, unfinished works, finished works and I always did everthing he was asking.

That is why I just can't understand what is happening... I asked him why he didn't tell I need to redraw these images after I've sent finished images in low resolution, but only after me sending original files... He didn't answer, he is sure I have to redraw as many as he want, or he just won't pay...

We had no any discussions about ammount of revisions ( I never had them so I never even though about that), but I think it wouldn't help anyway. 

'Cause he said images looks nice, and than he is saying I need to redraw them. I'm sure he knows he is not right...

But I can't get my payment and he knows aboout that. That is why he just want me to do what he want and can manipulating forever.

I'm sure I am right and I can win the dispute, but I'm not sure he will agree with the decision...

But I won't spend more money for arbitration and this awful client. It didn't worth it. 

[qqsolutions]

You should wait for 15 days after requesting the release of amount in Escrow. After 15 days amount will be released to you if client is not opening dispute..

[o_shkurlatiuk]

Muhammad Saif U, please tell what is it? Is it possible to do for a fixed-price job and if so what should I do?

Because I can onl submit work, but my client will always ask for changes...

[vladag]

Hi Olga,

Please refer to the extensive information Petra posted about the Dispute process. Please check this Help article and feel free to check in with our Support team, but Petra did explain all the options and best practice when it comes to disagreements like the one you have with your client.

[o_shkurlatiuk]

Thank you for the information, Vladimir!

I've found this article yesterday and  I thought that I can get my payment this way, but as Arbitration costs 290$ I will loose even more money this way... So it's not a choice for me...

[petra_r]

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@Olga S wrote:
 

I've found this article yesterday and  I thought that I can get my payment this way, but as Arbitration costs 290$ I will loose even more money this way... So it's not a choice for me...

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 Are you actually READING what is being written?

You do not HAVE to go all the way to arbitration. You can contact support and try dispute first.

Or you can simply give up and let the client get away with it. This is YOUR choice. YOU go ahead and take it, either way, but don't complain about the consequences of your own choices.

[o_shkurlatiuk]

I am reading everthing and I am very thankful everyone for answers, support and help.

I will try to do everything I can!

I just don't believe it will help... But I will surely try, there is nothing more to loose