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syawedis
Community Member

Should the power for clients to ruin a portfolio be nerfed?

I recently had a bad experience that has left a bad taste in my mouth, and made me think the rating system might need some reform.


I worked on a project for a client (who actually hired me because I told her she was going to be extremely difficult and picky and I welcomed the challenge - she liked my assertiveness she said) and everything started off really well.

 

We went through 7 milestones, and she was super happy, saying how I'm her #1 guy and she wants to hire me full time.  Then on the 8th and final milestone, she was under immense pressure after one of her presentations didnt go the way she wanted, and she had taken on a high-pressure (and demanding) course which left her with very little time to focus on this project.

 

The milestone started off rocky, with her instructions missing lots of the basic information I usually need, but I powered on because she was in a hurry. Her feedback was no better, feeling rushed, contradictory and lacking detail. Time was being wasted on both sides and I was getting frustrated going in circles without clear direction. At one point I just sent her a small list of links asking her for quick feedback of which one she likes best so that it could help clarify the confusion - and she practically lost it on me telling me she didnt have time (3 minutes) to quickly review the links. I guess you could say I 'virtually spanked' her at that point, telling her she needs to get it together and be more specific with her feedback becacuse I can't read her mind, or we just can't continue working together. I said it a little nicer than that, but was firm. 

 

The next day we laughed it off as our 'first fight' and she came back with proper instructions and feedback, and I powered on. I presented a couple suggestions on color variations for the logo, as well as the original, which she did not take too well. But other color or background suggestions were greeted with open arms. It was kind of like walking on egg shells, not knowing what would trigger her.  Soon there after the project was complete! 


A couple days later I asked her for her feedback on how the project went. She made a huge deal about me giving her color options. Color options of a logo I had created just a couple days prior, after taking over the job because she fired the previous freelancer doing it. I was also blamed for some things that were not even my fault and not even my job, it had to do with the coding guy not doing his job, I was only doing the design work. So I shared some my frustrations too. I probably could have / should have accepted her feedback without correcting her or reminding her of my own frustrations.

 

A few days of silence, and I notice the website was finally up, but broken looking, like a first time coder had done it. The logo I wasn't able to touch was now stretched 150% in height. So I asked her what happened, and she immediately closed the contract and left me a 4.3 star review with no feedback, and single handedly dropped my job completion rate from 100% to 85%.

 

So question / conclusion is this:
How is it at all fair that a client can have a great experience with several milestones, essentially re-hiring you 8 times, but at the end they throw a tantrum and give you a bad rating because they were in a pissy mood that day.  You would think upwork would/should account for the fact that he/she re-hired you 8 times before considering  their (likely) 'would not recommend this freelancer' rating in full weight. I think it's really dangerous and unfortunate to give clients the power to single handedly taint your profile like this. 

A simple solution to this
might just be having clients give public/private feedback on every milestone, which is then accumulated into one 'final' public and private feedback score. Maybe the same could be done with weekly billings, too. 

Edit feel free to comment on the problem or solution and try not to get too caught up in your personal feelings about how the situation could have been handled. I know I have things I can improve on. 

45 REPLIES 45
moonraker
Community Member

So you knew she was going to be difficult but still agreed to work with her? And now you're complaining that you have a ding in your JSS?

Put it down to experience and don't worry about the JSS. 88% is really not a big deal and will make little difference. 

If you read it you'd see I'm complaining that upwork allows for unfair feedback, or does not weigh it properly. But thanks for your contribution.

feed_my_eyes
Community Member


Nathan A wrote:

...I guess you could say I 'virtually spanked' her at that point, telling her she needs to get it together and be more specific with her feedback becacuse I can't read her mind, or we just can't continue working together... 

 

....and I shared some my frustrations too. 

 

I probably could have / should have accepted her feedback without correcting her or reminding her of my own frustrations...


It sounds like you were extremely rude and unprofessional with this client. I think that you were lucky to escape with a 4.3 rating. 

 

Not gonna say I didn't expect answers like this. You might not agree, but we are not clients punching bags.

 

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Nathan,

 

I assume most serious freelancers try to avoid working with difficult clients, not least because they are unpleasant and are, all things being equal, probably more likely than nice clients to leave less-than-stellar feedback when a project is over.

 

You purposely chose to work with such a client and to antagonize her.

 

Now you see that it is a dangerous strategy for long-term success on Upwork.

 

Keeping a high JSS is hard enough when you choose your clients carefully. Play with fire here and you will get burned,

 

Your experience has nothing to do with any weakness in the JSS system. It is a flawed system, but even if it were perfect it couldn't have saved your JSS from being dinged by such poor decisions as you have made.

Will, you say that meanwhile you remove bad feedback from your profile. 

 

While I agree with most of what you said, if the JSS was not as flawed as it is, it wouldnt have affected my JSS so much.

Upwork logic:
Client hires someone 8 times, which shows that very client would recommend hiring that freelancer, and does so themselves, but client throws a tantrum and leaves poor feedback. Upwork doesn't account for previous success on milestones and considers it in its full weight. 

 

It's kind of like ordering 7 plates of food and loving them so much you order one more, but oh gosh it burned my tongue, so you rate all 8 plates on that one single plate. Seems a little broken.




Nathan A wrote:

 

It's kind of like ordering 7 plates of food and loving them so much you order one more, but oh gosh it burned my tongue, so you rate all 8 plates on that one single plate. Seems a little broken.


I mean, it sounds to me like if she rated all 8 plates on that single plate the way you seem to claim she did, you'd have a hot 1.7 stars, but okay

If someone in a restaurant orders 7 plates and loves them enough to order an 8th, just how 'seriously' would you take the 'nO i DoNt ReCoMmEnD tHiS rEsTaUrAnT' review. That is my point. The "weight" given to the reviews should be evaluated if several previous successful milestones or projects were completed. 

 

 

gina-herrera
Community Member


Nathan A wrote:

I guess you could say I 'virtually spanked' her at that point, telling her she needs to get it together and be more specific with her feedback becacuse I can't read her mind, or we just can't continue working together. 


How is it at all fair that a client can have a great experience with several milestones, essentially re-hiring you 8 times, but at the end they throw a tantrum and give you a bad rating because they were in a pissy mood that day.  You would think upwork would/should account for the fact that she re-hired you 8 times before considering  her (likely) 'would not recommend this freelancer' rating in full weight.


Part 1: You do not know how to speak to clients. And I've been in some difficult situations, believe you me.

Part 2: Upwork is not responsible for monitoring feedback because you own and manage your own business. And it IS very possible someone can rehire someone 7 times and then have such a poor experience that they feel that it is necessary to be honest about their final impression.

You're lucky you escaped with the number that you did, that's essentially a "B" rating. Learn from your mistakes and move on.

 

Also you definitely are getting way too personal with your client when they are telling you the nitty gritty details of their personal life, their mood, etc. - "first fight"? Really? that implies a really unprofessional and extremely childish dynamic and you allowed that to happen.

Part 1: For the most part, I do, and I usually bite my tongue (usually I don't even have to). But in this instance I think my frustrations reached a tipping point because of the level of unprofessionalism and ongoing frustrations. I mean, I did get myself into the situation, taking on a client I knew would be literally the worst client ever, so lesson learned there too. 

 

Part 2: I saved her presentation because I came through in the end, on time, so that's probably why I got the 'B' rating and not an C or D rating, even tho the milstones before that I was an A+++ in her eyes and wanted to keep me all to herself, full time. Great way to show her appreciation.

 

Part 3: Maybe I'm just a personable guy. I talk to people like real people. I don't say "hey dude" or "hey girl", I keep it professional, but I can't help being the friendly neighbourhood designer that people feel comfortable enough to say we had our "first fight", or what kind of day their having. I would hardly say that's even a bad thing, or a childish dynamic.

 

Thanks for your reply tho, I know I have lots of learning to do.

 


Nathan A wrote:

Part 1: For the most part, I do, and I usually bite my tongue (usually I don't even have to). But in this instance I think my frustrations reached a tipping point because of the level of unprofessionalism and ongoing frustrations. I mean, I did get myself into the situation, taking on a client I knew would be literally the worst client ever, so lesson learned there too. 

 

Thanks for your reply tho, I know I have lots of learning to do.

 


You might be the first person here ever to accept constructive criticism instead of doubling down on your mistakes lol, I can respect that.

 

I definitely understand being personable, but you should also set a bit more boundaries somewhere in between I think.

Overall you should be grateful she ended the contract and you escaped just for your sanity's sake, it was not worth it to continue with her.



You might be the first person here ever to accept constructive criticism instead of doubling down on your mistakes lol, I can respect that.

Overall you should be grateful she ended the contract and you escaped just for your sanity's sake, it was not worth it to continue with her.


Yeah live and learn. 

This was really meant to be a discussion about balancing the JSS system though, in particular when there's previous milestones or previous hires. Something heavily unbalanced there. 

elitegra
Community Member

Hey Nathan, chill out. Once I got a similar rating and I got frustrated as well, but then I learned it isn`t really that bad. 

 

You are doing great here, your work looks really nice. But if I were you, I wouldn't bother responding to a client's bad rating, or at least keep it short and professional. 

 

I am very picky when accepting a new client job and anyway one gets a bad client from time to time.

 

Move on and learn from this experience, you will get your rating back to normal. 

Thanks for your response Wilson. 


There can still be something done to protect the integrity of JSS

 

Nathan,

 

I sympathise with you, but hopefully it won't affect your time on Upwork too much as you also have some very glowing reviews.

 

I agree with the other posters that it is better to avoid working with difficult clients, although I also understand the temptation when you only have a few jobs under your belt on Upwork.

 

Finding a way to balance friendliness with boundaries is key, as from what you have written it seems like there was a bit of an unhealthy dynamic going on.

 

If a client is being outright uncooperative, or taking a bad day/week/life out on freelancers, I don"t believe that is something that any freelancer shold have to tolerate.

 

The freelancer is getting paid to do the hired work, not to manage the clients emotions. And rarely can you make a person like this happy anyway if there is something else in their life that is affecting them.

 

So it is better to pick up on the signs (where possible) and filter that client out, rather than look at them as a welcome challenge and take that risk.

 

 

 

 


Nathan wrote:

... I told her she was going to be extremely difficult and picky and I welcomed the challenge...

 


You got exactly what you asked for. 

So you "welcomed the challenge" but don't want to deal with the almost inevitable consequences?

syawedis
Community Member

Petra, you might have missed the part where I said there were 7 successful milestones up until the final one. She might have been the most difficult client ever, but she was sure happy up until that point, wasn't she. That might say a lot more about me than your seemingly condescending remarks that don't even address the point I've made over and over.

I encourage you to try again though. 

 

(hint: JSS)

petra_r
Community Member


Nathan A wrote:

You might have missed the part...


No, I didn't miss that part. Nor did I miss your response to the other 4.3 star feedback you got just before this job. You urgently need to tweak your attitude or you will not succeed here.

 


Nathan A wrote:

... but she was sure happy up until that point,


She was happy until she wasn't. She shared some frustration, you decided to be rude and unprofessional.

 

She was no longer happy. Does that maybe tell you something?

 


Nathan A wrote:

(hint: JSS)


Hint: Your actions have consequences. You mismanage clients and contracts, your JSS will reflect that. Frankly your responses to feedback will serve as a warning to other clients and do more harm to your chances of being hired than the 2 x 4.3 stars. (To clients they may say "More hassle than he's worth")

 


Client hires someone 8 times, which shows that very client would recommend hiring that freelancer

The client didn't hire you 8 times. The client hired you once.

 


Nathan A wrote:

It's kind of like ordering 7 plates of food and loving them so much you order one more,


No. It's like eating an 8 course meal and the food is great, but then the restaurant owner comes out and starts being a **beep**. On the way out, I am asked if I'd eat there again...  I would not go back to that restaurant either, no matter how good the food may have been.

 

syawedis
Community Member

Your second attempt was much better thank you

syawedis
Community Member

Petra R,

 

I like your edits, 3rd attempt is even better. 

 

Still missing the point, however. 

 

Let me fix this for you though:


It's like eating an 8 course meal and the food is great, but the client at the end complains about how the marinara sauce was 2 degrees off their desired temperature (unreasonable), and blaming you for the weather (unreasonable), so then the restaurant owner comes out and starts being an **beep** on the way out.  I am asked if I'd eat there again...  Most people would still say yes, but I would not go back to that restaurant either, no matter how good the food may have been.

 

Like it or not, I can't see any chance of Upwork making the kind of change to JSS that you're suggesting. 

 

A lot of of people when they join Upwork (including me) spend time thinking about how the JSS system could be improved.  Eventually we adapt to the system rather than hoping to change it.

 

One effect of the system is that it encourages experienced freelancers to choose their clients carefully and avoid difficult clients. That may make it harder for difficult-looking clients to get their job done well. Perhaps by natural selection that will reduce the proportion of difficult clients on the platform. 😉

 

The JSS system also favours established freelancers over newcomers.  So it's best to play safe until you're established. 


Richard W wrote:

Perhaps by natural selection that will reduce the proportion of difficult clients on the platform. 😉

 

The JSS system also favours established freelancers over newcomers.  


It also favours freelancers with good soft skills, who avoid beeping their clients off needlessly. That also contributes to natural selection... 

syawedis
Community Member



It also favours freelancers with good soft skills, who avoid beeping their clients off needlessly. That also contributes to natural selection... 


I can appreciate your committment to being toxic and trying to throw jabs. But I'll see you at the top soon enough 😉

 

 


One effect of the system is that it encourages experienced freelancers to choose their clients carefully and avoid difficult clients. 

 

The JSS system also favours established freelancers over newcomers. 


Sure, but new comers don't have the same luxury to choose their clients wisely. New comers also have a harder time landing jobs because they have few or no feedback. All the more reason to have a more balanced JSS system.

Like it or not, I can't see any chance of Upwork making the kind of change to JSS that you're suggesting. 


For what reason do you say this? Would there be any drawbacks to the JSS improvement I suggested?

Just to be clear my suggestions are for projects where you have completed multiple milestones or multiple billing weeks before the contract is closed out. 


Nathan A wrote:

For what reason do you say this? Would there be any drawbacks to the JSS improvement I suggested?


Perhaps the main drawback would be that it's not an improvement at all...




Perhaps the main drawback would be that it's not an improvement at all...


Having a more balanced and accurate JSS system for freelancers would not be an improvement at all? Interesting. I will have to humbly disagree 🙂


Nathan A wrote:




Having a more balanced and accurate JSS system for freelancers would not be an improvement at all? Interesting. I will have to humbly disagree 🙂


I mean, the other thing to consider is that none of us actually KNOWS how JSS truly works, Upwork keeps that algorithm to themselves so that people can't manipulate it.

At the end of the day, Upwork's algorithm which takes into consideration the final value of the contract (for example, $5 vs. $5,000) to weight it, is highly beneficial as compared to say, Yelp, where if someone orders a $10 meal they can leave 1 star and murder their score.

 

It already is much more fair than it would be if it was simply a regular rating scale.

I mean sure, you're not wrong. I'm not saying everything about their system is flawed. 

 

Nothing wrong with improving it further, though. 


Nathan A wrote:

Nothing wrong with improving it further, though. 


I am not just talking about you, but everyone who complains about JSS, connects, minimum budget requirements, etc. is looking to improve the system in a way in which benefits them without considering the potentially negative effect it could have on others.

I am far from being Upwork's biggest fan, despite the fact that I do very well on here, yet at the same time through observing the Community for quite some time I have realized that 90% of the time it is just better to go with the flow and work on the one thing which I CAN control: my rates, the quality of my work, the way in which I market myself, and my reactions to bad situations.



I am not just talking about you, but everyone who complains about JSS, connects, minimum budget requirements, etc. is looking to improve the system in a way in which benefits them without considering the potentially negative effect it could have on others.



I can appreciate your sincerity. 

I've been a client myself on upwork, many times, and I'm the last person you'll see being selfish, so I do consider the grander scale. 

 

I'd love to have a conversation about the drawbacks of my suggestions, that was the entire point after all.


Nathan A wrote:



Perhaps the main drawback would be that it's not an improvement at all...


Having a more balanced and accurate JSS system for freelancers would not be an improvement at all? Interesting. I will have to humbly disagree 🙂


25% of your feedbacks so far have resulted in clients who are not completely satisfied. I'd say it's doing just what it should be doing 😉 

And you can't blame Upwork for you taking a risk with a difficult client. That's on you. The rating system is there to help clients and freelancers get a better idea of what it will likely be like to work with each other - and you chose to ignore it. 

25% of your feedbacks so far have resulted in clients who are not completely satisfied. I'd say it's doing just what it should be doing 😉 

"Our mandate was extremely rush and Nathan have been very comprehensive and flexible with us. He went over and above the tasks that we ask for and did make it happen! Nathan is a creative mind that want to understand every aspects of your business and projects so that he can think forward and come up with a complete solution. This is great if you need someone to drive your project from design to completion."

Ah yes, so unsatisfied. This 5 star rating/feedback is from the same guy who gave me a 4.3 rating and then tried to re-hire me a 3rd time. Sometimes clients fail at their tasks outside of the upwork environment and want to take it out on someone else. That is unavoidable. 

Upwork would likely have a much bigger stain on their hands if I did not handle these clients and their projects, I can tell you that with certainty. No matter how difficult the client I will still go the extra mile and do the very best for them. 


Nathan A wrote:

One effect of the system is that it encourages experienced freelancers to choose their clients carefully and avoid difficult clients. 

 

The JSS system also favours established freelancers over newcomers. 


Sure, but new comers don't have the same luxury to choose their clients wisely. New comers also have a harder time landing jobs because they have few or no feedback. All the more reason to have a more balanced JSS system.

Like it or not, I can't see any chance of Upwork making the kind of change to JSS that you're suggesting. 


For what reason do you say this? Would there be any drawbacks to the JSS improvement I suggested?

Just to be clear my suggestions are for projects where you have completed multiple milestones or multiple billing weeks before the contract is closed out. 


You could have started a new contract after each milestone and clients have the option to leave a feedback during ongoing contracts. That is something for you to manage.

And I chose my clients wisely when I started. That has nothing to do with luxury  but responsibility.



You could have started a new contract after each milestone and clients have the option to leave a feedback during ongoing contracts. That is something for you to manage.

And I chose my clients wisely when I started. That has nothing to do with luxury  but responsibility.


Not having the same luxury is not the same as choosing irresponsibly, for clarification.

 

You could have started a new contract after each milestone and clients have the option to leave a feedback during ongoing contracts. That is something for you to manage.

Not a luxury afforded to new comers either...if you tried this you wouldn't make it very far. Even established freelancers would probably find it hard to implement something so out of the norm of what other freelancers do... But I think you know this already


Nathan A wrote:


You could have started a new contract after each milestone and clients have the option to leave a feedback during ongoing contracts. That is something for you to manage.

And I chose my clients wisely when I started. That has nothing to do with luxury  but responsibility.


Not having the same luxury is not the same as choosing irresponsibly, for clarification.


What I was trying to say was that as newcomer you might not have the luxury to choose from as many clients as established freelancers, but you still have the responsibility to choose them yourself. If you feel your choice was irresposible, I am not going to challange that assumption.


Nathan A wrote:


You could have started a new contract after each milestone and clients have the option to leave a feedback during ongoing contracts. That is something for you to manage.

Not a luxury afforded to new comers either...if you tried this you wouldn't make it very far. Even established freelancers would probably find it hard to implement something so out of the norm of what other freelancers do... But I think you know this already


There are a lot of clients that do not mind to create a new contract instead of new milestones. That is something you can also discuss with your clients and for some clients even their M.O..

I do not care what other freelancers do, but about my relationship with the client. Every client and every job is different that is the only norm you need to keep in mind.

I agree with the other posters that it is better to avoid working with difficult clients, although I also understand the temptation when you only have a few jobs under your belt on Upwork.


Yeah I agree too, but you pretty much hit it on the head though; it's hard when you are new to the platform, looking for work, and see a fun challenge.

 

Cancelling a contract mid-way through because the client is unreasonable probably wouldn't have faired any better either, probably much worst. So at least I stuck it out until the end and got what I got. 

I just wasn't ready for the review that dropped my JSS rate from 100 to 85% in one swoop, just because the contract happened to be a decent chunk of the earnings, and just because they were moody, even tho 7 milestones were so well done she hired me for an 8th. Doesn't seem right to me. 

Live and learn tho. 

 

 

tlbp
Community Member


Nathan A wrote:

I agree with the other posters that it is better to avoid working with difficult clients, although I also understand the temptation when you only have a few jobs under your belt on Upwork.


Yeah I agree too, but you pretty much hit it on the head though; it's hard when you are new to the platform, looking for work, and see a fun challenge.

 

Cancelling a contract mid-way through because the client is unreasonable probably wouldn't have faired any better either, probably much worst. So at least I stuck it out until the end and got what I got. 

I just wasn't ready for the review that dropped my JSS rate from 100 to 85% in one swoop, just because the contract happened to be a decent chunk of the earnings, and just because they were moody, even tho 7 milestones were so well done she hired me for an 8th. Doesn't seem right to me. 

Live and learn tho. 

 

 


So the other 4. something review didn't drop your JSS?

syawedis
Community Member


So the other 4. something review didn't drop your JSS?


Not gonna lie I was a little triggered from his 4.3 review because I came through big for him on a rush job (stayed up from 11pm to 7am to help him meet a deadline). But he was difficult and that's just how some people are.

 

But no, it didn't lower my JSS because he didnt end the contract when he was moody or try to sabotage my profile. He likely left honest feedback in the secret portion (that he would hire me again and would use upwork again).

 

You may have noticed that was the second job I did for him. He actually sent me another (3rd) invite after that job, which I declined. 

When I've hired freelancers in the past and had multiple milestones I would weigh the entire job before leaving feedback. I also understand that this is their lifeline, so I'm a little more gentle. 

 

Some people can't help being crappy people, though. Implementing an improved JSS system that collects feedback throughout various milestones or weekly billing could avoid an unfair human element and calculate things more evenly. 

This would also be nice for freelancers who 'do' end up in a situation with a terrible client. Maybe they are not as wise as me in the beginning and cannot tell the client will be a nightmare, and instead of being 'trapped' they could cancel a contract with confidence knowing the entire rating might not be based on the final interaction. 

 

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