Slow client and payment

[glen-s]

I've been using Upwork for some time now and have finally run into a problem client.

They are an agency who provided me with a brief for 22,000 words, which I managed to turn around in 2 weeks. It was tough, but doable.

The project is valued at over $1,000, so a considerable amount, and I submitted on time - although stupidly I didn't authorise it through Upwork's system. The client seemed happy enough as I was drip feeding it across on a daily basis.

A few days later they told me their client didn't like it - but despite talking to their client they couldn't provide any information abut what the issues were, which I found very strange.

A week later I submitted the work through the system to kick start the 14 day countdown. Today, almost 2 weeks later (and 3 weeks after submitting the work) they requested changes to the milestone.

They said their client didn't like the length or tone (both of which were dictated by the brief). I asked how much work was required - they told me they still do not know. Again, very strange.

This means they have spoken to the client at least twice since I submitted the work and they still have no idea what their client wants. Both in terms of length and style. They told me they are going to keep revising one of the pages until the client is happy. Then I am to match the style and length based on that one page. This is an extremely odd way of working and doesn't add up.

The 14 day period ends this coming Monday, so if the client still doesn't provide the changes by then, can I then claim my money? Otherwise it means a client can just ask for changes and then take as long as they want to tell me what they actually are. I have met all the terms of the contract and for the client behave in this way seems incredibly unfair.

[cmdcodemaster]

Yes you can get your money if it is protected by escrow payment. If you submitted it and request for payment. Doesypur client have payment verified?

[glen-s]

Thanks for the reply John.

Yes, the client is payment verified. However, if they have requested changes but have not actually supplied them, how do I claim the money if it is not provided by the end of the 14 day period? I would assume the system will now not automatically release the funds.

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Glen,

When you submit your work on your milestone the client has 14 days to request for revisions or release the payment. After 14 days the funds will be transferred to your account if no actions are taken on the milestone. Keep in mind that if you resubmit the work again you will reset the 14 days period. To learn more details about fixed price protection, check out this Help Article. Thank you.

[glen-s]

Thanks Goran.

My question was, what if the client doesn't actually provide the changes within the 14 day period? Currently the client has requested changes but not provided them. If they take weeks to send the changes over, does this mean I just have to simply wait?

Or, if the changes are not sent over within the initial 14 day period, will I still recieve my money? Or is the client simply allowed to ask for changes without actually providing them straight away?

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Glen,

Unfortunately since I don't know the details of your contract I can't advise you accordingly. But if you`re asked for work outside of what you have initially agreed I would suggest negotiating with your client about the revisions. 

After you submit your work on the milestone created on your account the client has 14 days to take actions. If no actions are taken on the milestone, after 14 days the funds will be released to you. Thank you.

[glen-s]

Thanks Goran.

It's not a question about the specifics of my contract, it's a general question related to how Upwork work.

I understand how the 14 day process works once I have submitted my work, however, from a client's point of view, can they request changes through the system, and take however long they want to provide them without any time limit - or once they have have requested changes is there then a further 14 days to wait?

[petra_r]

The 14 day timer stops when the client requests changes.

To start the timer again you have to resubmit.

If the client keeps doing this, you may have to initiate a dispute if it can't be resolved.

[glen-s]

Thanks Petra. That gives me a bit more clarity.

However, currently the client has not provided the actual changes. They have requested changes through the system and told me they are coming. Are they then allowed to take weeks on end before supplying this? Or is waiting a week a reasonable length of time before I raise dispute, given it has taken this long just to get to this point.

[martina_plaschka]

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Glen S wrote:

Thanks Petra. That gives me a bit more clarity.

However, currently the client has not provided the actual changes. They have requested changes through the system and told me they are coming. Are they then allowed to take weeks on end before supplying this? Or is waiting a week a reasonable length of time before I raise dispute, given it has taken this long just to get to this point.

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There are no provisions about details such as this in the ToS, nor will upwork advise you on matters that are between you and your client. The client does not sound very responsive and maybe is stalling to delay payment, so you can either wait or resubmit again (without changes, as you have not received what you need) to start the clock. It is your decision to make. 

[glen-s]

Thank you Martina. That is troubling the Upwork provide no clarity on this grey area, as I am sure I not the first who is unsure about where this leaves me as a freelancer.

[petra_r · Accepted solution]

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Glen S wrote:

Thank you Martina. That is troubling the Upwork provide no clarity on this grey area, as I am sure I not the first who is unsure about where this leaves me as a freelancer.

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Well, actually they do. I don't have time to find it but there is something about just that kind of scenario in the help section.

I would have pressed the "resubmit button" the second the client failed to provide what he wanted changing.

If the client does this again and you can not reason with them, contact Support and dispute. Your client is the person who hired you and his client is not and should not be your problem.

[glen-s]

I see - I have contacted Upwork about this so hopefully they will be able to point this out to me.

The client said it was length and tone that was their client's issue - despite acknowledging they advised me to provide the length of content I submitted and giving me no guidance on tone.

I have resubmitted again and will see what occurs next.

Thanks again Petra.

[prestonhunter]

Petra is right.

I would also have clicked the resubmit button immediately if I asked for the changes and they did not provide them.

IT IS NOT OKAY for a client to click the Request Changes button, and not specify what needs to be changed.

If it was me, personally, I would have politely told the client that.

I would tell my client that they may now choose to release payment, and don't worry, I will make changes that they need, or I can close the contract and I will retain the work or myself and the contract is over.

I really don't have patience for clients messing around like this. I am not saying that this level of hardball works for every freelancer and every project. But this is my habit with fixed-price contracts.

[glen-s]

Thanks Preston. That’s a reasonable enough response I think.

I’ve been freelancing for 3 years via Upwork, PPH and direct and have been extremely lucky. Everyone has paid as required and I’ve built up a lot of reliable, regular clients who do not give me hassle.

This scenario is a first for me. I’ve never had to use the Upwork submittance process as every client has been reasonable and prepared to pay (I do ensure each project is fully funded, however). Maybe this is a lesson learned that I should start to use it from now on.

I have taken Petra’s and your advice and resubmitted with an explanation, so hopefully they come back and we can get this resolved.

[tlsanders]

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Martina P wrote:

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Glen S wrote:

Thanks Petra. That gives me a bit more clarity.

However, currently the client has not provided the actual changes. They have requested changes through the system and told me they are coming. Are they then allowed to take weeks on end before supplying this? Or is waiting a week a reasonable length of time before I raise dispute, given it has taken this long just to get to this point.

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There are no provisions about details such as this in the ToS, nor will upwork advise you on matters that are between you and your client. The client does not sound very responsive and maybe is stalling to delay payment, so you can either wait or resubmit again (without changes, as you have not received what you need) to start the clock. It is your decision to make. 

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This isn't entirely accurate. Though the TOS don't set a number of revisions or length of delay, moderators have advised freelancers in the past to open a dispute if they feel the client is abusing the "request revisions" feature to drag out the job.

[feed_my_eyes]

Could you change the first milestone to, say, 80% of the payment, and set up a new milestone of 20% for the revisions?

[petra_r]

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Christine A wrote:

Could you change the first milestone to, say, 80% of the payment, and set up a new milestone of 20% for the revisions?

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That tends the client to not want any revisions resulting in a 20% discount.

The "length" argument I would counter with "The length is according to what was agreed. I can, of course, make it shorter and/or longer as a new milestone for $ XXX.XX."

[glen-s]

That’s effectively what I’ve now done Petra. I’ve made it clear I’m happy to make the changes, but only once this milestone is paid and a new one is set up with funds.

[glen-s]

Thanks Christine. That’s a fair suggestion, although I feel I have completed the work as required in the original brief. They told me the length, which I provided, with no specific mention of tone. For them to come back after 3 weeks and not only provide no clarity, but to say the length and tone needs to be changed is unacceptable. I’m happy to make the changes, but only as a new, fully funded milestone.

[prestonhunter]

Clients should not be asking freelancers to do ANYTHING that is not specifically mentioned in the original fixed-price milestone agreement.

If a client wants something beyond that, she should close out the current milestone/contract and set up a new milestone to pay for that work, or set up an hourly contract, after asking the freelancer for permission to do so.

When clients are not taking responsibility for these things themselves, then obviously freelancers must guide them to do so.

But in all honesty, this is not a complicated concept: When a freelancer finishes the task, pay him. If you want more done, offer to pay him more.