Suggested Unfair JSS Profile Verbiage

[#1]

Hope this helps other freelancers who have truly been the victims of the UW private-client-feedback JSS problem.  

"MY 75% JSS: It Pains me to have to explain my recent 75% JSS score, I should not have to do so. UW allows clients to provide public feedback (which in the case of the "Writing Project" below shows a 4.55 out of 5.0 score), but to privately complain about a freelancer (which I can only presume this client did - UW won't tell me because the feedback is "private"). Freelancers are unable to know which client privately marks us down, but we are also unable to know what the exact criticism states - so we can address legitimate deficiencies. This practice is unpopular among the freelance community on Upwork, for good reason: it is sneaky, unethical and harmful to honest professionals on this platform. Please consider my other top-rated - and true-faced - client responses to my high-quality, professional work: it is a better measure of what you can expect vs what Upwork's notoriously questionable JSS will show.

[#2]

---

Mark K wrote:

My JSS is 75% because ONE client seemingly (although  I'll never know) did not click the radio-button which reads: "will recommend this freelancer". 

---

That is actually NOT true. Your JSS is 75% because you closed contracts yourself instead of had clients close them and leave feedback so you have too few feedbacks in the 24 month window and one of the ones you do have is negative. If those other contracts had been closed by clients, and therefore with feedback, you would not have a 75% JSS. Though whether it would be better or worse is not for me to say. 

[#3]

So now I am confused Amanda --

1. I was told that only recent contracts are included in the JSS.  75% was calculated before I closed my 2 most recent projects --- and so, unless the historical contracts (that I closed without feedback) "ARE" in fact included in JSS, you might be wrong about that.

2. I was told - and have read - that leaving jobs open for too long can impair my JSS.  So do I close them on my own when clients "REFUSE" to provide feedback - or wait until the JSS measurement window closes: or does it not matter after that time?

Also, per Petra above: "Simply encourage the client to close the contract (which guarantees feedback), at the end of a contract, if they don't, close it yourself."

3. If you have a magic method for persuading clients to leave feedback - despite my repeated requests: I am all ears.  This is a HUGE problem on UW - because UW refuses to implement a system to persuade clients to act responsibly in this regard.  Why? my guess is bc they know the clients have the $ and so they dare not be offended. 

Why are freelancers penalized when clients are allowed to refuse feedback?  That is not a reflexion of my work - it is a failure of the UW feedback mechanism. 

4. Better or worse is not for me to say either: because I have am not told which client dinged me (I have a guess) or what that client(s) specific complaint states.   Unless I am top-rated, and until I can convince two recent clients to leave feedback (multiple phone calls and emails to both -- crickets)... then I have no choice but to keep guessing. 

Mark

[#4]

I haven't kept up with this thread, so I apologize if some of this has been said.

---

Mark K wrote:

1. I was told that only recent contracts are included in the JSS.  75% was calculated before I closed my 2 most recent projects --- and so, unless the historical contracts (that I closed without feedback) "ARE" in fact included in JSS, you might be wrong about that.

---

The documentation in the JSS help pages clearly states that there are multiple evaluation periods (two years, one year, six months, and a "trending" score that takes into account the six-month and three-month average scores) and that the highest score across those is the one that's used.

---

2. I was told - and have read - that leaving jobs open for too long can impair my JSS.  So do I close them on my own when clients "REFUSE" to provide feedback - or wait until the JSS measurement window closes: or does it not matter after that time?

---

Leaving jobs open doesn't affect the score unless you need the feedback from the job to help your score. 

---

3. If you have a magic method for persuading clients to leave feedback - despite my repeated requests: I am all ears.  This is a HUGE problem on UW - because UW refuses to implement a system to persuade clients to act responsibly in this regard.  Why? my guess is bc they know the clients have the $ and so they dare not be offended. 

---

I never ask clients to leave feedback. When the work for a contract is done, I ask them once to close the contract. That's it. If they close the contract, they have to leave feedback. To me, asking any more than that is harassment and is likely to trigger a bad taste in their mouth, leading to bad feedback if they do leave any. If they don't close it, that's fine. I'll close it down the road.

---

Why are freelancers penalized when clients are allowed to refuse feedback?  That is not a reflexion of my work - it is a failure of the UW feedback mechanism. 

---

Freelancers are not penalized by clients not leaving feedback unless 1) the highest calculation window is the shortest and 2) there are no longer enough contracts with feedback for that window to generate a score.

---

4. Better or worse is not for me to say either: because I have am not told which client dinged me (I have a guess) or what that client(s) specific complaint states.   Unless I am top-rated, and until I can convince two recent clients to leave feedback (multiple phone calls and emails to both -- crickets)... then I have no choice but to keep guessing. 

---

Honestly, if a freelancer made multiple phone calls and emails to me asking me to leave feedback, they probably wouldn't like the feedback I'd leave. 

[#5]

I suppose I am in that exception window then Wes.

Thanks much for the details - it helps a lot. 

For reference: I don't ask for high-ratings or positive-feedback, I think that is gauche and unprofessional.   Instead, I ask them to please leave honest feedback, after I ask them how they think I performed on the project.  I ask ALL my clients, on phone or Zoom-like meeting: "are you comfortable with my deliverable, do we need to do more work to meet your objective?  How did I perform on this engagement, do you have comments or concerns" -- something very similar to that.  Well ALL of them except the high-earning project - he closed it without a discussion (and you can read my explanation of why there). 

But, I guess instead of "harrassing" them to leave feedback, I now need to "harrass" them to close the project so that I know they will leave feedback.  Which raises another issue doesn't it?  If I were here comlaining that client wont close our projects despite my asking them to, would you would suggest that I am harrassing them.

"If they don't close it, that's fine. I'll close it down the road"

But not too soon or too far down the road bc that is bad for your JSS, right?

[#6]

---

Mark K wrote:

"If they don't close it, that's fine. I'll close it down the road"

But not too soon or too far down the road bc that is bad for your JSS, right?

---

No, in almost all cases, the timing simply doesn't matter for JSS. I start closing them when my number of open jobs starts looking too high to me (around 20 for me, but I've seen people with many more open jobs than that). And I close no more than one every two weeks (just in case someone comes back and leaves poor feedback, which hasn't happened yet). I try to keep no more than a couple of no feedback contracts together, just because I don't think it looks good.

I think the main thing you're facing here is that since you only have five closed contracts in the last two years and all within the last few months, you're essentially starting over in terms of JSS. The 6-month window is your only active calculation window and with only five jobs, each one is going to carry an outsized impact on your JSS. 

[#7]

May as well say it...why not work on the anger, defensiveness, sarcasm, etc.? You may think it isn't all showing when you communicate with clients but I'm guessing it is.

And the instant but, but, but reaction to anything you don't want to hear, with that little edge...clients are just telling you what you want to hear to close things out, then privately giving their real feelings. Nobody wants to be verbally attacked. This is my best guess.

I'm giving you 100% honest feedback, not snarking. Your attitude is showing and it puts clients off and makes them scared to rock the boat.

Take it or leave it, like any feedback.

[#8]

---

Mark K wrote:

But not too soon or too far down the road bc that is bad for your JSS, right?

---

It isn't. It doesn't MATTER. Open contracts have no negative effect on your JSS, nor do contracts that close without feedback.

[#9]

---

Mark K wrote:

So now I am confused Amanda --

1. I was told that only recent contracts are included in the JSS.  75% was calculated before I closed my 2 most recent projects --- and so, unless the historical contracts (that I closed without feedback) "ARE" in fact included in JSS, you might be wrong about that.

2. I was told - and have read - that leaving jobs open for too long can impair my JSS.  So do I close them on my own when clients "REFUSE" to provide feedback - or wait until the JSS measurement window closes: or does it not matter after that time?

Also, per Petra above: "Simply encourage the client to close the contract (which guarantees feedback), at the end of a contract, if they don't, close it yourself."

3. If you have a magic method for persuading clients to leave feedback - despite my repeated requests: I am all ears.  This is a HUGE problem on UW - because UW refuses to implement a system to persuade clients to act responsibly in this regard.  Why? my guess is bc they know the clients have the $ and so they dare not be offended. 

Why are freelancers penalized when clients are allowed to refuse feedback?  That is not a reflexion of my work - it is a failure of the UW feedback mechanism. 

4. Better or worse is not for me to say either: because I have am not told which client dinged me (I have a guess) or what that client(s) specific complaint states.   Unless I am top-rated, and until I can convince two recent clients to leave feedback (multiple phone calls and emails to both -- crickets)... then I have no choice but to keep guessing. 

Mark

---

It actually is a reflection of the FL's work if we stipulate to the fact that successful freelancing requires, in addition to our core competencies, an array of soft skills that facilitate client management. Every successful FL I know, knows this is the case. Of course, we can't guarantee every client will bother to leave fb but if we aren't charming enough of them to keep our JSS up, then it's on us to figure out what to do differently.

[#10]

---

Mark K wrote:

John

Kudos though for making it into top-rated - I do know that takes hard work and dedication. 

I don't know how or why the existence of a TOS precludes manipulation: either intentionally or unwittingly.  You are saying that b/c a TOS exists, there is no JSS manipulation that occurs when top-rated members remove negative feedback?  It artifically keeps your JSS at 5.0, does it not? ...  which I thought was the problem with the old (pre-sneaky-feeback) JSS; clients were apparently leaving 5.0 to everyone in willy-nilly fashion, thus making the score meaningless.  If a client is earnestly scoring his/her experience with you at <5.0 (and does not recommend you, apparently) -  assume occured - and you turn that 3.8 (example) into a 5.0, aren't you guilty of making your JSS meaningless?  I would like to see that negative feedback, it could be material in my decision to hire you... but it is just 5.0 for pages upon pages: talk about meaningless mate.  If this is not a manipulative scoring practice, what other name would you give to it?  

This TOS argument is bandied here as a solution to a problem, and not the problem requiring a solution.  If you feel the need to plant your flag on TOS to justify your own questionable negative-JSS removal practices, that is fine ... but I hope you can see that you doing so makes your JSS somewhat meaningless (your excellent client marks notwithstanding).

And, I would be grateful to read a true-faced response to your attempt to cherry pick two jobs on my profile (and ignore the 5.0s) .... to make your point.   You impugned my reputation by doing so, and I ask you to make it right here.  

My JSS is 75% because ONE client seemingly (although  I'll never know) did not click the radio-button which reads: "will recommend this freelancer". 

---

• Another freelancer points out low scores in your history, making up some 18% of your public ratings. You yourself repeat those scores (in context) to make your own point.
• You take a single instance out of hundreds of jobs to characterize an Upwork-sanctioned adjustment as "manipulative."

Before tossing around terms like "cherry-picking" and "impugning," and demanding "mak[ing] things right," you might want to look at your own "practices."

By the way, would recommend is not a binary radio button. It's a point on a 10-point scale, corresponding both to NPS and to—ding!ding!ding!—the 90% threshold for Top Rated.

[#11]

The request was addressed to John, not you Michael.

[#12]

---

Mark K wrote:

The request was addressed to John, not you Michael.

---

Well, you are in an open forum, right?
Anyone can comment on a comment you've made, whether it's directed at that person or not.

I'm replying to something you say to Michael, because I can give my opinion just like anyone else.

[#13]

Good point Maria -- All are welcome to be as candid as they like - I like this game.

[#14]

---

Mark K wrote:

The request was addressed to John, not you Michael.

---

Mark,

There's a certain kind of irony running through this entire thread. You start off by complaining about hidden feedback. But people on this thread have been responding to you candidly with what they think, and you just don't like that either. 

From what I can understand from the interchanges on this thread, it doesn't seem like you respond well to feedback full stop. And that appears to be the gist of the client's comment.

[#15]

At this rate, I'm afraid of running out of popcorn.

[#16]

I should have gone to law school --- people dont full stop lawyers in court when they make great arguments. 

[#17]

---

Mark K wrote:

I should have gone to law school --- people dont full stop lawyers in court when they make great arguments. 

---

That's a great idea. On the way there, maybe you also find some great arguments.

[#18]

---

Mark K wrote:

I should have gone to law school --- people dont full stop lawyers in court when they make great arguments. 

---

But they do stop them when they make arguments that aren't so great. "My client signed a contract understanding all the rules, but now he doesn't like the rules - he thinks they're two-faced and hypocritical. So he demands they get changed" won't really hold up in court.

[#19]

---

Mark K wrote:

I should have gone to law school --- people dont full stop lawyers in court when they make great arguments. 

---

What a peculiar interpretation of the idiom.

[#20]

I hate when people use "full stop" -- but I won't let that (full) stop - get it - me from responding Renata.  I apologized already - for being opinionated -- guess you conveniently skipped right passed that.

I am responding to what I perceive are illogical and incorrect responses -- candidly.  Some people are not thinking critically, but just blasting forth with opinion lacking insight or fact, or searching my profile for sub-5.0 client marks to make a point, or stating UW generates its revenue from clients, or hiding behind TOS as an excuse for an unethical secret feedback mechanism, or contradicting themselve within their own post -- that sort of thing!  Being candid!!!

I suppose people on this thread can be candid, but I can't --- is that how you're full-stopping me here?

Turns out, that client comment contradicts directly with his scoring of my effort -- communication 5.0 vs "we are not able to communicate" ... I dont know about you and your thinking, but this is what I call a contradiction. 

[#21]

You could allow the client to change his feedback and make the stars match the communication evaluation.

[#22]

---

Mark K wrote:

I hate when people use "full stop" -- but I won't let that (full) stop - get it - me from responding Renata.  I apologized already - for being opinionated -- guess you conveniently skipped right passed that.

---

Hi Mark,
Have you heard of something called "deflecting"?  It works this way: if someone doesn't like what other people are saying, they pick apart how they say it. I'm really familiar with this style of argumentation.

Actually, I did notice that you apologized to Maria, but I think you're just using that as a deflection. If I my post was 3 feet long because I did an entire recap of the the thread post by post, I'd probably be reading about being longwinded. I get the argument style, believe me. 

What is illogical here? That a client left you private feedback indicating their displeasure with certain aspects of the contract? Sometimes people have personality differences that interfere with contracts going well. That's what the perk is there for, and in my books, it's not a black mark for anyone to use it. Bovine fertilizer happens (I'm not allowed to use the other term on this forum).

What you had racked up in your contract windows caused you to arrive at your current numbers. It might be a time to pause and think about your communication style and how you handle contracts (which is what the JSS is actually designed to measure) but somehow I doubt that's a likely outcome.

And how do you figure we lack insight and fact? A few of us have been through this before. The JSS is not a metric that always behaves in an outwardly logical way.

What is illogical is the amount of gas that's gone into this argument so far.

[#23]

---

Renata S wrote:

What is illogical is the amount of gas that's gone into this argument so far.

---

Unfortunately I think the OP just wants everyone to agree that he's right, and is arguing in bad faith. I don't think he's trying to understand or accept the help of others who have been where he has and have learned from being through it. He just wants to be right. No good faith arguments can be made with someone who just wants to be right.

[#24]

I will refer to you in the first person Amanda - as it seems more polite and professional than telling Renata to tell you what I think about your post.... **edited for Community Guidelines**.  I am being stubborn to be sure, b/c I have passion about the topic and you know why if you have read my posts --- and think I've made my point.   I have also learned some important details and acknowledged and thanked for them - someone who wants to just be right doesn't do that --  am i just trying to be right again?

I noticed also is that most responses are rooted in challenge, i.e. seems many posters haven't even considered the root idea here: that private client feedback has flaws. 

That is they way of so many UW discussions though: they attract contrarians dead-set on proving the OP wrong.  It can be very "troll" like ... too bad b/c the topic deserves better, insightful, open-minded discussion --- won't find it here!

Cheers -

[#25]

Mark, I have read your numerous responses, and regardless of what voice they are written in, they make it very clear why some clients have chosen to give you poor private feedback. If you want solutions as to how to improve your JSS, I suggest you start there. No manner of Upwork adjusting any algorithm makes up for the root cause of anyone's poor reviews. 

[#26]

agree - thanks Renata.