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olga_krav
Community Member

The client doesn't accept the work and doesn't explain the reason

Hello everyone! Hope for your answers. I have a fixed price contract. The job description was extensive and at first glance it seemed detailed, but if to read a little, the conclusion is one - to make the design of 2 sites, similar to the attached links, but using other colors (the colors he wrote).

The task indicated that the design for 2 sites should be the same, but differ in the color palette. So, I did the design. To which the client responded, no, this is not what we need, need more minimalist, as in the examples. In addition, he added that they should be completely different. I say that you actually wrote that they should be the same, but ok, I will do another.

And I began to do. In the process of work, he twice changed the clarification - what of the sites should look Than, about the second design he wrote "our client is not happy with this result." (yes, yes, this is not a direct client, but an intermediary client). I answered - can you check with your client, what exactly he does not like, what exactly he wants to change or add or remove in the work? Otherwise, how can I guess what he needs? To which he replied that I should to make a very similar design as in the examples ... (thanks cap). I made a third time, even more similar to the examples .. But how completely copy other sites? It's not professionality. So I did it in the same style as in the examples but offered different options for the placement and design of all elements. In general, I am now waiting for his answer.

By the way, he answers rarely, skips some of my questions when I clarify about work. Because of this, this project lasts longer than necessary.

Sorry for the long text, just wanted you to understand the situation as much as possible. Now the question is, if he again answers something like "This is not that" or "I do not like", without specifying the details, what would you do? I'm just afraid for my reputation. Once I already got an inadequate client, and that really again ...

ACCEPTED SOLUTION

Olga:

I can't tell you what to do.

 

But don't forget to consider the value of your time.

Sometimes it is better to cut your losses rather than spend a lot of time with somebody who is just going to waste your time.

 

If you have done what you agreed to do, then you DO have the option of submitting your work, to trigger payment... And if the client requests changes, you can file a dispute.

 

Or you can tell the client that the two of you will need to reach an agreement, because if you can't reach an agreement - a compromise, then you will need to file a dispute, which could end up with the client receiving zero money back.

 

"Jeremy:

I'm sorry if this didn't work out the way you planned. I am willing to agree to receiving only 50% of the money in escrow, and release the other half back to immediately. And I will let you keep all of the work I did. If you can't agree to that, I'll need to file a dispute in order to collect the full amount."

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36 REPLIES 36
feed_my_eyes
Community Member


Olga K wrote:

Hello everyone! Hope for your answers. I have a fixed price contract. The job description was extensive and at first glance it seemed detailed, but if to read a little, the conclusion is one - to make the design of 2 sites, similar to the attached links, but using other colors (the colors he wrote).

The task indicated that the design for 2 sites should be the same, but differ in the color palette. So, I did the design. To which the client responded, no, this is not what we need, need more minimalist, as in the examples. In addition, he added that they should be completely different. I say that you actually wrote that they should be the same, but ok, I will do another.

And I began to do. In the process of work, he twice changed the clarification - what of the sites should look Than, about the second design he wrote "our client is not happy with this result." (yes, yes, this is not a direct client, but an intermediary client). I answered - can you check with your client, what exactly he does not like, what exactly he wants to change or add or remove in the work? Otherwise, how can I guess what he needs? To which he replied that I should to make a very similar design as in the examples ... (thanks cap). I made a third time, even more similar to the examples .. But how completely copy other sites? It's not professionality. So I did it in the same style as in the examples but offered different options for the placement and design of all elements. In general, I am now waiting for his answer.

By the way, he answers rarely, skips some of my questions when I clarify about work. Because of this, this project lasts longer than necessary.

Sorry for the long text, just wanted you to understand the situation as much as possible. Now the question is, if he again answers something like "This is not that" or "I do not like", without specifying the details, what would you do? I'm just afraid for my reputation. Once I already got an inadequate client, and that really again ...


It is definitely unethical to completely copy somebody else's web design (and no, changing the colour palette is not good enough - you're still stealing somebody else's work). I would never have bid on such a project in the first place, and on fixed price projects, I always specify how many revisions I'm willing to do. Sorry that this advice won't help you now, but you might want to keep it in mind for the future.

 

As for this project, all you can do at this point is say that you're willing to do one more round of revisions, but that you cannot get started until you receive clear responses to your questions. (I would suggest a conference call with your client AND your client's client, if possible.) Also state that if he requires further rounds of revisions, you will need him to set a new milestone for additional payments, or switch to an hourly project. Otherwise, you'll be stuck doing random revisions until his client sees something that catches his eye. 

Yes, you're right. I’m completely against copying other people's works, so I’m doing my own designs (maybe he doesn’t accept them because he wants a copy? But I can't to do this. By submitting an application, I thought he meant the design style ..
tlsanders
Community Member

What is the official status? Did you submit the work for payment and he used the "request revisions" feature, or is all this back and forth happening outside the process?

I submitted the work after I made the second designs, and didn't get his answer for a day. And after that he said that their client isn't satisfied with the design, but what exactly didn't answer

Accept partial payment, demand full payment, or end the contract.

 

They will never be satisfied with your work unless you do twice the amount.

 

(I've seen this story play out a million times.) 


Alexander B wrote:

Accept partial payment, demand full payment, or end the contract.

 

They will never be satisfied with your work unless you do twice the amount.

 

(I've seen this story play out a million times.) 


Maybe, maybe not. I always think it's best to communicate with the client and try to sort things out - I've only ever cancelled contracts as a last resort.

If a client hired you to do a certain task, and you did the agreed-upon task, then the client needs to pay you.

 

It's that simple.

 

Otherwise, the client is being unprofessional and unethical.

 

If the client has a headache or wants to go skiing or lost funding for the project or hates your work or pretends he doesn't like your work or sincerely doesn't like your work... All of that is irrelevent.

 

You were hired to do Task X.

You did Task X.

Client is expected to release payment.

 

If the client hired you to do something that the client is passing on to somebody else, and that somebody else doesn't like your work, that has nothing to do with you.


The client who HIRED YOU still needs to PAY YOU.

 

Having said all that, there times when the correct tactical move for a freelancers is to negotiate with a client and accept a partial payment. Or do some other things, which can include ending the contract oneself, filing a dispute, etc.

 

Regardless of what the best move for a FREELANCER is... it is always the correct thing to do for a CLIENT to release payment to a freelancer who has done the agreed-upon work.


Preston H wrote:

If a client hired you to do a certain task, and you did the agreed-upon task, then the client needs to pay you.

 

It's that simple.

 

Otherwise, the client is being unprofessional and unethical.

 

If the client has a headache or wants to go skiing or lost funding for the project or hates your work or pretends he doesn't like your work or sincerely doesn't like your work... All of that is irrelevent.

 

You were hired to do Task X.

You did Task X.

Client is expected to release payment.

 

If the client hired you to do something that the client is passing on to somebody else, and that somebody else doesn't like your work, that has nothing to do with you.


The client who HIRED YOU still needs to PAY YOU.


The client hasn't said anything about not paying, he just wants HIS client to be happy with the work, which is not unreasonable. If the OP didn't set any limits on the number of revisions she was willing to do, then clarifying that is the first port of call, IMO.

re: "The client hasn't said anything about not paying, he just wants HIS client to be happy with the work, which is not unreasonable. If the OP didn't set any limits on the number of revisions she was willing to do, then clarifying that is the first port of call..."

 

Christine is correct about this.

 

Which is why an important thing for a FREELANCER to do is to specify that there will be no revisions granted, or there will be 1, or there will be X amount of time allotted for changes, etc.

 

If this is NOT DEFINED in the original agreement, then we can run into problems.

by the way, maybe he doesn’t want to pay, because yesterday he gave a hint that his client said that I wasn’t suitable for this job. interesting, right? when I ask specific questions, I get only one answer - we need something similar, as in the attached links. and that's all he can say ..

Olga:

I can't tell you what to do.

 

But don't forget to consider the value of your time.

Sometimes it is better to cut your losses rather than spend a lot of time with somebody who is just going to waste your time.

 

If you have done what you agreed to do, then you DO have the option of submitting your work, to trigger payment... And if the client requests changes, you can file a dispute.

 

Or you can tell the client that the two of you will need to reach an agreement, because if you can't reach an agreement - a compromise, then you will need to file a dispute, which could end up with the client receiving zero money back.

 

"Jeremy:

I'm sorry if this didn't work out the way you planned. I am willing to agree to receiving only 50% of the money in escrow, and release the other half back to immediately. And I will let you keep all of the work I did. If you can't agree to that, I'll need to file a dispute in order to collect the full amount."

May be you are right. I think I'll wait what he will answer me, if it will be again something like before, probably your advice is the right way for this situation.
Thanks everyone!

In my opinion that client is trying to get the job done for free. In the case they do want to pay a meeting with all 3 parts would be the best solution because it looks as if this client doesn't know how to explain what he wants, and that is actually essential from the get-go. Or maybe his client is the one who doesn't know how to explain...

 

You have done many revisions already and they get you in a neverending circle, but you have to be paid, at least half of the agreed amount. In this forum an analogy has been mentioned several times: when you go to a restaurant and have a meal you must pay even if you don't like the meal you ordered. If you don't know how to explain to the waiter what you want to eat, if you just say "bring me food, something similar to what appears in that photo" it's not the cook's fault if you don't like it, and even if you don't eat it you still need to pay.

You know, I also had such an idea that he either wants to get a job for free or at a very low price, he even initially tried to drop the price, but I didn't agree, because cost and so not high.
And about the comparison with the restaurant you wrote very nicely) Sometimes I say like this: for example, I like the green color, but another person don’t like. But this doesn't mean that the green color is bad, right? Just to someone who does not like it, need to decide on a different color)

Hi Preston! Thank you for the advice, we agreed for a half of amount of the contract. 

May be you know, client's feedback is hiden for me untill I don't give my feedback due 14 days, and there is my question - his feedback is hiden only for me or for another clients too? Somebody knows?

 

Hi Olga, 

 

Upwork feedback system is double-blind which means that feedback doesn't show publicly until both parties provide feedback or 14 days after the contract was closed, whichever comes first. Neither you nor others will be able to see it on your profile until then.

~ Valeria
Upwork

Ok, thank you)

Hi Valeria K! I decided to leave my feedback to this client. May be u know, how to choose the right reason for ending of the contract - ''Job completed succesfully'' or ''Another reason" ?

Hi Olga,

 

I would suggest choosing the option that you think its the best fit for closing your contract, thank you.

~ Goran
Upwork

Ok thanks!


Olga K wrote:
by the way, maybe he doesn’t want to pay, because yesterday he gave a hint that his client said that I wasn’t suitable for this job. interesting, right? when I ask specific questions, I get only one answer - we need something similar, as in the attached links. and that's all he can say ..

I think it's very possible that your client has no idea what his client wants and is groping around in the dark providing you with bad/incomplete information because he doesn't understand his client's project well enough to convey it to you.

May be, I also thought about this or as Sergio S wrote, he want not to pay and get the work for free or for low price. I think these are two possible options. I wrote him a long message asking me to clarify all the necessary details, etc. Let's see what he will answer. As I wrote, he rarely responds, so for now I’m waiting and I hope that everything will be resolved.

re: "he rarely responds, so for now I’m waiting and I hope that everything will be resolved."

 

That could be a good thing.


If it was me, I would definitely use the "Submit Work / Request Payment" button.

 

And then not send him ANYTHING. Don't remind him of the project. Hope that he is completely non-responsive, and then you get paid automatically.

 

But this only works if he never clicks the button to "request revisions."

Yes, I've already submited the work when I made the 2nd design. It will be great if I get the paymant automatically, and by the way he didn't use the button "request revisions".

And what will happen if he uses this button? Will a new countdown of two weeks start from the moment I make a change? (for the umpteenth time alreadySmiley Frustrated)


Olga K wrote:

Yes, I've already submited the work when I made the 2nd design. It will be great if I get the paymant automatically, and by the way he didn't use the button "request revisions".

And what will happen if he uses this button? Will a new countdown of two weeks start from the moment I make a change? (for the umpteenth time alreadySmiley Frustrated)


Yes, the countdown starts over if he hits "request revision." You're stuck with a farmer who can't manage projects well or doesn't understand the client's requests. I've been here before too, so at some point' if this idiot doesn't get his act together, he won't want to pay you because likely his client doesn't want to pay him. You can let him know that your contract is with him, not the client so he needs to pay you. Go into mediation and pay the arbitration fee and he'll likely back down.

Yes, if the situation repeats, I will have to do it. You do not know if I open a dispute, he will still be able to leave me a review? It will be very sad if he suddenly wants to spoil my statistics ..


Olga K wrote:

Yes, if the situation repeats, I will have to do it. You do not know if I open a dispute, he will still be able to leave me a review? It will be very sad if he suddenly wants to spoil my statistics ..


Yeah, he will but you're top rated so you can just use the perk.

I hope that doesn't happen..


Olga K wrote:

I hope that doesn't happen..


It's really not a big deal, but it is an annoyance. Arbitration sucks hardcore, but the whole mediation process is not that bad when you know how it works. I think everyone should experience it once and after you realize how things work you can run circles around these clients who think they can just get a refund because they're a farmer and their client didn't pay them. 

 

You can legit walk into mediation and just say "I want x or arbitration. That's it." And then the mediator goes back to the client, lets them know, and comes back to you for the arbitration fee. Then you just wait it out, get your money back, and get your money too.

 

I had to do a phone call once. I've never heard of them doing this, so I assume it was some kind of trial thing they're doing or maybe they only do it for certain jobs. Phone calls are fun. lol 

Well, I want to see what he will answer my last message and whether he will answer at all))

It's kinda weird to me but I've had so many issues with escrow. Some I've dealt with without a dispute, but ugh the endless revisions and internally asking yourself if you'll  do just one last one to just get it over with and take the money instead of fighting over it. I tell people 1 but that doesn't stop them from asking for more.

 

Have had 0 issues with hourly projects though, but then again endless revisions are never an issue.

I usually did 1, maximum 2 design options and everything was ok. Of course, it happens that the client asks to make changes to the work, or wants to remove or add something, but my previous clients always clearly said what they want.

But working for this project I ask questions, but I can't get clear answers and because of this such a problem.


Olga K wrote:

I usually did 1, maximum 2 design options and everything was ok. Of course, it happens that the client asks to make changes to the work, or wants to remove or add something, but my previous clients always clearly said what they want.

But working for this project I ask questions, but I can't get clear answers and because of this such a problem.


It's because he's a farmer and from what you are saying, I'm guessing he hasn't told the client he's outsourcing or he could just put the two of you in a room and let you chat to clear things up.

Yes, I want to ask him about it when he gets in touch

No-ones likes a dispute, and I am not sure but I believe a dispute must be paid as well by both parts, to Upwork, so it also represents a monetary cost. Smiley Sad

 

You're right about the colors but remember that in graphic design it's not about what colors we like but instead what we communicate with colors. I don't like coffee at all but if I have to make an ad for a coffee brand I must make it look delicious, inviting, etc.

 

If I were you I would have declined the offer the moment he tried to talk me into lower the price. That's just disrepectful and a red flag in my book.

yes, you're right. About the colors it's just an example, I mean that one person like a design, and at the same time, another person may not like this design, and this is normal. Perhaps this is a lesson to me for the future, if the client wants to get the work cheaper, it’s probably best not to work with him. Of course, not everyone is like that, but still..

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