🐈
» Forums » Freelancers » The client is harassing and bullying me onlin...
Page options
caramel11
Community Member

The client is harassing and bullying me online

I have reported a client last week and filed a dispute to upwork to settle things out. I've got a contract for 100 USD for a 12-page research proposal which I submitted, revised based on the comments and re-submitted to him. After I submitted the revised draft, he canceled/terminated the contract and offered me to pay 10 USD in PayPal instead. I did not agree and instead filed a dispute and reported the client to upwork. The upwork specialist said that the client has committed circumvention but refuse to provide further details on the outcome of the investigation. Now, the client is harassing me online, threatening to call the police here in the country where I'm staying right now and even threatened to call my university where I am taking my Ph.D.  While these are empty threats and I know that he can't move forward with it, I found these legitimate forms of harassment. I'm just a bit frustrated with upwork for failure to protect the freelancers from these kinds of intimidation. Those messages were sent on the "dispute" dialogue box, yet no one has intervened. Days before the contract was terminated by the client, I have already contacted upwork and reported the client but they again failed to act. I'm not sure what to do with this, but clearly, the client is intimidating and harassing me to back down from the dispute and get his money back. Hope someone can help me in identifying further actions I can take to stop the client from harassing me. 

70 REPLIES 70
prestonhunter
Community Member

You are correct: these are empty threats. Block this person. Block him in the Upwork messenger tool and block him in your email tool, and any other way he can communicate with you. Stop wasting your time with him. Do not respond to him, because that is what he wants. The worst thing you can do to him is to not even see his threats or rantings, and that is the best thing you can do for yourself.

Thanks so much preston! That’s what I did in my message box, the problem however is in the chat box for payment dispute. That is where the client sends those threats, I could not block the client in that portal since the dispute process is ongoing. I thought the dispute portal is to be moderated by someone from upwork, sadly, no one moderates the discussion there.


Melvin M wrote:
Thanks so much preston! That’s what I did in my message box, the problem however is in the chat box for payment dispute. That is where the client sends those threats, I could not block the client in that portal since the dispute process is ongoing. I thought the dispute portal is to be moderated by someone from upwork, sadly, no one moderates the discussion there.

Just let him behave as badly as possible so he looks as bad as possible. This is good for you 😉

You may have to take this all the way to arbitration as Upwork can not make a final, legally binding decision on a dispute when no agreement can be reached. Stay calm, say nothing unless directed to do so by the mediator, and keep saying you will go to arbitration (which will cost you $ 291, but you get that back if the client bottles out at this stage, which he will do)

 

That’s so reassuring! Thanks so much Petra.. will take note of your advice. I will now check on the process of arbitration so I can prepare.

Best,
Melvin


Melvin M wrote:
That’s so reassuring! Thanks so much Petra.. will take note of your advice. I will now check on the process of arbitration so I can prepare.

It will not go to arbitration. The client is not going to pay $ 291 to lose at arbitration OR to win a possible $ 100 ... (Remember that you have to pay $ 291 to force the client to do so, and if the client DOES you do not get the $ 291 back... But if the client does not, you get the the $ 291 back and the funds in Escrow 😉  )

wlyonsatl
Community Member

If Upwork does have clear proof in its own messaging system that this is such an abusive client, Upwork will have failed you if they force you to go all the way to even threatening this client with arbitration in order to get paid.

 

Good luck.

 

 


Will L wrote:

If Upwork does have clear proof in its own messaging system that this is such an abusive client, Upwork will have failed you if they force you to go all the way to even threatening this client with arbitration in order to get paid.


legally Upwork can not decide over Escrow funds.

 

They can, and probably already have, suspend the client's account, but that does not touch the fact that funds in Escrow are governed by legal restrictions.

 

How do you know that Upwork cannot legally release escrowed funds if the client doesn't provide a reasonable reason for not releasing them, Petra?

 

I'm not saying it is legal, but how do you know it is against the law for them to do so?

 

And what law is applicable here - US law, the law of the country where the client is located, the country where the freelancer is located, other?


Will L wrote:

1) How do you know that Upwork cannot legally release escrowed funds if the client doesn't provide a reasonable reason for not releasing them, Petra?

2) And what law is applicable here - US law, the law of the country where the client is located, the country where the freelancer is located, other?


1) I know it because it was confirmed years ago when Escrow was first brought in with the acquisition of Elance.

Escrow is super strictly legislated, this is the reason why Upwork can not make a decision over Escrow funds, only an independent arbitrator can. Otherwise there would never be any need for arbitration, would there? Mediators can only suggest solutions, never decide.

 

2) The applicable law would be (this part I assume because I have no time to check and only vaguely remember) the laws governing the Escrow Agent (Upwork Escrow Inc.) 

Upwork's own rules, not governmental law or regulation, largely determines how Upwork handles escrowed funds as defined in the Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions in the Terms of Service:

 

https://www.upwork.com/legal#fp

 

I am not aware of any legal reason Upwork can't release funds when a client has given no rational reason payment to the freelancer in this case should be withheld. Upwork may not want to do so for various other reasons, but I have seen no evidence it would be illegal for Upwork to do so.

 

At any rate, Melvin it will be interesting to know what Upwork's mediation expert recommends in this dispute.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

Hi Will, thanks so much. I will let the community know of the outcome. It just pains me to think that upwork could not do anything for these forms of harassment and bullying online. The client committed numerous blunders already which I reported and I provided all the proof but upwork still allowed the client to continue using the platform and hire freelancers. 


Will L wrote:

Upwork's own rules, not governmental law or regulation, largely determines how Upwork handles escrowed funds as defined in the Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions in the Terms of Service:

It's a high bar, but this may be the most absurd statement ever made in these forums.

 

Are you truly under the impression that Upwork (or anyone else) can simply contractually agree to violate the law and that makes it fine?

Hi Eveyone,

 

Thanks for all the comments and inputs on how to go around with my problem. The dispute specialist of upwork just recently awarded the USD 100 in my favor. She is really helpful, I wanted to put her name here in the forum but the rules might not allow me to do so. My tip is to do all communications in upwork portal rather than using outside forms such as skype, etc. It was helpful in my case that I had a screenshot of our conversation where the client gave his skype account during our conversation in upwork(because the client did all the communications in skype afterwards). Now, I have a lot of lessons learned and I agree with some of the comments that it might be better to have an hourly contract or if in case you get engaged with fixed rate contract, do it per milestones.

 

Thanks again.

Melvin

Congratulations.

So, it looks like Upwork's hands are not completely tied by legal restrictions when it comes to releasing escrow when there is a dispute.

 

And the idea that Upwork reserves the right to use its own judgment in such cases is not at all absurd.

 

Bravo, Upwork.


Will L wrote:

So, it looks like Upwork's hands are not completely tied by legal restrictions when it comes to releasing escrow when there is a dispute.

 

And the idea that Upwork reserves the right to use its own judgment in such cases is not at all absurd.


Will,

I am not sure where you are deriving your inferences. Pretty much any statement about legal restrictions that includes the word "completely" is questionable.

It remains the nature of escrow that funds may be released when the conditions of escrow are met. Little if any "judgment" in making that determination is legally allowed the escrow agent. That is why Upwork's "mediation" in a dispute typically consists of urging the contracting parties to come to an agreement. That is why if the parties cannot come to an agreement, Upwork's only recourse is to refer to the option of legally binding arbitration.

In my experience, a contractor may be awarded disputed funds if the client is non-responsive to the dispute. As far as I know, that is as close as Upwork ever gets to "judgment."

 

And in response to your earlier question, California (and US where applicable) law governs Upwork. As I recall, it is primarily California law that governs escrow.


Melvin M wrote:

Hi Eveyone,

 

Thanks for all the comments and inputs on how to go around with my problem. The dispute specialist of upwork just recently awarded the USD 100 in my favor. She is really helpful, I wanted to put her name here in the forum but the rules might not allow me to do so. My tip is to do all communications in upwork portal rather than using outside forms such as skype, etc. It was helpful in my case that I had a screenshot of our conversation where the client gave his skype account during our conversation in upwork(because the client did all the communications in skype afterwards). Now, I have a lot of lessons learned and I agree with some of the comments that it might be better to have an hourly contract or if in case you get engaged with fixed rate contract, do it per milestones.

 

Thanks again.

Melvin


Let's be clear. The mediator didn't "side" with you. the client backed out or gave in and gave you the money. 


Melvin M wrote:
It was helpful in my case that I had a screenshot of our conversation where the client gave his skype account during our conversation in upwork(because the client did all the communications in skype afterwards).

I'm not sure how you think this was helpful. Upwork would not have pursued any evidence contained in Skype conversations. They will consider screenshots of off-platform correspondence in certain cases. As noted repeatedly throughout this thread, there is no evidence that Upwork did or could have considered any such evidence in your case.


Will L wrote:

How do you know that Upwork cannot legally release escrowed funds if the client doesn't provide a reasonable reason for not releasing them, Petra?

 

I'm not saying it is legal, but how do you know it is against the law for them to do so?

 

And what law is applicable here - US law, the law of the country where the client is located, the country where the freelancer is located, other?


She's right. They tell you over and over and over again during mediation. Even though they say it, people are still surprised when, let's say, I go in and refuse their settlement offer. The mediator will tell you both that if a settlement doesn't happen, Upwork cannot make a binding decision by law and both parties have to pay for arbitration. If one doesn't pay, the money goes to the other one.

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Melvin,

 

Upwork says, "...if the parties are unable to agree in a reasonable period of time, the dispute specialist will make a non-binding recommendation."

 

Please let us know what your dispute specialist's non-binding recommendation is. 

 

And please leave professional but factual feedback on this client in your project feedback (assuming Upwork doesn't ban him completely). Other freelancers deserve to know how this guy operates.

I rarely use fixed price contracts, but now that I have read through the current version of the Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions (effective April 20, 2018) in Upwork’s Terms of Service, it is interesting to see that the only way a freelancer can absolutely assure payment from an abusive/dishonest client under a fixed-price contract is to pay $291 and eventually win at arbitration. (Yes, a client might back down when forced to arbitration, but (s)he might not.)

 

For anyone who says Upwork has no discretion in releasing escrow, Upwork clearly says, “We believe, in our sole discretion, that fraud, an illegal act, or a violation of Upwork's Terms of Service has been committed or is being committed or attempted, in which case Client and Freelancer irrevocably authorize and instruct Upwork Escrow to take such actions as we deem appropriate in our sole discretion…”

 

Is wildly abusive behavior by either a client or freelancer not a violation of Upwork’s Terms of Service or acceptable standards of behavior (not all of which are publicly stated)?

 

Has no client or freelancer ever been booted from Upwork for abusive behavior?


Will L wrote:

I rarely use fixed price contracts, but now that I have read through the current version of the Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions (effective April 20, 2018) in Upwork’s Terms of Service, it is interesting to see that the only way a freelancer can absolutely assure payment from an abusive/dishonest client under a fixed-price contract is to pay $291 and eventually win at arbitration. (Yes, a client might back down when forced to arbitration, but (s)he might not.)

 

For anyone who says Upwork has no discretion in releasing escrow, Upwork clearly says, “We believe, in our sole discretion, that fraud, an illegal act, or a violation of Upwork's Terms of Service has been committed or is being committed or attempted, in which case Client and Freelancer irrevocably authorize and instruct Upwork Escrow to take such actions as we deem appropriate in our sole discretion…”

 

Is wildly abusive behavior by either a client or freelancer not a violation of Upwork’s Terms of Service or acceptable standards of behavior (not all of which are publicly stated)?

 

Has no client or freelancer ever been booted from Upwork for abusive behavior?


Fraud meaning a stolen card or it seems sometimes if the freelancer is lying about who they are, money goes back to the client. I would imagine the hardcore identity stuff is also legal cuz if Upwork got caught funneling money to ISIS or some poop, that would be bad.

 

Abuse is relative. And really if they are stupid and rage at you in the workroom and it does go to arbitration, it makes them look bad. Nobody cares if some dumb client hurts your fee fees. I get called unprofessional and arrogant allll the time when this stuff goes down. Just makes that payout even sweeter. lol

 

But yeah escrow should be avoided if you don't have $300. It's a pain. I go for hourly as much as I can, but there are some clients that don't give you any hassle and just pay you with escrow. 

 

I read freelancers say that anything under $300 is impossible to get, but I would say anything less than $300 is easier to get if you have $300 to throw around. It's the higher amounts that you have to fight to get a payout in mediation or you're going to arbitration which can drag things out for 6+ weeks. That's why if you go into mediation, it's really best for both parties to take a settlement. I always go for more than what I would get if I went to arbitration. If I can get the client to give me more than what I would make in arbitration (minus the $300) then I consider it a success.

estrategic
Community Member

Hi Melvin and thank you for bring up an important issue.   I agree with everyone who says that the threats are meaningless because they are.  But that's not the point.

 

The point is that on a fixed amount contract, it will cost you $291 to get paid if the client refuses to authorize payment.  Mediation is non-binding.  If the client simply refuses to pay without so much as a blink of an eye, you forfeit or you have to pay $291.

 

I don't believe Upwork have thought this through at all.


Steven S wrote:

Hi Melvin and thank you for bring up an important issue.   I agree with everyone who says that the threats are meaningless because they are.  But that's not the point.

 

The point is that on a fixed amount contract, it will cost you $291 to get paid if the client refuses to authorize payment.  Mediation is non-binding.  If the client simply refuses to pay without so much as a blink of an eye, you forfeit or you have to pay $291.

 

I don't believe Upwork have thought this through at all.


It's not so much that they haven't thought it through as that the options are limited. Many people complain about this system (fairly, because it prevents low-earning freelancers who most need the money from effectively fighting for what they're owed), but I've never seen anyone complaining about it offer a viable alternative.

 

Upwork isn't allowed to make the decision.

 

Outside arbitrators are expensive (in fact, Upwork has negotiated a great deal here, probably based on volume--$1500 would be more standard, which would have the freelancer kicking in $500). 

 

Thinking it through, how would you address the problem?


Tiffany S wrote:

 

Upwork isn't allowed to make the decision.

 

Outside arbitrators are expensive (in fact, Upwork has negotiated a great deal here, probably based on volume--$1500 would be more standard, which would have the freelancer kicking in $500). 


Exactly.

People think Upwork Escrow Inc can just say "The client is a nasty human being so let's award the freelancer the money."

 

It does not work like that. The whole point of Escrow is that it is an entity that does not take sides. That is what arbitration is for.

 

Also, without hearing both sides we do not know whether the client has a point or not. It is super easy to jump on one side's bandwagon while ignorant of the other side's case. Just because the client is behaving like an (beep-beep) does not neccessarily mean they have no case.

 

 

 

Actually no!

 

Escrow is to hold the funds until the job is complete.  Its not about nasty people.  

 

The way for a client to get funds back on a low paying job is to refuse to authorize payment.

The way for a freelancer to get paid on a low paying job is to pay $291.

 

If the AAA's fees were more in line with what freelancers actually got paid per disputed job, we may see eye to eye on this.

 

I maintain that Upwork have not thought this through.

Tiffany, I don't believe its up to me to make any suggestion.   However, since you pose the question, lets assume that the client has no intention and has never had any intention of paying.   

 

Upwork can make a decision, based on its T&C's that the client is refusing to pay for no good reason.  If the client then disputes, lets say the credit card transaction, Upwork can point to its internal record of mediation.  

 

Nothing is fixed and therre is no "legal".  If a client has no intention of paying, then the client should be called out on it.  if there are grounds for dispute, then certainly, a compromise is called for.


Steven S wrote:

Tiffany, I don't believe its up to me to make any suggestion.   However, since you pose the question, lets assume that the client has no intention and has never had any intention of paying.   


Tiffany is a US based lawyer..... and how are you "assuming that the client has no intention and has never had any intention of paying" - are you a mindreader? Or a US based lawyer rather than a South African tech person? Which US law school did you graduate from?

 


Steven S wrote:

 

Upwork can make a decision, based on its T&C's

You know that how, exactly? You have insight into both sides? You are a lawyer?

 


Steven S wrote:

 

Nothing is fixed and therre is no "legal". 


Really? You know that... based on... what, exactly? Of course there is "legal" - Escrow agents are very, VERY tightly regulated. You obviously have some inside info into this case that leads you to this post. Care to share how you know that "therre is no "legal" ?

 


Steven S wrote:

Tiffany, I don't believe its up to me to make any suggestion. 


quite. So why did you, then? Not just "make a suggestion" - but state stuff you could not possibly unless you had insight to both parties point of view AND legal knowledge of US Escrow laws.

 

From what I can see, you have neither.

 

 

Petra - why are you attacking the messenger?

 

Why are you directing the conversation all over the place?

 

The only single point I have ever made on this thread, is that Upwork is not protecting the freelancer, in the situation of a small job and a reluctant client.  Escrow is failing some of us. 

 

Allow me to be very specific.  A small job by New York/San Fransisco/London standards could be a kings ransom elsewhere in the world.  The cost of arbitration is set by a standard which is affordable in some cases and not affordable in others.  

 

I am grateful to Upwork, for introducing me to clients that I would otherwise not have met.  But there is a working flaw in the system.  Why do I have to be a lawyer to understand that?

 

 

 

Steven, I have no idea what you mean by "there is no legal," but it seems that you're suggesting that Upwork should break the law in the way it handles escrow because that would seem fairer to you. That would only benefit freelancers for a month or two,and then Upwork would be prohibited from acting as an escrow agent, perhaps sued, perhaps fined, and the whole system would come screeching to a halt, leaving you to find your own clients elsewhere--which is always an option if you find the current system so unacceptable that you think the reasonable path is for Upwork to ignore the law.

This is faninating Tiffany.   You have allocated to me, a response I never made, using words that I never wrote.  So I have to ask you why?

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi Melvin,

 

Sorry to hear you are having issues with a client. I checked and it looks like the team is still in the process of reviewing the client and the information you provided. The dispute is currently open as well. Unfortunately, we can't share the outcome of the review and the details of another user's account status for privacy information, but the team will definitely guide you through the dispute process.

Meanwhile, you can read more about the process here.

~ Valeria
Upwork

Thank you so much Valeria! The upwork service reps I have contacted with are very professional and extremely helpful.

Regardless of what somebody might actually be able to get away with... We should remember this:

 

The fixed-price contract model is intended for clients to hire a freelancer to do a task, and then pay them for doing so. The escrow system is in place to support that in a way that is fair for both parties.

 

None of this is intended as a way for clients to get work done for free.

 

Every freelancer AND client should understand that when a client hires a freelancer to do a task, and the freelancer does it, then the client needs to pay her.

 

Period.

 

It doesn't matter if the client's project got cancelled or if the client needs money to pay for his rent or if the client can find fault with the work. If the work that was agreed upon was done, then the client needs to pay. Otherwise, the client is a bad person.

 

Even if the client can find a loophole or a button in the Upwork user interface that allows him to avoid paying.


Preston H wrote:

Regardless of what somebody might actually be able to get away with... We should remember this:

 

The fixed-price contract model is intended for clients to hire a freelancer to do a task, and then pay them for doing so. The escrow system is in place to support that in a way that is fair for both parties.

 

None of this is intended as a way for clients to get work done for free.

 

Every freelancer AND client should understand that when a client hires a freelancer to do a task, and the freelancer does it, then the client needs to pay her.

 

Period.

 

It doesn't matter if the client's project got cancelled or if the client needs money to pay for his rent or if the client can find fault with the work. If the work that was agreed upon was done, then the client needs to pay. Otherwise, the client is a bad person.

 

Even if the client can find a loophole or a button in the Upwork user interface that allows him to avoid paying.


Thanks Preston for summing up the freelancer's side, but as you also like to mention quite often clients, as well as freelancers, can cancel a job at any time.

 

I do not think there is a loophole in the system only this massive hole freelancers are digging for themself by handing over their work to the client without using the "submit work for payment" function.

Jennifer, one assumes that all freelancers are smart enough to clieck the right button when in comes to payment.

 

The button is not the issue and never was.  It's the response of the client once the request for payment has been made, that this thread is about.

 

My experience has been on the whole very positive.  Most clients pay and pay promptly and sometimes add a bonus.  For this, I get to pay my rent, Upwork get their commission and the the client is satified with a great job.  Its the few clients that refuse to pay no matter what, that we are debating here. My point started off as - and remains - that the escrow system is failing freelancers at the lower end of the payment scale.

Steven,

 

No matter how hard it tries, Upwork will never be able to treat low-priced projects and the freelancers who work on them with the same level of service and fairness as higher-priced projects. There is no way to throw enough people and resources at resolving disagreements  on projects where Upwork only makes a few dollars itself.

 

No, this situation isn't fair. But it isn't going to change either, so low-priced freelancers have to be particularly careful to adhere to every rule and protocol Upwork requires. Maybe using multiple milestones, not starting work on a milestone until payment is released for the previous milestone or other tactics would help deter this sort of abuse, but I am lucky enough not to have to use fixed price contracts so I am no expert.

 

I hope Melvin gets a fair resolution to his problem, but I expect freelancers - especially those who work on fixed price projects - who cannot afford to pay $291 for arbitration will always be at the mercy of unscrupulous clients.

 

I would hope that clients who engage in this sort of abusive activity are eventually removed by Upwork, but we have no way of knowing whether this happens or not. 

 

 


Steven S wrote:

Jennifer, one assumes that all freelancers are smart enough to clieck the right button when in comes to payment.

 

The button is not the issue and never was.  It's the response of the client once the request for payment has been made, that this thread is about.

 

My experience has been on the whole very positive.  Most clients pay and pay promptly and sometimes add a bonus.  For this, I get to pay my rent, Upwork get their commission and the the client is satified with a great job.  Its the few clients that refuse to pay no matter what, that we are debating here. My point started off as - and remains - that the escrow system is failing freelancers at the lower end of the payment scale.


You would be surprised how many freelancers post here everyday because they did not hand over their work officially and the client just disappears.

 

And I actually think, that the escrow system is the best you can get if used correctly. It is far easier than sending invoices all the time. Do you really think a client would risk $291 just to avoid paying $100? The client will not get his $100 back fro excrow until arbitration is solved. I fail to see how the escrow system is failing here.

 

Every business is a risk. Clients can hire the wrong freelancer and pay twice, freelancers can have bad luck with clients. Just remember: "Life is like a box a chocolate, you never know what your going to get."

Jeniffer, I am going to address your remarks in a general way and I am hoping that if you haven't "got it" yet, perhaps you will understand a little bit more.

 

The minimum wage in the USA in general is $7.50 and increasing.   A job waiting tables or cleaning dishes, brings in maybe $60 a shift.  Now, earlier Preston **Edited for Community Guidelines**refered to a "small job" of maybe $100 or $150 to try out a client and in his context, he is right.  Its a small job. He is skilled and not earning minimum wage.  perhaps his hourly income is of that magnitude.

 

In some countries, $100 represents an standard income of a month or two.  Paying for arbitration at $291 with no guarantee of getting it back, is seriously endangering the welfare of a freelancer and his family.  This is no joke and I don't think you have taken it at all seriously.

 

One last comment - the town that Upwork has its HQ in : the median income is $34,000 per annum.  Everything in its context. 

 

 

 

 

Latest Articles
Featured Topics
Learning Paths