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This is more of a rant...

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Community Guru
Setu M Member Since: Jan 26, 2014
31 of 49
@ Tony,
If I am not business minded or brave enough to strike out on my own, thereby changing the status of myself and others; should I not strike out against what I consider exploitation?

@John,
No problem. Knowledge is power.

@ Lyam,
Next time someone here spouts air about clients should have the right to scream "PHILLIPINOS ONLY APPLY" - you can tell them they're dead wrong.
---- easy like Sunday morning ----
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Community Guru
Tony H Member Since: Nov 10, 2011
32 of 49

Setu,

 

Of course! But... just make sure you help those who ask for it, because a blanket rule may unintentially hurt those who won't speak up for themselves. They don't speak up because for them, this IS their current best option. They have the power to find income in other ways. This is their choice.

 

----

 

For those who complain because the lower rates won't work for them.. they need to rethink this market. This place is an easy way to find work. We sit back and let the clients come to us - and then fight for them. An aggressive freelancer will go find their clients and make some calls. If we choose the easy route we have no right to complain about it. It is what it is.

 

My perspective is different than most. I believe these micro jobs are a gift to the international community. It helps level the playing field and spreads the wealth. It gives people with little experience or money a chance to start their own self employed dream, and it provides micro jobs to those who's own country has nothing left to offer. It removes the borders and the industry matures we'll find that the average wage for any given job will be drastically lower than what the priviliaged are used to. It's a real world wake up call. The bigger this industry becomes the more socialist the world will become. The world is in a huge imbalance right now, and people are going to fight to keep it that way.

 

If you want to fight exploitation, then teach those who feel exploited how to earn more. Don't make a rule that free's a few and punished many. It's not up to us or anyone else to decide who should earn what.

 

It's all a matter opinions. There is no solution that will make everyone happy.

 

 

 

 

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Community Guru
Suzanne N Member Since: Aug 15, 2012
33 of 49

@Tony H wrote:

 

 

If you want to fight exploitation, then teach those who feel exploited how to earn more. Don't make a rule that free's a few and punished many. It's not up to us or anyone else to decide who should earn what.

 

It's all a matter opinions. There is no solution that will make everyone happy.

 

 

 

 


 Tony,

 

I agree here with you. The way to fight exploitation is to teach those who are charging lower rates that they are worth more. I have done this with several folks in the forum. I don't care where they are from, if they have a special talent I have spoke up and told them to raise their rates and hold their heads high. If they have something that someone wants they can earn it. They don't have to settle for $3.00 an hour. 

 

I think the thing is we can all sit back and scream exploitation but how many are willing to actually look at someone's profile that posts in the forum and says please give me advise without being rude.

 

I for one prefer to give positive critism and try to encourge that no matter where they are from that they are worth more and don't let anyone tell them anything else.

 

If you are from China, US or Sinapore, or anywhere else in the world. If you have great skills don't settle for less. Respect yourself and charge more. You are worth it. You will be surprised that someone will hire you at that rate you are charging that is more then someone from your country.

 

I have an old saying, 'You can only be taken advantage of if you allow someone to take advantage of you"

 

So don't sell yourself cheap. Those who exploit will go away if those who allow them to exploit stop allowing it.

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Community Guru
Setu M Member Since: Jan 26, 2014
34 of 49

I will be clear

 

@ Tony,

I will never accept any explanation, logic, model or vice, that contains similar argument. That is not how I was built.

"I believe these micro jobs are a gift to the international community. It helps level the playing field and spreads the wealth. It gives people with little experience or money a chance to start their own self employed dream, and it provides micro jobs to those who's own country has nothing left to offer."

When one starts to rationalize exploitation, the line has already been crossed.

 

@ Tony, @ Suzanne,

Education changes the future, in as much as Laws shapes the future. Therefore a teacher and a lawyer can achieve the same goal by different means depending on what the circumstance allows. I have chosen the latter approach to see what can be changed, but I have also employed the former on a daily basis.

 

The pen is usually a more effective means of change, compared to strength in numbers. However both methods will complement each other. There are some who will never lift a finger to liberate themselves, even after being empowered. Therefore, having the system change to protect these persons is also a valid way to accomplish the same goal.

---- easy like Sunday morning ----
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Community Guru
Preston H Member Since: Nov 24, 2014
35 of 49
The Law is a cruel taskmaster which is too easily abused and turned against us.

If you need a law to prevent you from being racist or exploitative, then you are, by definition, racist and exploitative.

The more a society depends on laws to force its citizens to behave properly, the less moral that society actually is.
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Community Guru
Setu M Member Since: Jan 26, 2014
36 of 49

Since I cannot change peoples nature, I'd rather be protected by the law.

And I was not referring to laws of the land. We are discussing common practices on the platform.

---- easy like Sunday morning ----
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Community Guru
Preston H Member Since: Nov 24, 2014
37 of 49
Let me be very clear about my position:

Clients should be allowed to express a preference for contractors based on where they live. Where a person lives is not the same as national origin.

If there was a law preventing such, the law would be wrong. There is a difference between what is moral and what is legal. There are many things that you and I would NEVER do, but which should remain legal, just as there many legal things you and I do which other people find reprehensible.

It should be up to Upwork, and nobody else, to decide if specifying geographic preference is allowable or not. I believe any other stance is anti-libertarian.
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Community Guru
Setu M Member Since: Jan 26, 2014
38 of 49

Since you missed this part of he discussion

 

  • Job posts should not express any preference or otherwise discriminate on the basis of race, religion, color, national origin, ancestry, physical or mental disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, sex, gender, gender identity, gender expression, age, sexual orientation, military/veteran status or any basis protected by applicable law.
---- easy like Sunday morning ----
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Community Guru
Ramon B Member Since: Jan 11, 2015
39 of 49

This 'debate' reminds me of America's  Fox news. There's one dominant narrative, and any opinion to the contrary will soon disappear as having fallen foul of some arbitrarily enforced guidelines, that, strangely, some people never seem to fall foul of.

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Community Guru
Tony H Member Since: Nov 10, 2011
40 of 49

Here's my thoughts on what Upwork could do for now, without making people angry.

 

In the first image, you will see a screenshot of what a client sees while creating a new job posting. The rate recommendation (beginner, intermediate, expert) changes according to the position selected from the drop-down menu.

 

The education around this recommendation is non-existant and for anyone who hasn't played aropund to see how Upwork works... they would not give it any consideration that the suggested rate actually does mean something.

 

Click here to see what the client sees:

http://postimg.org/image/6ix6zm3f3/

 

The client currently has NO obligation to actually hire someone within or above that suggested rate. This is a fault in my opinion. The client should be required to hire for at least the lowest price within the range and without an upper limit.

 

 

Here's an idea I had. Click this secoind link for another visual:

http://postimg.org/image/qqrrh1ffh/

 

In this image you will see an idea to publically show the suggested rate displayed when the client created the job posting. This way, freelancers know what the position is actually worth and where to start bidding. Again, I do not believe a client should be able to hire for less. It's transparent from both sides.

 

On the right, a client version of the JS score... OR... add another metric to client stats, showing the average hiring rate vs the industry standard (the range they selected while creating the post).

 

If we see a client has a hiring rate average of -60% below the 'acceptable' rate, then freelancers will avoid them. it would be a badge of honor, sort of speak, for clients to proudly display they are 'fair' employers. We'd be surprised at the number of clients who mean well, but just don't know better. It may encourage honest clients who just can't afford to pay North American wages, to increase their rates.

 

It might help put an end to clients who actually DO exploit people fairly quickly, as freelancers will stop applying.

 

Setu, you and I are on the same page. We just don't agree on where to draw the line or how to go about fixing the problem. Which is good... because if everyone agreed all the time, nothing would ever improve.

 

So... my challenge to anyone who actually cares, is to keep the opinion debate to a minimum and work together on a solution.

 

Who knows... maybe Upwork will actually listen if it's sensible and makes for good business. After all, they need to consider a return on investor's investments first and foremost. Being nice or fair doesn't always fit into a full blown capitalist model.

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