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amt17
Community Member

Time tracker violates NDA

I am working with a new client who sent me a friendly message asking me not to upload screenshots of my work as it violates the NDA.

 

The issue is that:

 

1. The freelancer needs the hourly time protection to ensure they get paid

2. The client needs the NDA to be adhered to

 

Upwork does not offer any feature thing that combines those two and it is a legit problem for both freelancer and client.

 

I am not looking for alternatives to the time tracker i.e. manually entered time or fixed fee contract suggestions - I'm looking for possible measures on part of Upwork that can satisfy the client's need for strict confidentiality and protecting the freelancer at the same time.

 

25 REPLIES 25
VladimirG
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Annette,

 

I understand the nature of your request. However, I'd like to point out that billing on Hourly contracts and Hourly Payment Protection (subsequent dispute process as well) are based on the screenshots that are randomly taken within 10-minute segments, as proof of freelancer activity. 

As you already mentioned, if you work with sensitive data and your client/NDA requires you not to take screenshots as part of your work process, you can consider using Fixed-Price contracts and benefiting from Fixed-Price Payment Protection or adding manual time on an Hourly contract, which doesn't qualify for payment protection.

~ Vladimir
Upwork
ptezi
Community Member

Hello Annette,

 

As your contract is on hourly basis and your client dosent want you to upload screenshot, one thing you can do is Ask your Client to Enable manual hours on your contract. 

 

By enabeling Manual hours you can manually add your working hours without uploading any screenshots.

 

Please check the sample screenshot

petra_r
Community Member


Puneet S wrote:

 

As your contract is on hourly basis and your client dosent want you to upload screenshot, one thing you can do is Ask your Client to Enable manual hours on your contract. 

 


Which part of "I am not looking for alternatives to the time tracker i.e. manually entered time or fixed fee contract suggestions -" did you fail to comprehend?

 

Annette not only knows perfectly well what manual time is, she specifically said that this is not what she is talking about.

amt17
Community Member

I have read past replies to others who have posted about this dilemma. I have also suggested to Upwork on previous occasions (the screenshot contained a password which is probably a severe privacy violation!) that it should be possible to blur/black out sensitive information on screenshots before they are uploaded - currently you can't even review the screenshot before it's uploaded, only delete it after the fact (and with it, the time worked)!

 

When a client uses terms as "outrageously intrusive" and doesn't want work under a NDA done with screenshots, then I think it's time for Upwork to listen and consider other measures that work in favour of both client, freelancer - and of course, Upwork.

 

I really like the protection of hourly contracts - why on earth would you recommend that I give that up? As far as I can see this is an issue that needs to be solved by Upwork - not by the freelancer working on less favourable terms.

VladimirG
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Annette,

 

I understand what you're proposing and invite you to share a suggestion on how you'd structure the time logging process that would entail being able to clearly show proof of freelancers' activity without using screenshots.

Regarding the option to alter screenshots, blurring or blocking parts of the screenshot/ the entire screenshot defeats their purpose and would open up the process to potential abuse. Our team has considered different options and is open to reviewing new suggestions proposed by our users.

~ Vladimir
Upwork

I  see both points of view. Frankly in cases like this I (personally) do just use manual time and it probably isn't an issue all that often.

The payment protection is married (with no chance of a divorce, ever) to screenshots on Upwork.


So all we can do is work around it (manual time / fixed rate)


Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Annette,

 

I understand what you're proposing and invite you to share a suggestion on how you'd structure the time logging process that would entail being able to clearly show proof of freelancers' activity without using screenshots.


You could simply offer clients the option of foregoing the benefits of having screenshots. Clients could choose this option if they put a higher priority on privacy than on being able to check up on the freelancer's use of time (which I suspect many clients don't do anyway).


Richard W wrote:

Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Annette,

 

I understand what you're proposing and invite you to share a suggestion on how you'd structure the time logging process that would entail being able to clearly show proof of freelancers' activity without using screenshots.


You could simply offer clients the option of foregoing the benefits of having screenshots. Clients could choose this option if they put a higher priority on privacy than on being able to check up on the freelancer's use of time (which I suspect many clients don't do anyway).


The screenshots are not so much for the client's benefit, they are the very basis of the hourly protection, so if a client does not pay, Upwork does.

 

I doubt Upwork would forgo the screenshot and still offer to potentially pay out thousands with no screenshots.

 

tlbp
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Richard W wrote:

Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Annette,

 

I understand what you're proposing and invite you to share a suggestion on how you'd structure the time logging process that would entail being able to clearly show proof of freelancers' activity without using screenshots.


You could simply offer clients the option of foregoing the benefits of having screenshots. Clients could choose this option if they put a higher priority on privacy than on being able to check up on the freelancer's use of time (which I suspect many clients don't do anyway).


The screenshots are not so much for the client's benefit, they are the very basis of the hourly protection, so if a client does not pay, Upwork does.

 

I doubt Upwork would forgo the screenshot and still offer to potentially pay out thousands with no screenshots.

 


Yes. Not being able to bill the hours isn't the issue, the client can authorize manual and avoid screenshots. The issue is the freelancer who wants the benefits of third-party Upwork's payment protection which conditions protection of the provision of screenshots.

 

This protection is something outside the relationship between the client and the freelancer though. It is not something fundamental to the agreement between the client and the freelancer. So, the most likely solution is that if a client doesn't want screenshots, the freelancer must choose whether to take the risk of working without the payment protection safety net. 



Petra R wrote:

Richard W wrote:


You could simply offer clients the option of foregoing the benefits of having screenshots. Clients could choose this option if they put a higher priority on privacy than on being able to check up on the freelancer's use of time (which I suspect many clients don't do anyway).


The screenshots are not so much for the client's benefit, they are the very basis of the hourly protection, so if a client does not pay, Upwork does.

 

I doubt Upwork would forgo the screenshot and still offer to potentially pay out thousands with no screenshots.

 


Good point. I failed to consider that the payment guarantee means it's also Upwork's money on the line, and not just the client's.

You are the voice of reason, Richard.

 

In every decision it makes, Upwork can serve its own interests, clients' interests or freelancers' interests. It will rarely serve all three equally well.

 

If a client specifically agrees to be as on the hook for payment with no screenshots as they are on the hook (by default) for payments with screenshots, that should be a decision Upwork can live with. I suppose the freelancer could complain about it, but I don't know why they would.

 

This could be a special service outside the norm, so Upwork could have different rules for it, such as charging the client an additional fee, requiring the client to place a fully funded deposit the amount of which the freelancers can't bill beyond before mor funding is provided by the clients, etc.

 

Upwork could figure it out if it really wanted to. Not solving it will only force highly privacy-sensitive clients to search for freelancers elsewhere. And maybe even cause clients to move payment for their freelancers' work time off Upwork (knowing this is a clear violation of Upwork's Terms of Service).

There is probably no perfect solution for this problem, but Upwork doesn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough in other areas of its rules and functionality.

 

Surely, the minds that brought us the JSS algorithm could think of a solution to solve this uncommon problem.


Will L wrote:

There is probably no perfect solution for this problem, but Upwork doesn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough in other areas of its rules and functionality.

 

Surely, the minds that brought us the JSS algorithm could think of a solution to solve this uncommon problem.


Are you absolutely sure that you want this?

I feel incredibly stupid for never even considering this issue before, since I work on a lot of highly sensitive pitches and proposals involving NDAs. I didn't realize that the screenshots in our work diaries could be seen publicly - can't they be set to private?

Hi Christine,

 

To clarify, only freelancer, client and Upwork can access the Work Diary and the information contained in it (including screenshots) is not available publicly.

~ Vladimir
Upwork

It doesn't concern me, Reinier.

 

I adhere to the terms of the NDAs I sign with my clients. That is my only obligation.

 

Whether clients believe Upwork is violating their privacy or confidentiality in any way is between them and Upwork.

 

There may already be provisions in the agreements Upwork requires clients to agree to that cover the issue of privacy and confidentiality, in which case additional arrangements are not necessary. I'd be surprised if this is not the case.


Will L wrote:

Whether clients believe Upwork is violating their privacy or confidentiality in any way is between them and Upwork.

 

There may already be provisions in the agreements Upwork requires clients to agree to that cover the issue of privacy and confidentiality, in which case additional arrangements are not necessary. I'd be surprised if this is not the case.


Yes, I would be surprised as well, and I'm reassured by Vladimir's response. My clients usually give me work in the first place by uploading their documents to the message board, so presumably Upwork's employees could access the information even without screen shots being captured. But Vladimir, perhaps you could specifically address Will's point if it will help to reassure the OP's client?

But you are the one exposing the material to view by unauthorized persons by turning on the time tracker. It's not a matter of "believing" Upwork is violating anything. If you have agreed to not make the content visible to others and you turn on the time tracker, you have done that. The violation is yours, unless the client has explicitly agreed to it. And, in some circumstances (such as HIPAA-protected materials), the client doesn't even have the authority to allow it. 

amt17
Community Member


Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Annette,

 

I understand what you're proposing and invite you to share a suggestion on how you'd structure the time logging process that would entail being able to clearly show proof of freelancers' activity without using screenshots.



I don't believe it is up to me to solve Upwork's infrastructure.

 

Besides my earlier suggestion was rejected based on fear of abuse and as long as that is a bigger concern than observing confidentiality and privacy, I guess that Upwork will do absolutely nothing about it although the time tracker renders NDAs worthless.

 

petra_r
Community Member


Annette E wrote:
, I guess that Upwork will do absolutely nothing about it although the time tracker renders NDAs worthless.


I would not say the tracker renders any and all NDAs worthless. The screenshots can only be seen by client and freelancer and Upwork while the contract is active, and by the client and Upwork once closed.

Work is sent via messages or via a contract all the time, which is accessed by the same parties.

There is (unless you work in a rubber cell by hand and deliver work in person) no way to work without someone somewhere having access to something...

 

I've worked under one of the most incredibly restrictive NDAs (complete with ID verification and 3rd party criminal & background check) known to mankind, accessing very secret "stuff"(I cannot mention cause secret) and logged thousands of hours doing so. Virtually all those thousands of hours were tracked.

 

I get that you have encountered a client who is not happy and yes, it is a pain, but such clients (who are, in the overall scheme of things, rare) can post their jobs as fixed price. Personally (and that does not mean anyone else should do what I do) I'd just work manual time (but I am not risk-adverse anyway) or fixed rate.

I KNOW you said you don't want that suggestion and it wasn't a suggestion, just what I would do.


Petra R wrote:

Work is sent via messages or via a contract all the time, which is accessed by the same parties.

There is (unless you work in a rubber cell by hand and deliver work in person) no way to work without someone somewhere having access to something...


Yes, good point. I once worked on a super-mega-top-secret project; I was required to go to the client's office, had my bag searched and my phone taken away, then was fingerprinted, photographed, and had to read and sign multiple agreements. Then I was taken to a private room to work on a computer that had no Internet access. Needless to say, there's no way that this client would have chosen to work with me remotely. Even without screen captures being taken, a remote client has no way of knowing whether your Internet connection is secure, or what kind of anti-hacking software you've got on your computer, or whether you're working in a Starbucks with a barrista looking over your shoulder. By choosing to work with a freelancer via Upwork, they do need to give up some measure of control, no matter what.

hodgesh
Community Member

What about asking the client to pay by bonus, before the work is completed (which is an even more secure kind of payment protection), based on estimated hours? I don't know much about how bonuses work. And this solution requires a trusting client.

 

Ideally, both the freelancer and the client would consider that an hourly project will involve screenshots of sensitive material before they agree to a contract. I'm not convinced that catering to this use case is Upwork's responsibility—but it might help Upwork earn money.

decasal
Community Member

One option, although not ideal - UpWork keeps time in 10 min increments. For the 10 min increments that have confidential information in them, I do manual time.  That's a lot of timekeeping, but, UpWork needs to have their Legal Team recognize these issues the Support Team receives & offer the appropriate alternatives that not only protect the client's confidential documents, but the freelancer working with them AND UpWork.  This is a forward-thinking approach that affects not only freelancer earnings but UpWork earnings.  I would like these issues brought to the attention of UpWork's legal team and their executive management........so the issues get addressed and fixed.

I can't see why Upwork would be required to offer an alternative where they pay you out of their own pocket without any evidence that you were working on the client's project during that time. 

 

There really is no problem. Upwork offers payment protection in a narrow set of circumstances where they feel they have sufficient evidence. The many freelancers who can't or choose not to work in a way that doesn't provide that evidence work without payment protection--in other words, like they would with freelance clients in most other circumstances. 

While your feedback is appreciated and important to know, I can say a freelancer on an hourly contract CAN prove who they worked for, when they worked for them and what they worked on, without timetracker.


I still think a plausible alternative is needed to guarantee pay to freelancers for client jobs involving NDAs, HIPAA and the Timetracker screenshots.


Also, I had a client who wanted an NDA, and did not want timetracker to capture screen shots. I agreed to those terms and after several months of working for the client under an hourly contract his payment method failed.  Numerous contacts with the client failed to produce a result. Because of that I was cheated out of pay for one week, and, I could prove what I worked on to earn that money. Months later I still have not received the money I'm owed.


UpWork Support confirmed to me they would not charge the new credit card the client has on file to pay me for the unpaid week, but they did reactivate the client's UpWork contract.


I think UpWork could do better to support the freelancers who also make them money, especially under these circumstances.


Thank you.

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