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duskoavramovski
Community Member

Tragedy of a client instead 700$ they paid 50$ and now are asking for the 60$ in escrow !!!

At first it was very positive but pretty soon I realized I was working with people who are completely unaware if I am sleeping, or at work although I told them I was. Ex. I write to them around midnight that I finished for today with the progress I made sending them basic images of the work and before I woke up in the morning, I am reading on Skype message from my client "Hey bro any update on the work?"

I opened my eyes at 7 and saw the message at 7:01 , and 7 hours before I told him I was going to sleep.
I mean what the ?!?!?!?!

And that's not the issue.

This client wanted me to do a 3D model of a car that on the front looks like Ferrari FXX-K and on the rear like Koenigsegg - Jesko and I did that.

 

The work was agreed to be put in two milestones. First milestone was supposed to be 700$ for the car and the second one afterwards after the car is finished, an animation of 1 minute in which the price is 20$ per second for render.

 

However they sent 1st milestone 50$ and once I finished with the car and sent them to show some basic photos of it for 2nd milestone including even interior , they chose to close the contract because "their management" told them to based on the bad render images , which actually weren't renders at all - simply they were basic photos of the car progress because we were still working on milestone - completing the car. They were aware of it.

 

If they have said that the car is bad or that they are not satisfied with the progress and closed it, I would have understood. However saying the renders were bad, without actually seeing render, that looks to me like nothing else but pure fraud.

 

Not only I was lied about the financials where instead 700$ I only got 50$, now they want the money in the escrow 60$ to be given back to them so that is why I would like to file this dispute. Further more I would like to charge them for 700$ if somehow possible.

And the irony of this all, they gave me 3.85 rating.

How to protect myself against these clients who obviously hurt my rating because of no fault of my own? UpWork has to do something with these ratings and these clients. This is outrageous.  Completely unserious and uncompetent clients. 

59 REPLIES 59
petra_r
Community Member

Why did you accept the job if you had agreed a $ 700 milestone and only $ 50 was funded?

 

You can only dispute what's in Escrow (the $ 60.)

 

You willingly kissed the $ 700 Goodbye agreeing to the terms you agreed on.

 

 

Because he would have sent the others later?


Dusko A wrote:

Because he would have sent the others later?


They can say all they want, but the only thing that matters is what's actually put in escrow. Or to phrase it another way, "Money talks, BS walks."

I always learnt best when I felt it on my skin. Next time will know better

Now since the UpWork has lots of criteria by which ranks the freelancers, what will be now taken into consideration regarding my rating?

Does their competely uncompetent rating on me will be of any value to UpWork or ignored like it should be?

 

[EDIT] They have absolutely NO CLUE of the work at hand. No knowledge nothing. How they can value me and how to avoid that?

I made allowance for them to change the rating. And asked them to. Because I dont deserve that 3.85. I deserve 5.0 because I did all that was asked and withing the deadlines for which they put actualy 2.0. Hilarious.

Can they make changes or I have to submit feedback so they can reaply it again? My question is to be clearer, can they change their feedback without me giving any feedback to them? Because I have every intention of giving them what they deserve, 1.0 and nice comment for future freelancers to be sure to avoid them.


I please for advice, hint and help. I cannot allow such people to put me down.


Dusko A wrote:


Can they make changes or I have to submit feedback so they can reaply it again? My question is to be clearer, can they change their feedback without me giving any feedback to them?


If you can see their feedback it must be too late for you to leave feedback, either because you have already left feedback or because 14 days have passed.

 

If you have allowed them to change feedback, they can, but what makes you think they will?

 

Do you have your top rated perk available, because you'll need it to avoid dropping below 90%

 

They closed the contract today, and after allowing them to change the feedback, have no clue was it because of that or not, but I am able to see their rating left on the work I did.

Also I do have my top rating badge however what are the perks that I have? I have no clue about it. I had one work removed again because of completely unreasonable client who for 20$ took my soul out and requested things he event did not understood. So I used my joker on that one.

I have respond to feedback and to the request for escrow, went on that and later on I saw the rating they left, maybe it was because of escrow have no idea. But i did saw it.

Stop flapping.

Take a nice, long, deep breath.

 

Did you use what you call your "joker" (you mean your top rated perk and I am pretty certain I have explained that to you before at some point) more than 3 months and 10 contracts ago?

 

 

I got email where it is asked for begin of mediation to provide more details etc and if that doesnt enable UpWork to reach decision that it might be moved to third party arbitration which costs  875$

What should I do?


Dusko A wrote:

I got email where it is asked for begin of mediation to provide more details etc and if that doesnt enable UpWork to reach decision that it might be moved to third party arbitration which costs  875$

What should I do?


Whenever Upwork asks you for information, you should provide exactly the information asked for, and no more. Do not worry about Upwork's "reach[ing a] decision." (That's not exactly what they do.) But it doesn't matter: just answer their questions, honestly and simply, and not going beyond their scope. Do not make an argument, or state your case. Just provide the requested details.

Don't worry about arbitration unless and until you are:

  • dissatisfied with the final outcome of mediation
  • are told by Upwork that arbitration is your only recourse.

At that point, if you decide to go ahead with arbitration, you, Upwork, and the client will each put up a third of the cost. Others more informed will be along shortly to tell you what to expect after that, including if the client fails to pony up, which I believe in poker terms is the equivalent of folding.


Dusko A wrote:

I made allowance for them to change the rating. And asked them to. Because I dont deserve that 3.85. I deserve 5.0 because I did all that was asked and withing the deadlines for which they put actualy 2.0. Hilarious.

Can they make changes or I have to submit feedback so they can reaply it again? My question is to be clearer, can they change their feedback without me giving any feedback to them? Because I have every intention of giving them what they deserve, 1.0 and nice comment for future freelancers to be sure to avoid them.


I please for advice, hint and help. I cannot allow such people to put me down.


That was probably a big mistake. They can still rate you worse than they did originally. Especially if they see here that you are planning to rate them 1s.

Since they asked me if there is any update, several times, if I several times told them I was either on work or sleeping and I wont be abl to work in the next 7-8  hours, they are neither that inteligent to come here and find this

And what is more UpWork has to have an algorithm where it will detect issues like these and wouldnt rate their rating at all. I worked my a... off for this and this happens? No no wont allow it may this earth go upside down

I understand your frustration but Upwork has a lot of tutorials on how to avoid trash clients like these. You are top rated so you probably read them before but forgot a few things. I recommend to re-read the freelancer tutorials and webinars in order to avoid a similar situation in the future.

 

1. NEVER accept a contract that isn't fully funded, that was your first mistake. Take your time to revise the contract terms and check if all milestones are funded. 

2. If possible, try to keep communication with the client via Upwork messages instead of skype. 

 

kat303
Community Member

How to protect myself against these clients who obviously hurt my rating because of no fault of my own? UpWork has to do something with these ratings and these clients.

 

No, Upwork doesn't have to do something with these clients YOU do. The way you protect yourself is to Not start working until escrow is FULLY funded either for the entire job or for each milestone as they come up.  You set up milestones and fund them in relationship to the amount of work that need to be done (as a fraction of the entire job) and you don't start work until that full amount is funded or, you just do work that is equal to the amount that's funded. And not only do you not start working on that 1st milestone if it's not fully funded you certainly do not start work on the 2nd (or any other milestones) and send them the work for that 2nd milestone. 

 

Since you're top rated and have used that top rated perk you can use it to delete the feedback from your profile as long as 10 jobs or 3 months have passed since you last used it. 

 

You can file a dispute, and take it all the way up to arbitration for the amount of money still in escrow. But all you'll get if it's determined that the escrow funds should be returned to you, is what ever is in escrow. It costs $291 to go into arbitration for both the client and freelancer (you) If the client doesn't pay the fee, you get the $291 back plus what's in escrow. Only you can decide what's best at this point. 

That is all okay and I will know better for the future.

So If I understood correctly, it will cost me 291$ to have UpWork to decide if I win those 60$ - meaning I will have to pay 291$ if I submit for - refusal of returning funds to the client. So UpWork can set court on it?



Dusko A wrote:

That is all okay and I will know better for the future.

So If I understood correctly, it will cost me 291$ to have UpWork to decide if I win those 60$ - meaning I will have to pay 291$ if I submit for - refusal of returning funds to the client. So UpWork can set court on it?



Yes, you would have to pay $291 that you would not get back even if you win. But, it's not to Upwork. Upwork can't make that decision. The money goes to an outside arbitrator, which is like a privately hired judge. The actual cost is much higher--the client and Upwork also each pay $291.


Dusko A wrote:

So If I understood correctly, it will cost me 291$ to have UpWork to decide if I win those 60$ - meaning I will have to pay 291$ if I submit for - refusal of returning funds to the client.


NO! Not necessarily at all.

Only if mediation fails and the client also pays $ 291. Otherwise, you get your$ 291 back and whatever was in escrow.

 

 

Okay I wont risk it 291 for 60 dollars. The hell with it. I earned 10 times more to bother about it. What I cannot understand is , I close 5 contracts with 5.0 and idiot like this comes along and all goes to hell.

Next time I will most certainly know better.

Speaking of the top rated perk, I have asked for a contract to be removed on Nov 2018 and since then I had around 14 contracts.


Dusko A wrote:

Okay I wont risk it 291 for 60 dollars.


You don't have to. That is necessary only if mediation fails. Mediation is free.

 


Dusko A wrote:


Speaking of the top rated perk, I have asked for a contract to be removed on Nov 2018 and since then I had around 14 contracts.


Then you can see what impact this contract has on your JSS and remove it if necessary.

Just one question. Since I have allowed client feedback to change his review, can he change it before I give feedback or I must send feedback and then he can change his?


Dusko A wrote:
Just one question. Since I have allowed client feedback to change his review, can he change it before I give feedback or I must send feedback and then he can change his?

I am at a loss how you can see the client's feedback and how it can be publicly visible when the contract was closed yesterday and you have not left feedback yet. This is supposed to be impossible.

 

Does the client have ANY intention of changing the feedback? Why would the client have any intention of changing the feedback?

You haven't made some sort of deal that you agree to the refund and/or leave positive feedback if the client changes feedback?

 

You do understand that only the public feedback can be changed, the private feedback (which is what affects your JSS) can not be changed.

 

I am at loss as well. All I know is that I got the notification that he ended the contract. You questioned and althought I answered, once more so you can be sure - he ended the contract yesterday, I suppose around 3/4 o'clock GMT+2 time. Then I opened the contract and there was "give feedback to freelancer" and "respond to request", I went to 2nd one. and for "I do not approve it" , and while I was thinking what to write I said to myself, let's check the terms & settings in the contract itself so to be sure how to approach this. What has been said, agreed & done. 

There I was able to see the rating he has left me. It stood that  - I can give feedback to him. Below , to answer on his feedback on me (thats where I could see the 4 stars before I went on my profile amazed that I could see it before hand, to see he put 3.85) 

I have said nothing of this to him, just politely asked him if he can give me best ratings, because I deserved them, because although I did my job they closed it out of nowhere based on false assumptions which is not my fault, and then allowed him to do the change. Now I see I cannot go back and take that decision back. I have never before allowed someone to change his feedback. 

Now he says that before he put's feedback, I should put feedback on him, otherwise he wasn't allowed to. That is what I am asking, is that true or he is just trying to trick me one more time? This has been very tiring and quite stressful.  


Dusko A wrote:

I am at loss as well. All I know is that I got the notification that he ended the contract. You questioned and althought I answered, once more so you can be sure - he ended the contract yesterday, I suppose around 3/4 o'clock GMT+2 time. Then I opened the contract and there was "give feedback to freelancer" and "respond to request", I went to 2nd one. and for "I do not approve it" , and while I was thinking what to write I said to myself, let's check the terms & settings in the contract itself so to be sure how to approach this. What has been said, agreed & done. 

There I was able to see the rating he has left me. It stood that  - I can give feedback to him.


To be honest, if the above is accurate (and I have no reason to believe that it isn't) it looks like this was an Upwork glitch.

 

In my opinion the fact that you were able to see the client's feedback before leaving yours means the double blindnature of the whole thing is out of the window and everything that comes afterwards (your feedback to the client or the client changing theirs) is now tainted.

 

I'm going to flag this post so a mod can get it looked into because there is no "correct" outcome if what you are saying is accurate.

 

I have been honest and said chronologicly how it was, I haven't yet made any decision how to continue, I still have 4-5 days before I have to react on it. Please look into it. 

For the time being can you tell me what should I do? I don't want any intereference or to have problems with UpWork that could result in much bigger consequences, I have no idea really. 

I have told straightforward and how it basicaly was and still is, I can still see their review and the details of how he rated me, ex. 2.0 for deadline which is hilarious, I have made into the deadline 4 days earlier. The deadline to deliver the car was today. I got the contract 14 days ago the deadline was 14 days or two weeks. It makes no sense whatsoever that either but they did it anyway. I guess they are used to changing their minds everyday no matter what they have said or agreed. Really bad experience.   

g_vasilevski
Retired Team Member
Retired Team Member

Hi Petra and Dusko,

 

Just to confirm that Dusko is correct and is able to view his client feedback. I will escalate this to our engineering team to investigate it further and take proper actions so that it is resolved as soon as possible. Thank you.

~ Goran
Upwork

What should I do? I have 4-5 days before I need to react to their feedback, and I have every intent to do so. How will I be notified, through this community or just email - so to know what to look out for. 


Dusko A wrote:

What should I do? I have 4-5 days before I need to react to their feedback, and I have every intent to do so.


Dusko, do nothing for the time being as far as feedback is concerned.

 

Personally, I would try to resolve the conflict with the client to see if the project can be completed. I would also push Upwork for the feedback  (public and private) on both sides to be deleted and npot counted because the double blind system failed.

The contract cannot be completed because it is already ended and it is impossible to resolve things with people who don't have knowledge, on which they can base their expectations, so they cannot understand really what I can change or do better. They canceled the project because renders were bad - and that was impossible - because I never did serious renders and no one ever told me to. They say repeatedly "their management told them to" - to close it. That is fine. What is not fine is their english, communication and way of working. We were still working on the car build and they went from step 1 suddenly to step 10. Really makes no sense at all.  

I found it appaling that in three or four ocassions it happened that althought I told them that in the next 8 hours I would be either sleeping or I am at work, they kept asking in meantime "is there any update?" ?! How it can have any update when only 8 hours before I told you that for the next 8 hours I won't be available? I am at loss at words as well to explain their way of communicating and understanding too. It's like they live on other planet. I tell them Ill be sleeping for 8 hours and I wake up to see they asked - is there any update... what am i, Supermen to sleep and work? It seems they thought I am or can be.  

The first time that happened , I knew I will have problems with them. And it happened. 

 

So what you say, is for me to wait for 3-4 days ? Because the other sentence where you said that I should (and I will most certainly do that) push the contract both publically and privately as not counted - can only happen only after I leave feedback on them. Should I leave feedback to them now and contact UpWork for removal of the contract? 

I apologize for the longevity of this, but I think we are almost finished.

 

[EDIT] What will happen with my profile? Should I expect anything or UpWork staff are just going to check and correct and all goes smooth without any change? I am asking because I rarely open emails, should I expect some message, email on behalf of this glitch or nothing? 


Dusko A wrote:

 

So what you say, is for me to wait for 3-4 days ? Because the other sentence where you said that I should (and I will most certainly do that) push the contract both publically and privately as not counted - can only happen only after I leave feedback on them. Should I leave feedback to them now and contact UpWork for removal of the contract? 


Well, here is the rub, you know:

 

If you leave (honest) feedback for the client that feedback won't be great. Your client will see it, you have enabled the client to change feedback - that means they can change it down as well as up. This obviously won't matter if you use your perk and have it removed. It's all a bit of a mess.

 

The other issue is the fact that the JSS will update on Sunday, so you may want to take care of this today to prevent being below 90% and without your top rated badge for 2 weeks...

 

Is the dispute still running?

 

 

 

Okay so regardless of the issue with the glitch I am free to submit my review. I just wanted to be sure I play according UpWork best guidance for this glitch to be sorted, or anyhow if I may interefere with that to avoid. If you understood my point.

Speaking of the dispute, yes, I am yet about to give them a feedback and I will write honest one.

I just don't know should I deny the escrow request or allow it, those 291$ confuse me.
If i deny the request UpWork will review this dispute. Will they charge me 291$ for it or anytime afterwards or can I chose should they do so or it is automatically is what I am asking


Dusko A wrote:


I just don't know should I deny the escrow request or allow it, those 291$ confuse me.
If i deny the request UpWork will review this dispute. Will they charge me 291$ for it or anytime afterwards or can I chose should they do so or it is automatically is what I am asking


If you reject the request to return the escrow funds, a dispute will start. There will be an Upwork mediator to try and get some mutually acceptable solution (It is also possible that the client will not respond to the dispute, in which case the escrow funds go to you anyway.

 

ONLY if, at the end of the mediation phase, no consensus can be reached, will there even be an OPTION of going to arbitration at $ 291 - It will almost certainly not go that far so you have nothing to lose by carrying on with the dispute right now.

 

They came running on me, since they were both with whom I contacted on Skype (I know that every conversation out of UpWork is not considered , I just want know weather or not this is okay)

The conversation mainly was done on Skype with **Edited for Community Guidelines** who made the contract while on Skype there was another guy too named **Edited for Community Guidelines** who never replied no matter If I wrote a question or instruction so I can deliver the work better.

Now once I wrote what I wrote, they come running asking me to change the rating so I can get the 60 bucks. I am not really bothered about 60 bucks, I will still ask them to be transfered to me, but it is more about principles and the fact they were completely outrageous to work for.

Talking to **Edited for Community Guidelines**, he blocked me after short arrogant speech of his side. "You filed for dispute, nice" , "you change your rating on us and you get 60 bucks" , " do you want the 60 bucks?" kept saying with arrogance. I of course told him my side that it is done and dust. He blocked me when I tried to reason with him once more.

I trashed the contract, anyway they put 1 on me. Hilarious. Nevermind, later in the night came the other guy who never wrote a single thing "Hey bro, if you want the 60 bucks change the rating"

 

For those silly 60 bucks I did a 3D model worth 400$ the very least:

1st) They say they got nothing and it's true - I never send to them any 3D model because they never asked for it

2nd) Even if they did, few images were all they were gonna get for those money

In my view, I earned those 60 bucks and I don't have to do anything anymore.

However in the dispute on UpWork it said that it should be resolved between client and freelancer.

Now I am asking: they ask of me to change their rating so to get these 60 bucks and to finish with the dispute. What should I do? How to act? I am 2 years and 3 months on UpWork, I had never a dispute with anyone and I don't really know how to act on this. What is right what is wrong.

 

 


Dusko A wrote:


Now I am asking: they ask of me to change their rating so to get these 60 bucks and to finish with the dispute. What should I do? How to act? I am 2 years and 3 months on UpWork, I had never a dispute with anyone and I don't really know how to act on this. What is right what is wrong.


1) STOP arguing with those people. Take screenshots of the "We will pay you 60 if you change your rating" because that is feedback extortion and a violation of the terms of service. REPORT THEM! Upwork *WILL* take screenshots into account.

 

2) Have you requested the feedback to be removed yet (using your perk?)  DO IT! Just saw it has been removed. Great.

 

3) Carry on the dispute.

 

 


Petra R wrote:

Dusko A wrote:


Now I am asking: they ask of me to change their rating so to get these 60 bucks and to finish with the dispute. What should I do? How to act? I am 2 years and 3 months on UpWork, I had never a dispute with anyone and I don't really know how to act on this. What is right what is wrong.


1) STOP arguing with those people. Take screenshots of the "We will pay you 60 if you change your rating" because that is feedback extortion and a violation of the terms of service. REPORT THEM! Upwork *WILL* take screenshots into account.

 

2) Have you requested the feedback to be removed yet (using your perk?)  DO IT! Just saw it has been removed. Great.

 

3) Carry on the dispute.

 

 


The feedback is still visible on the job page.

Hi Dusko,

 

Could you please send me a PM with the screenshots where the Client is asking you to change your rating in order to get paid and I'll send a report to the team for investigation?

 

Thank you.

~ Aleksandar
Upwork

Yes sure,

Just to finish one message I am about to sent to him, you will have the whole short conversation

I can send you printscreen and also give you access to my skype if required so you can verify the conversation is authentic and original too.

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