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duskoavramovski
Community Member

Tragedy of a client instead 700$ they paid 50$ and now are asking for the 60$ in escrow !!!

At first it was very positive but pretty soon I realized I was working with people who are completely unaware if I am sleeping, or at work although I told them I was. Ex. I write to them around midnight that I finished for today with the progress I made sending them basic images of the work and before I woke up in the morning, I am reading on Skype message from my client "Hey bro any update on the work?"

I opened my eyes at 7 and saw the message at 7:01 , and 7 hours before I told him I was going to sleep.
I mean what the ?!?!?!?!

And that's not the issue.

This client wanted me to do a 3D model of a car that on the front looks like Ferrari FXX-K and on the rear like Koenigsegg - Jesko and I did that.

 

The work was agreed to be put in two milestones. First milestone was supposed to be 700$ for the car and the second one afterwards after the car is finished, an animation of 1 minute in which the price is 20$ per second for render.

 

However they sent 1st milestone 50$ and once I finished with the car and sent them to show some basic photos of it for 2nd milestone including even interior , they chose to close the contract because "their management" told them to based on the bad render images , which actually weren't renders at all - simply they were basic photos of the car progress because we were still working on milestone - completing the car. They were aware of it.

 

If they have said that the car is bad or that they are not satisfied with the progress and closed it, I would have understood. However saying the renders were bad, without actually seeing render, that looks to me like nothing else but pure fraud.

 

Not only I was lied about the financials where instead 700$ I only got 50$, now they want the money in the escrow 60$ to be given back to them so that is why I would like to file this dispute. Further more I would like to charge them for 700$ if somehow possible.

And the irony of this all, they gave me 3.85 rating.

How to protect myself against these clients who obviously hurt my rating because of no fault of my own? UpWork has to do something with these ratings and these clients. This is outrageous.  Completely unserious and uncompetent clients. 

59 REPLIES 59

Any attempt to link money to feedback is a violation of the terms of service.

 

That said, Dusco, please stop arguing with those people. You are wasting your time.

Just keep the dispute going.

No no I am not arguing with them. Just to let them know I am not that big fool as they might think. Will send the print screen of the conversation to you and Aleksandar in PM just in any case and if required I can give you access to my Skype so you can verify all is authentic.

Hi Dusko,

 

The Client's name and the screenshots will be enough for a report.

 

Thank you.

~ Aleksandar
Upwork

Have you discussed the ToS with the client? Until you received full payment you still own your work:


Upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, the Work Product (except for any Background Technology), including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights in the Work Product (except for any Background Technology), will be the sole and exclusive property of Client, and Client will be deemed to be the author thereof.

We did in the beginning. I sent proposal for milestones 1 and 2 and they have accepted them. Once they activated the work they sent me completely different milestones. At that point I decided to go along with it thinking all will be fine and this is just precaution from their side which seemed to me fair at the  time.

However as time was passing by and the way they reacted I sensed this will happen and that once I sent them the full car which would mean they have to pay the full sum they will go away. At least I havent sent them any 3D model, but only pictures. For those money thats all that they would ever get.  Anyway I was in no way able to change the milestones they sent, the discussion was almost one-sided and i should have instead 60 applied and submited the milestone for 700$. Will know better.

 

Then I will go now and deny their escrow request. Will write as it was and hopefully other freelances in the future will use my experience to chose wisely when they will come along.


Jennifer R wrote:

Have you discussed the ToS with the client? Until you received full payment you still own your work:


Upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, the Work Product (except for any Background Technology), including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights in the Work Product (except for any Background Technology), will be the sole and exclusive property of Client, and Client will be deemed to be the author thereof.


The devil is in the details on this one, however. "Full payment" could be argued to mean the release of all the funds in the escrow. As long as the milestone/project was setup with a certain amount, and that amount was deposited, it would constitute full payment. The freelancer submitting work to that milestone/project could be considered agreeing to that amount. Where the freelancer would still retain rights would be if they released only part of the escrow funds. In that case, it would be clear that the client retains no rights to the work whatsoever.

 

That's why it's important for people to be sure that the actual amount originally agreed upon is in the escrow before beginning any work for a client. If there's a discrepancy, they need to address that first and foremost.


Michael S wrote:

Jennifer R wrote:

Have you discussed the ToS with the client? Until you received full payment you still own your work:


Upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, the Work Product (except for any Background Technology), including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights in the Work Product (except for any Background Technology), will be the sole and exclusive property of Client, and Client will be deemed to be the author thereof.


The devil is in the details on this one, however. "Full payment" could be argued to mean the release of all the funds in the escrow. As long as the milestone/project was setup with a certain amount, and that amount was deposited, it would constitute full payment. The freelancer submitting work to that milestone/project could be considered agreeing to that amount. Where the freelancer would still retain rights would be if they released only part of the escrow funds. In that case, it would be clear that the client retains no rights to the work whatsoever.

 

That's why it's important for people to be sure that the actual amount originally agreed upon is in the escrow before beginning any work for a client. If there's a discrepancy, they need to address that first and foremost.


My definition of "Full payment" is the amount agreed upon in the contract.

 

I do not care if a client splits a job into several milestones. Depending on the milestones and the client I send I might send unfunded work but that is my decision and it is my problem if I don't get paid.

 

 


Jennifer R wrote:

That's why it's important for people to be sure that the actual amount originally agreed upon is in the escrow before beginning any work for a client. If there's a discrepancy, they need to address that first and foremost.


My definition of "Full payment" is the amount agreed upon in the contract.


Not quite. Whatever has been paid for belongs to the client. So If there is a $ 1000 contract for 10 kittens at $ 100 each, and the client and the freelancer work well together for kittens 1 to 4, with the milestones released-  and then they have a falling out because freelancer delivers a puppy for milestone 5 - and client closes the contract asking for escrow funds  (of milestone 5 or more) back, then kittens 1 to 4 belong to the client. Kittens 5 to 10 do not. Puppy belongs to the client if paid for, to the freelancer if the escrow funds are returned.

 

By the above definition (the amount agreed upon in the contract) kittens 1 to 4 would not belong to the client because kittens 5 to 10, which were never delivered, weren't paid for and that would be wrong.


Petra R wrote:

Jennifer R wrote:

That's why it's important for people to be sure that the actual amount originally agreed upon is in the escrow before beginning any work for a client. If there's a discrepancy, they need to address that first and foremost.


My definition of "Full payment" is the amount agreed upon in the contract.


Not quite. Whatever has been paid for belongs to the client. So If there is a $ 1000 contract for 10 kittens at $ 100 each, and the client and the freelancer work well together for kittens 1 to 4, with the milestones released-  and then they have a falling out because freelancer delivers a puppy for milestone 5 - and client closes the contract asking for escrow funds  (of milestone 5 or more) back, then kittens 1 to 4 belong to the client. Kittens 5 to 10 do not. Puppy belongs to the client if paid for, to the freelancer if the escrow funds are returned.

 

By the above definition (the amount agreed upon in the contract) kittens 1 to 4 would not belong to the client because kittens 5 to 10, which were never delivered, weren't paid for and that would be wrong.


Yes, but if the freelancer delivers 10 kittens has oredered, the client has to pay for them in full.


Jennifer R wrote:

Petra R wrote:


Yes, but if the freelancer delivers all 10 kittens ...


cat lady.jpg

dzadza
Community Member

I wanted purple kittens - I'm not paying for these!!!
*requesting refund*

petra_r
Community Member


Sanja D wrote:

I wanted purple kittens - I'm not paying for these!!!
*requesting refund*


Resubmits...

 

purple.jpg

dzadza
Community Member

I'm really not in love with those....

...and that's the actual feedback I got from one of my clients right before he requested a refund, lol.   What is  making that more fun is - that was the only feedback I got from him!

so - nope - that's not the right color, lol

That are only 9.


Jennifer R wrote:

That are only 9.


Have you ever tried to get 10 kittens to pose together in one picture?

 

edit: Resubmit with 10

 

10.jpg


Petra R wrote:

Jennifer R wrote:

That are only 9.


Have you ever tried to get 10 kittens to pose together in one picture?


Maybe in front of your fish tank?

 

 I am still far more curious to know why the clients feedback is visible on the job page especially since it has been changed to 1*.


Jennifer R wrote:

 I am still far more curious to know why the clients feedback is visible on the job page


It always is

 

 

Edited to clarify: It always has been. When a feedback is removed, it always used to stay visible on the client (job post) side, but recently I have noticed that some (only) have been marked as invisible also on the client side.

 


Petra R wrote:

Jennifer R wrote:

 I am still far more curious to know why the clients feedback is visible on the job page


It always is

 

 

Edited to clarify: It always has been. When a feedback is removed, it always used to stay visible on the client (job post) side, but recently I have noticed that some (only) have been marked as invisible also on the client side.

 


I think calling some a scammer without any proof for it violates the ToS:

You may not use, or encourage, promote, facilitate, instruct or induce others to use, the Site or Site Services for any activities that violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation; for any other illegal or fraudulent purpose or any purpose that is harmful to others;

People see on  the project page that the clients calls the freelancer a scammer and the feedback has been removed on the freelancers page. A logical conlusion is that the feedback is true and the freelancer used his perk the remove it from his profile. If UW removed the feedback they should remove it everywhere.


Jennifer R wrote:

A logical conlusion is that the freelancer used his perk the remove it from his profile.

He did (use his perk.)

 

If Upwork had acted on the word "scammer" they would have edited the part that included it, not removed the whole feedback.

 

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