🐈
» Forums » Freelancers » Tricky Upwork client with additional contract
Page options
byteblaster
Community Member

Tricky Upwork client with additional contract

Hello. I have problem with client on Upwork.

Before starting contract client asked me to sign "statement of the work" which described detailed TODO's and milestones (with no due date and only with time to complete and they are significantly different from initial job description) with no termination clause and with no payment clause, only sums as described in Upwork’s job milestones. Client located in USA and I'm in Russia.

 

Basically the job is to develop firmware for custom USB headset. I really underestimated the job, it took 5 months instead of 1.5. Once I even proposed client to make a partial refund, but we agreed that I'll finish it.

 

Now code meets all requirements (maybe with some non major issues) from that document and client wants to remove echo on opponents side when talking with developed device, but there are no initial requirements for phone call quality, the only statement is "The user can make phone calls and listen to music using wired headphones." and this requirement is met. So I assume he wants this really hard work to be done for free and I think there will be something else. He constantly saying that I'm liar and not honest person and always trying to psychologically push me.

 

Client even do not agree on compromise with closing this job without last milestone payment. I know that by Upwork's policy for fixed price jobs I do not need to refund anything(edit: it's not always true). I've not sent last source code version to the client because I'm sure that he will not accept it, I've sent only binary for testing.

 

Other problem is additional document with milestones.

After I asked to clarify the list of issues, the client said again that I'm liar, obligated to do the work because I've started it and that he will write me whats wrong with my code and what I owe him(very emotionally).

 

So I have questions:

1. Is that statement of the work legal?

2. If yes, how to terminate it?

3. If I completed and was paid(significant remark: through Upwork) for 2/3 milestones, do I need to pay something back after termination?

4. Can this client behavior be treated as “debt bondage” and where I can report it?

5. What chances he have with this paper(photo) if he'll go to the court?

6. Generally, how can I protect me from this client and resolve that situation?

 

Thanks for attention.

ACCEPTED SOLUTION


Radmir K wrote:

Seems that I've missed the context: "You haven't submitted work and therefore the $1,000.00 in escrow will be returned to your client. 


 

Ah OK. PHEW!!!!

 

So. If you want to get out without the 3rd milestone ending the contract would give you a way out and the client should not be able to dispute the rest of the contract because there will be no money in escrow and the last milestone has been approved over 30 days ago!

 

I would still give the client all the work done to date, it's done and not as if you can use it for anything else.

View solution in original post

40 REPLIES 40
prestonhunter
Community Member

Radmir:

On Upwork, clients may end a contract at any time. For any reason. They don't even need to provide a reason.

 

On Upwork, freelancers may end a contract at any time. For any reason. They don't even need to provide a reason.

 

This is all very simple and straightforward. The only reason your situation may be more complex is if you signed an additional contract.

 

But basically: You live in Russia. The client does not. There is nothing he is going to do to you.

 

Also, there is definitely no Upwork rule about "continuing to work on a project until a client decides you can stop." That is certainly not a thing.

 

Also: If the client mentioned even one requirement or feature that he is "requiring" you to do, which isn't specified in writing in a milestone agreement, then the client is asking you to work for free. This is a violation of Upwork ToS. This would also mean that he is breaking any outside contract that he had with you.

 

For example, if the client is now saying that you have to do something about sound quality, but there was no mention of sound quality in your contract, then it is the client who is engaging in "scope creep," or asking for "out of scope" work. That is not at all allowed under fixed-price contracts.

 

I HAVE NOT TALKED to this client. I only have YOUR SIDE of the story.
But based on what you have told us here, it sounds to me like the client is shooting himself in the foot. Based on how you describe his treatment of you, it sounds to me like the client does not want you to work on his project any more, he doesn't want any kind of refund whatesoever, he doesn't want to receive any source code, and he doesn't even want you to continue communicating with him.

 

If I was the client, this is what I would do:
- I would apologize to the freelancer for my behavior

- I would explain to him that I am closing the contract now, with feedback that reflects my extremely high level of appreciation for the great work that he did.

- I would release any remaining escrow money.

- I would close the contract and leave accurate, appropriate, positive feedback

- Then I would ask the freelancer to send me all of the source code.

- I would archive the source code in a safe place.

- I would ask the freelancer if he would be willing to provide additional paid consultation on the project if I need his help, while explaining that I could set up a new hourly contract in order to pay him for all additional time, OR I could pre-pay him for his efforts using Bonus payments made using the now-closed contract... whichever the freelancer prefers.


In order for us to have better context, please answer these questions:

 

How much in total has the client paid you?

How much money is in the current milestone that has not yet been released?

3000 from total 4000 dollars, my bad that I've accepted to change from initial hourly job to fixed, I think Upwork must warn about this, because not only me was catched and fooled this way.

And I think such clients must not work on Upwork. Additionally to time loss and possible problems with law, I'll loose JSS(it is 100% now).

Radmir:
We don't know all the details of your situation.

Even if we did, we still couldn't tell you what to do.

Ultimately you need to be the one who decides what to do.

 

One thing we DO KNOW is how the Upwork user interface works.

So I can tell you that you could close the contract right now, and there is nothing that the client could do about it.

The client can not force you to continue working for him.

 

Keep in mind: If you really haven't provided the client with any source code, then you have some leverage.

Some tips for communicating with this client:
- don't argue with him

- be polite and professional at all times

- take your time

- don't respond to crazy talk

 

The client may need to be given clear, simple options.

 

Don't let the client get away with violating ANY UPWORK RULES.

 

It sounds like this client is violating serious Upwork rules/TOS and behaving atrociously. This client should be very fearful that he will receive nothing at all from you. If YOU had a sister, and she asked a baker to bake a beautiful, elaborate four-tier cake for your parents' anniversary celebration... And then you found out that that your sister was calling the baker a liar and demanding that the baker ALSO provide a 4-course dinner at the event at no extra cost, and was threatening the baker with legal action... Wouldn't YOU be afraid that the baker might not deliver a cake at all?

 

I say this as somebody who is pretty much always on "the cilent's side." I want clients to succeed with their hiring efforts on Upwork. I want THIS client to succeed. I want THIS client to receive all of the source code and be satisfied with his experience. But it sounds to me like the client is trying to sabotage his own project.

I know that I'll have no problems with Upwork and can close contract. The main problem is additional agreerment. What about code - it was shared through Github from the start and I've just not released that I've done in last month(significant bug fixing). Communication was really hard, I was not emotional, but it seems that he's ignoring me now and want's to play with my emotions threatening me with debt.

If he is ignoring you, that sounds like a good thing.

 

You could click the Send Work button.

If he ignored you and ignores this whole thing, then in 14 days all money in escrow will be released to automatically.

If I'll submit work, I must send code, but he will not accept it.

Let him make his list, if that is what he needs to do in order to make himself feel better.

 

You don't owe him anything.

You certainly shouldn't send him money. And you definitely shouldn't work for free.

 

You know what he originally asked you to do, and you know that he is now asking for all kinds of crazy things that were never in any agreement.

 

Don't communicate with him for now.

Wait until he sends you his list.

When he sends you his list, then thank him for the list. Tell him you will read over it carefully and get back to him with any questions. Then wait a week. After one week, send him one single question about a very trivial point.

 

Meanwhile, if you want to close the contract unilaterally, you may do so.

 

If you want to click the Submit Work button without sending him anything other than what was agreed to in the final milestone agreement, you may do so.

 

If that would mean losing all leverage because then he has all of the source code, then that is something to consider. It may be strategically more sensible to close the contract yourself, while releasing the remaining milestone money back to him.

 

Then, if he asks you for anything, you can point out that he has not paid for the latest work yet, and if he wants to communicate with you or ask you for anything else, the first thing he needs to do is send you $1000 to pay for the final milestone. He can't get the source code until he pays you for the work.

Preston, thank you for such detailed suggestions! Do you know are there any layers to ask about  situation with external contract? I'm interested also in that: if contract on Upwork is closed then SOW must be automatically terminated as it's part of the ontract, isn't it?

Radmir, I really can't advise you about that. I haven't read your external contracts. And I don't have any expertise in that area.

 

Do you know a lot of people in your community in Russia who have had Indian nationals possibly living in the United States go after them in similar circumstances? Maybe you could talk to them.

 

But I think the person who needs help more in this situation is the client. It sounds like he wants things, and does not realize that he is endangering the possibility of achieving his goals.

No, I don't know such people.

Thank you.

Radmir K wrote:

I know that by Upwork's policy for fixed price jobs I do not need to refund anything.


What makes you think that? If there is money in Escrow, or the last milestone has been released less than 30 days ago, the client can dispute the entire contract. (NOT just what is in Escrow)

 

I also don't necessarily agree with Preston's claim that expecting audio of usable quality (no echo) is "additional work". As far as the client is concerned, it seems to mean that that it's simply the originally asked for work of adequate quality. Saying "Oh well, the user can make calls and listen to music, so the brief is met even though the sound quality is compromised so much by echo that nobody hears a thing" is a bit of a cop-out which likely wont fly if this were to go to arbitration if dispute mediation fails.

Petra, I've read dispute policy again and seem's you are right, I was confused with some community topics about that.

 

Other problem that we agreed to do this project on hardware which is not able to do echo cancellation because of very limited CPU resources.


Radmir K wrote:

Petra, I've read dispute policy again and seem's you are right, I was confused with some community topics about that.


Yes.

 


Radmir K wrote:

Other problem that we agreed to do this project on hardware which is not able to do echo cancellation because of very limited CPU resources.


Be that as it may, I just wanted to point out that Preston's overly simplistic "client can't ask for X Y Z" is not necessarily how this could or indeed would play out if there is a dispute and the dispute goes to arbitration.

 

A key point at where this all went wrong is when the client asked the freelancer to switch from an hourly to a fixed-price contract. The freelancer said he made a mistake by agreeing to this. I agree.

 

This should have been an hourly contract all along.

 

By switching this to a fixed-price contract and then abusing the fixed-price contract model, the client has sabotaged the project. The client has a situation in which the freelancer doesn't want to work on the project any longer. The freelancer feels that he is being asked to work an excessive amount without compensation. The freelancer feels that any further association with this project will be detrimental to him.

 

The client seems to feel entitled to get everything he asks for, simply by virtue of typing out demands.

 

But how is the client going to force this professional, who has specialized skills, to work for him? He can't. It seems to me that paying someone to work would be a more effective strategy than typing demands or threatening them or calling them a liar.

 

The client needs this freelancer a lot more than this freelancer needs the client.

 

I want to help this client, but I don't know if he can be reached. He may be too far gone.


Petra R wrote:

Radmir K wrote:

Other problem that we agreed to do this project on hardware which is not able to do echo cancellation because of very limited CPU resources.


Be that as it may, I just wanted to point out that Preston's overly simplistic "client can't ask for X Y Z" is not necessarily how this could or indeed would play out if there is a dispute and the dispute goes to arbitration.

 


I was wondering about that as well. The client does sound like a nightmare and I would have ended the contract long before this point, but it doesn't seem (to me) that it's out-of-scope to fix something that results in a product being basically unusable. I mean, if I create a brochure design for a client and there's some bug that makes it print incorrectly, I would fix that for free and not say to the client, "Oh, you just asked for a design - you didn't specify that it had to be a high-quality design." Isn't that implied?

I agree that it's contraversional point, but it was not obvious for me and I think also for author of SOW that echo cancellation algorithm will be needed and that hardware we agreed to use is not capable to do that. There are standards for measuring phone call quality, SOW have no statement about requirements for this and even some modern VOIP applications are suffering from this issue sometimes. Hardware/software devlopment is just very complex thing.

Radmir: You are not responsible for the limitations of the hardware. The client may have legitimate complaints which he needs to take up with the hardware manufacturer.

 

It looks to me like the SOW was abandoned by the client long ago.

Yes, he sounds like "you've failed deadlines, you must do it for free"

Radmir:

 

This client has dug himself into a deep hole. I don't know if he will ever be able to get out of the hole he is in.

 

Of course you shouldn't be working for free for him.

 

The sooner this contract is closed, the better it will be for you.

 

If you want to continue working for him, it should only be done using a new, hourly contract.

Seems that he have option to go to arbitration and have chance to refund money for entire contract as Petra said.

And there is a little chance that he will go to court about that.

 

I think that such things must be regulated by Upwork's support, I've created a ticket and I hope they will help.


Radmir K wrote:

Seems that he have option to go to arbitration and have chance to refund money for entire contract as Petra said.

And there is a little chance that he will go to court about that.

 

I think that such things must be regulated by Upwork's support, I've created a ticket and I hope they will help.


No, Upwork can not decide in a dispute. They can only mediate, and if mediation does not lead to an agreement or a compromise, you'd have to go to arbitration (at a cost of $ 291 per party)

 

There was no point contacting Support because at this point the client hasn't even disputed yet so I don't really understand what you expect support to do! 

The client almost certainly won't "go to court" - it would be way more expensive than what he could possibly get.

 

Personally I would probably try to talk to the client one last time, but if that fails I'd hand the client everything that has been done so far, including all code, politely wish the client well and tell them I am no longer available and walk away at this point. The client may or may not dispute and the dispute may or may not go as far as arbitration becoming the only possible last resort. But there comes a point of no return and you sound like you've reached yours. 

I also think that he will not go, just theoretical possibility.

What about support, I understand, we need to pay for arbitration.


Radmir K wrote:

I also think that he will not go, just theoretical possibility, if he is very principal.

What about support, I understand, we need to pay for arbitration.


Support can't help. *IF* there is a dispute, the dispute team get in touch. If dispute mediation fails, the dispute team would offer arbitration.

 

When was the second milestone released to you by the way? (How long ago?)

 

3 months ago

 

Yes, I've filed a dispute


Radmir K wrote:

3 months ago


OK. But there were 3 milestones, right? And the last (third) is currently funded in Escrow? 

 

If not, tell me when the last (previous) milestone has been released?

 

Radmir K wrote:

Yes, I've filed a dispute


Why would you have filed a dispute? Why did you do that? What about???

You haven't even submitted work for payment of the last milestone? 

 

 

 

 

yes, the last one is still in Escrow

 

I haven't submitted.

Filed a dispute because I need someone to can help to resolve conflict, seems that it's not correct reason.


Radmir K wrote:

yes, the last one is still in Escrow


OK. If you want out of the contract without the client being able to dispute the first two milestones, if there is NO dispute yet, you can close the contract and walk away.

 

The last milestone would go back to the client, but that would be the end of it and the client could NOT dispute the first 2/3 because the client can only dispute within 30 days of the release of the last milestone OR if there is still money in escrow. 

 

However, once a dispute is created, the whole contract becomes subject to arbitration should it come to that.

 

If there is no disputes in "My disputes", does it mean that not me nor client have not filed a dispute? I've sent only request with "dispute" reason and support team replied someting like "there is no reason" and closed the ticket.

That means there is no dispute at the moment.

 

It really depends on what you want. If you feel confident that you are in the right as far as the quality and duration of the work are concerned, you would stand a decent chance at arbitration. However, you could lose the money in escrow, the arbitration fee AND the money you've  already been paid, fully or in part.

 

Or you could just draw a line under the who thing, close the contract, and walk away. Give the client everythig that was done to date, and draw a line under the whole thing.

 

When I'm pressing "close contract" there is a message "Once approved, the client will release the funds in escrow to you or if they are unresponsive, you will receive the funds held in escrow after 14 days."

Does it mean that until he's not approved this he can file a dispute?

 

Is there any reason to give him latest source code? Anyway I'll receive bad feedback.


Radmir K wrote:

When I'm pressing "close contract" there is a message "Once approved, the client will release the funds in escrow to you or if they are unresponsive, you will receive the funds held in escrow after 14 days."

Does it mean that until he's not approved this he can file a dispute?


WOW - I have never seen that!!  DON'T end the contract, this must be a new thing. Previously, when you ended a contract with funds in Escrow, those funds simply went straight back to the client!

 

Did you previously request payment for that milestone?

I wish Upwork didn't mess about with and change processes this way without letting us know.

 

Yes, it means the client can dispute as there is still money in Escrow....

No, I haven't requested payment.

Seems that I've missed the context: "You haven't submitted work and therefore the $1,000.00 in escrow will be returned to your client. Upload your work files to get your client's approval and avoid this refund.

Once approved, the client will release the funds in escrow to you or if they are unresponsive, you will receive the funds held in escrow after 14 days.
"


Radmir K wrote:

Seems that I've missed the context: "You haven't submitted work and therefore the $1,000.00 in escrow will be returned to your client. 


 

Ah OK. PHEW!!!!

 

So. If you want to get out without the 3rd milestone ending the contract would give you a way out and the client should not be able to dispute the rest of the contract because there will be no money in escrow and the last milestone has been approved over 30 days ago!

 

I would still give the client all the work done to date, it's done and not as if you can use it for anything else.

I've been called "little thief" for that. And received message about that I will return money or deliver obligation fully.

You ended the contract?

It's over.

The client is getting the last milestone back, and can't dispute anything else.

 

Onwards and Upwards.

On upwork yes

Radmir:

I am sorry that you had to go through this.
I wish you well with this.

 

I think anybody reading this thread can learn some things - both freelancers and clients.

Support wrote me letter about that I need to contact him and resolve issues. Am I violating TOS?

Latest Articles
Featured Topics
Learning Paths