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williambernal
Community Member

Upwork Terms of Use violations

In Upwork's Terms of Use there is a very specific instruction-

"4.1 EXAMPLES OF PROHIBITED USES OF THE SITE

The following are examples of uses that are prohibited on the Site or when using the Site Services: 

Fraudulent or misleading uses or content, including:

Misrepresenting your experience, skills, or INFORMATION"

 

Despite this very clear instruction I cannot count the number of times clients are allowed to deliberately use intentionally misleading deadline information, such as- 

"URGENT, NEED TODAY"

"Need xxxx tonight"

"Must deliver in the next 3 hours" etc, etc, etc. and ad nauseum.

 

After the vast majority of these jobs go abandoned (0 interviews, 0 hires) for days and then weeks and are subsequently flagged multiple times, I typically report these cases to the "Help" Center.

The cut & paste response I ALWAYS receive is-

"I've escalated your concern about the reported client and his/her job post to our Marketplace quality team and upon their inspection, they haven't found enough evidence to sanction the client for violation against Upwork's Terms of service."

 

While delibrately ignorant, incredibly lazy, totally apathetic and completely ignoring all professional obligations of "Help & Support", in the past I've let it ride.

 

Now, however, CONNECTS COST MONEY.

Due to this economic reality, the Upwork "Help" Center needs to step it up and provide a higher level of service and a much more active commitment to "maintaining a safe and thriving online workspace."

 

I have to believe that the Upwork Terms of Use exist for a reason and that reason cannot be solely to cater to the whims of fraudulent clients.

I also realize I may be the only one who feels this way.

 

Work smart, work safe!

 

 

 

 

 

 

ACCEPTED SOLUTION
kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi William,

 

Thank you for raising your concerns about these types of posts again. As was stated in the support tickets, we do not agree with your interpretation that these jobs are in violation of the Terms of Service. While we work tirelessly to keep Upwork safe and free from fraud, we do not guarantee that we will remove content simply because it is potentially subject to an interpretation that it violates the Terms of Service. Upwork explicitly reserves the right, but is not obligated, to remove content that other users complain about.  As is explained in the Terms of Use:
 
We reserve the right, but do not assume the obligation, to investigate any potential violation of this Section 4 or any other potential violation of these Site Terms of Use and to remove, disable access to, or modify any content on the Site.... We do not guarantee we will take action against all breaches of these Terms of Use or the User Agreement.
To be clear, we do not agree with your interpretation on these types of posts since the failure to engage a freelancer could be due to a number of factors (for example, perhaps there were no viable candidates within the deadline). In addition, we do not believe they are harmful to the community.  Therefore, we do not now and have no plans in future to remove them. We suggest that you avoid these types of posts in the future if you are concerned about the intention of the client.   
~ Valeria
Upwork

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19 REPLIES 19
prestonhunter
Community Member

William:

Are you saying that at this point, you are no longer interested in sending proposals to job postings which state that they are for urgent tasks?

 

That is certainly your right.

Just as other freelancers have a right to make a different decision.

 

Many of the jobs I post specifically state that I want somebody to work with me "right now," and I typically hire the first applicant and then close the job posting. This is a very effective way to hire quickly. I have come to appreciate a large number of excellent freelancers who specifically look for these types of urgent, short-term jobs.

 

Maybe quality freelancers are willing to send proposals to my job postings because they see my stats as a client and they know I have an extremely high hire-rate.

 

It is fine if that is not your niche.

PH,

 

I'm saying that you are certainly in the extreme minority of legitimate clients who actually require services, "right now", and therefore are actually serious about hiring.

In my 8 years of experience, I would suggest that over 80% of such "right now" clients are scammers trolling for entirely fraudulent purposes of their own.

 

I  trust that any experienced FL is well aware of such fraudulent behaviour, but many inexperienced FL's may not be so circumspect.

This information was for the benefit of the latter.

 

Work smart, work safe!

Good advice.

 

Not much can be done about new clients. But if a client has a history... freelancers can look at their hire rate as well as their past job feedback and average feedback scores to freelancers... All of which can help freelancers decide if the client is somebody whose job is one they should apply to.

P,

 

Yes.

We are in agreement.

 

Hopefully some specific understanding of the ToU will also help all FL's know how to take positive action towards helping to maintain a safe and thriving online workspace.

 

I may be mistaken, but I believe the "Help" Center is there to...help, as well?

Hi Will,

 

I've picked up a number of jobs which have been described by the client as urgent. They havn't been scammers and there has been no misinformation.

 

Even if they hadn't hired me or anyone else via Upwork, why would that mean that jobs were not genuine?

RS,

 

As have I.

The crucial passage that perhaps you missed was-

"After the vast majority of these jobs go abandoned (0 interviews, 0 hires) for days and then weeks and are subsequently flagged multiple times, I typically report these cases to the "Help" Center. "

 

I'm sure we all understand that if I hire a plumber to fix my toilet at his earliest availability, then I'll have to pay a certain price.

If I hire that same plumber (or any plumber) to fix my toilet RIGHT NOW/TONIGHT...then I must be prepared to pay a very, very different price.

 

The issue, like the UW Terms of Use, is unmistakably, undeniably clear.

Whether any of us care about or choose to honor such standards appears to be a matter of UW debate.

 

Work smart, work safe!

(and keep your UW "support" expectations very, very low)

 

 


william b wrote:

RS,

 

As have I.

The crucial passage that perhaps you missed was-

"After the vast majority of these jobs go abandoned (0 interviews, 0 hires) for days and then weeks and are subsequently flagged multiple times, I typically report these cases to the "Help" Center. "

 

I'm sure we all understand that if I hire a plumber to fix my toilet at his earliest availability, then I'll have to pay a certain price.

If I hire that same plumber (or any plumber) to fix my toilet RIGHT NOW/TONIGHT...then I must be prepared to pay a very, very different price.

 

The issue, like the UW Terms of Use, is unmistakably, undeniably clear.

Whether any of us care about or choose to honor such standards appears to be a matter of UW debate.

 

Work smart, work safe!

(and keep your UW "support" expectations very, very low)

 

 


Good, then you know that some (if not all) of these posts are genuine. I honestly don't understand your criticism of UW simply because you didn't 'win' the tasks you are applying for, or because no one is hired through the site. Maybe the job was cancelled, maybe they hired on a different site, maybe no one that applied was considered suitable for the work? 

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi William,

 

Thank you for raising your concerns about these types of posts again. As was stated in the support tickets, we do not agree with your interpretation that these jobs are in violation of the Terms of Service. While we work tirelessly to keep Upwork safe and free from fraud, we do not guarantee that we will remove content simply because it is potentially subject to an interpretation that it violates the Terms of Service. Upwork explicitly reserves the right, but is not obligated, to remove content that other users complain about.  As is explained in the Terms of Use:
 
We reserve the right, but do not assume the obligation, to investigate any potential violation of this Section 4 or any other potential violation of these Site Terms of Use and to remove, disable access to, or modify any content on the Site.... We do not guarantee we will take action against all breaches of these Terms of Use or the User Agreement.
To be clear, we do not agree with your interpretation on these types of posts since the failure to engage a freelancer could be due to a number of factors (for example, perhaps there were no viable candidates within the deadline). In addition, we do not believe they are harmful to the community.  Therefore, we do not now and have no plans in future to remove them. We suggest that you avoid these types of posts in the future if you are concerned about the intention of the client.   
~ Valeria
Upwork

VK,

 

Of course Upwork (or you) need ever "assume the obligation" of maintaining a safe and thriving online workspace, and you may always choose to ignore intentional, deliberate and/or obvious violations of the ToU along with repeated, ongoing fraud.

But to be clear, this is no subjective "interpretation" of Upwork's very clear, reasonable, strictly legal Terms that will explain this ignorance.

 

As I specifically mentioned, in far too many cases post information is egregiously misleading and obviously fraudulent. (as time tells)

UW and the UW "Help & Support" Center (and you, apparently) can either choose to honor its own Terms, or choose to blithely ignore their own strict definitions in favor of dodging all professional responsibility. 

As FLs we can all do the same.

 

It goes without saying that this constitutes a stunningly arrogant amount of professional apathy to maintain.

The very good news is that when we are all out of work, we won't have to wonder why it happened.

 

Thanks so much for your diligent efforts in that direction.

 

 

Upworks' ToS documents are intended to be helpful. They can be informative and helpful for Upwork users, such as clients and freelancers. They can be helpful for Upwork itself.

 

But publicly posted ToS documents do not "govern" Upwork. Upwork is a website and it functions based on software source code as well as based on how Upwork's employees operate the site.

 

The same is true of every website.

Preston,

 

What a disappointing response from a CG whose advice I greatly value.

 

In my country (USA) we're learning that the nauseating, duplicitous equivocation of- 

"Yes, we could do something to alleviate this terrible situation we've created which flies directly in the face of our most vital written values...but we're not obligated to do so."

ALWAYS leads directly to disatrous results FOR EVERYONE!

 

When we knowingly and actively flout our own best values in order to serve our own selfish, short-term interests, it ALWAYS leads to a collapse at every level, with the ones on the bottom of course getting the worst of it.

The pitiful rationalization of- 

"Well, everybody does it this way..."

is not only an embarrassing distortion, it's equivalent to pleading ethical bankruptcy.

 

In the professional world, this kind of business/cultural shell game always leads directly to actual bankruptcy. (choose youur US example for many but start at Wall Street)

 

I believe we can all do a little better.

 

 

William:

I'm not making any kind of moral judgement. I'm simply describing mechanics:

 

A website's functionality is a product of source code and database data.

 

The experiences that a site's users have with customer service personnel are based on the behavior of those personnel.

 

Websites can "read" and "understand" things such as PHP source code or Apache directives. Websites can not "read" or "understand" human-intended text, including legalese presented as ToS.

 

Nothing untoward or controversial is intended by pointing this out.

 

These observations have nothing to do with how Upwork or any of its representatives or any other company "should" act.

 

I think you may have sensed a difference of opinion when there was none.

P,

 

OK. 

I clearly do not understand any point you were trying to make regarding source code and database data (or even if you were trying to make one).

I trust, however, that my point is perfectly clear. (and at the very least, as clear as UW's Terms of Use)

 

I'm always happy to agree to disagree with you.

Or just agree as the case may be.

 

VK,

 

If you do not believe that obvious, intentional and deliberate fraud is "harmful to the community"  then clearly all of our UW days are numbered.

 

Thanks for all your professional efforts towards maintaining a safe and thriving online workspace!

VK,

 

Of course Upwork (or you) need not ever "assume the obligation" of maintaining a safe and thriving online workspace, and you may always choose to ignore intentional, deliberate and/or obvious violations of the ToU along with repeated, ongoing fraud.

But to be clear, there is no subjective "interpretation" of Upwork's very clear, reasonable, strictly legal Terms that will explain this willful ignorance.

 

As I specifically mentioned, in far too many cases post information is egregiously misleading and obviously fraudulent. (as time tells)

UW and the UW "Help & Support" Center (and you, apparently) can either choose to honor its own Terms, or choose to blithely ignore their own strict definitions in favor of dodging all professional responsibility. 

As FLs we can all do the same.

 

It goes without saying that this constitutes a stunningly arrogant amount of professional apathy to maintain.

The very good news is that when we are all out of work, we won't have to wonder why it happened.

 

Thanks so much for your diligent efforts in that direction.

Frequently, Upwork staff posts interpretations of their TOS that seem to have required them to read the sentences in a random order after having been translated through six languages and then tossed into a blender. Some of those interpretations appear to me to be blatant violations of the law (as I've posted here about more than one discussion of terms).

 

This is not that. The interpretation suggested by OP stretches the interpretation of "information" far enough that it would snap, curl up, and shoot up into the stars like something Wile E Coyote rigged up. 

 

It's one thing to suggest that Upwork SHOULD second-guess whether clients mean what they say in job postings (FWIW, I personally think they should absolutely not)--that's a matter of opinion. The terms thing, not so much. 

rafsun_ug
Community Member

A few months ago, I won a job which was described boldly as "Need Today", also the job was described very well in the post! Obviously, I would not apply if there wasn't a clear description! And after sending him the proposal, he responded within probably 10 minutes and after a few minutes of the interview, he sent the offer. I did his job within 6 hours, he released the fund and ended the job with a wonderful feedback. And I still often work with him.
So, it might be fraud sometimes. At the same time, a client might truly need something urgently! We don't know it. But we can check the client's hire rate!


Rafsun S wrote:

A few months ago, I won a job which was described boldly as "Need Today", also the job was described very well in the post! Obviously, I would not apply if there wasn't a clear description! And after sending him the proposal, he responded within probably 10 minutes and after a few minutes of the interview, he sent the offer. I did his job within 6 hours, he released the fund and ended the job with a wonderful feedback. And I still often work with him.
So, it might be fraud sometimes. At the same time, a client might truly need something urgently! We don't know it. But we can check the client's hire rate!


I also have made some great money on urgent job posts. I have also avoided them when I can't make those deadlines. 

 

As a client, if I posted someone that I needed today, there could be all sorts of reasons that I do not hire. Maybe I posted on numerous sites and someone else on one of those sites was the best fit. Maybe something happened to me and I can no longer do my part on the work. Maybe something happened workwise that made me realize that even if a FL was available, it was no longer feasible for my company to do this work. Maybe my grandma died. 

 

The fact that no one hires on a job does not make it fraud, even if they felt they needed someone urgently. Clients post jobs on what they think they need at the time. When a FL shows up that they like, they may very well choose/suggest a different structure than originally planned to better fit the working relationship. This is also not fraud. This is called negotiation. 

 

We would all like Upwork to do more to identify fradulent postings, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

hassan-monzur_al
Community Member

Hi William,

Thank you for raising this topic to understand. Hope it is helpful for me.

Best Regards,

Monzur

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